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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5741 - 2015-11-17 21:58:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Levi Belvar wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
That the seller must pay AUR doesn't contradict that the buyer only pays isk. Thus at no point can you say the proposal offers SP for cash.
To sell an item requires a seller and buyer to complete a transaction.

Transaction . An agreement between a buyer and a seller to exchange goods, services or financial recompense.

So seeing as you can't have one without the other then it is Skillpoints for cash.
So we have 2 separate transactions, one not involving the buyer, and one involving the buyer. The former involves AUR, the latter does not.

The buyer at no point needs to interact with AUR or cash to participate. If we want to include every transaction that at one point included exchange to a AUR/Cash item every item bought by the recipient of isk for PLEX becomes a "cash" item by virtue of rl PLEX cost.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5742 - 2015-11-17 22:00:20 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

So seeing as you can't have one without the other then it is Skillpoints for cash.

Follow your logic I know another item that already gives you skillpoints for cash.

Nobody has ever denied the bazaar is the same thing in principal but was introduced to counter RMT, this is just blatantly doing it and also introducing yet another way TO RMT as well.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5743 - 2015-11-17 22:02:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Levi Belvar wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

So seeing as you can't have one without the other then it is Skillpoints for cash.

Follow your logic I know another item that already gives you skillpoints for cash.

Nobody has ever denied the bazaar is the same thing in principal but was introduced to counter RMT, this is just blatantly doing it and also introducing yet another way TO RMT as well.

You don't even have to go to the Bazaar for this one, PLEX qualifies here. 30 days of SP per PLEX, just with some added wait time.

What this does do though is reduce the entry point for Bazaar like participation from the several billion range, making smaller amounts of SP more accessible, reducing the need for isk based RMT (whether legally through PLEX or otherwise).
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5744 - 2015-11-17 22:03:54 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
That the seller must pay AUR doesn't contradict that the buyer only pays isk. Thus at no point can you say the proposal offers SP for cash.
To sell an item requires a seller and buyer to complete a transaction.

Transaction . An agreement between a buyer and a seller to exchange goods, services or financial recompense.

So seeing as you can't have one without the other then it is Skillpoints for cash.
So we have 2 separate transactions, one not involving the buyer, and one involving the buyer. The former involves AUR, the latter does not.

The buyer at no point needs to interact with AUR or cash to participate. If we want to include every transaction that at one point included exchange to a AUR/Cash item every item bought by the recipient of isk for PLEX becomes a "cash" item by virtue of rl PLEX cost.

You cannot create the TSP without the aurum puchase ergo the sale of the extractor filled which is the TSP has needed to be purchased out of game.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5745 - 2015-11-17 22:05:38 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

So seeing as you can't have one without the other then it is Skillpoints for cash.

Follow your logic I know another item that already gives you skillpoints for cash.

Nobody has ever denied the bazaar is the same thing in principal but was introduced to counter RMT, this is just blatantly doing it and also introducing yet another way TO RMT as well.

You don't even have to go to the Bazaar for this one, PLEX qualifies here. 30 days of SP per PLEX, just with some added wait time.

What this does do though is reduce the entry point for Bazaar like participation from the several billion range, making smaller amounts of SP more accessible, reducing the need for isk based RMT (whether legally through PLEX or otherwise).

Without the wait time ( Time investment ) it just has an isk value.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5746 - 2015-11-17 22:06:50 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
You cannot create the TSP without the aurum puchase ergo the sale of the extractor filled which is the TSP has needed to be purchased out of game.
Sure, by the seller, not the buyer. The buyer again cannot exchange cash for SP. Someone else does to make it available, but you literally cannot give cash and get SP.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5747 - 2015-11-17 22:11:12 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
You cannot create the TSP without the aurum puchase ergo the sale of the extractor filled which is the TSP has needed to be purchased out of game.
Sure, by the seller, not the buyer. The buyer again cannot exchange cash for SP. Someone else does to make it available, but you literally cannot give cash and get SP.

So to complete 1 transaction needs a out of game cash purchase for the sale to be completed.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5748 - 2015-11-17 22:11:39 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Without the wait time ( Time investment ) it just has an isk value.
I'm not sure whether you're trying to disagree here, but that's exactly what I said. The irony here is that you consider this "just (has) an isk value", despite originating from real money, yet seem to be arguing that TSPs have an effective cash value.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5749 - 2015-11-17 22:14:06 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
You cannot create the TSP without the aurum puchase ergo the sale of the extractor filled which is the TSP has needed to be purchased out of game.
Sure, by the seller, not the buyer. The buyer again cannot exchange cash for SP. Someone else does to make it available, but you literally cannot give cash and get SP.

So to complete 1 transaction needs a out of game cash purchase for the sale to be completed.
No, to complete 2 transactions that is needed. The purchase of an extractor is not one and the same as the sale of a packet. The former is needed for the latter, but doesn't itself necessitate the latter.

Thus the buyer is completely abstracted from the AUR purchase. There is no way for them to exchange cash for SP.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5750 - 2015-11-17 22:14:17 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Levi Belvar wrote:

Without the wait time ( Time investment ) it just has an isk value.

If you know method to earn isk without time investments than let me know too.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5751 - 2015-11-17 22:20:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
You cannot create the TSP without the aurum puchase ergo the sale of the extractor filled which is the TSP has needed to be purchased out of game.
Sure, by the seller, not the buyer. The buyer again cannot exchange cash for SP. Someone else does to make it available, but you literally cannot give cash and get SP.

So to complete 1 transaction needs a out of game cash purchase for the sale to be completed.
No, to complete 2 transactions that is needed. The purchase of an extractor is not one and the same as the sale of a packet. The former is needed for the latter, but doesn't itself necessitate the latter.

Thus the buyer is completely abstracted from the AUR purchase. There is no way for them to exchange cash for SP.

No i mean skillpoints for cash. If you could just whip 500k out of your skull into a hangar then sell it on the market for isk that would be pay2advance but nothing else.

For the sale of a TSP each one needs a purchase ( Extractor ) out of game to be able to be sold on.

You have to pay CCP a surcharge for the privilege of speed training is that more understandable to you.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5752 - 2015-11-17 22:23:37 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

Without the wait time ( Time investment ) it just has an isk value.

If you know method to earn isk without time investments than let me know too.

For a gobshite like you, go join your other buddies round jita scrounging. Thats more up your alley and requires no skills

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5753 - 2015-11-17 22:30:04 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
No i mean skillpoints for cash.
No, it isn't. I can't exchange cash for SP. I can only exchange cash for the ability to extract SP I already have. I can exchange isk for SP, provided someone who extracted it makes it available, but that they spent cash/AUR/PLEX/or even isk to someone who gave it to another player who introduced one of the prior items in exchange, doesn't mean a player, as a buyer, needs to interact with real money in any way shape or form.

Levi Belvar wrote:
If you could just whip 500k out of your skull into a hangar then sell it on the market for isk that would be pay2advance but nothing else.
No, that wouldn't be pay for anything unless you want to make the argument that everything in the in game market is "pay for 'x'". At that point we're getting ridiculous though.

Levi Belvar wrote:
For the sale of a TSP each one needs a purchase ( Extractor ) out of game to be able to be sold on.
And still the buyer is abstracted from that, they don't need to pay any real currency or AUR to consume SP. In truth they cannot do so.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5754 - 2015-11-17 22:33:07 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
No i mean skillpoints for cash.
No, it isn't. I can't exchange cash for SP. I can only exchange cash for the ability to extract SP I already have. I can exchange isk for SP, provided someone who extracted it makes it available, but that they spent cash/AUR/PLEX/or even isk to someone who gave it to another player who introduced one of the prior items in exchange, doesn't mean a player, as a buyer, needs to interact with real money in any way shape or form.

Levi Belvar wrote:
If you could just whip 500k out of your skull into a hangar then sell it on the market for isk that would be pay2advance but nothing else.
No, that wouldn't be pay for anything unless you want to make the argument that everything in the in game market is "pay for 'x'". At that point we're getting ridiculous though.

Levi Belvar wrote:
For the sale of a TSP each one needs a purchase ( Extractor ) out of game to be able to be sold on.
And still the buyer is abstracted from that, they don't need to pay any real currency or AUR to consume SP. In truth they cannot do so.

You have to pay CCP a surcharge for the privilege of speed training is that more understandable to you.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5755 - 2015-11-17 22:35:00 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Levi Belvar wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

Without the wait time ( Time investment ) it just has an isk value.

If you know method to earn isk without time investments than let me know too.

For a gobshite like you, go join your other buddies round jita scrounging. Thats more up your alley and requires no skills

Hey are you just switched terms "time" and "skills"? I asked not about skill but time investments. That is not cool, dude... not cool.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5756 - 2015-11-17 22:39:17 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

Without the wait time ( Time investment ) it just has an isk value.

If you know method to earn isk without time investments than let me know too.

For a gobshite like you, go join your other buddies round jita scrounging. Thats more up your alley and requires no skills

Hey are you just swiched terms "time" and "skills"? I asked not about skill but time investments. That is not cool, dude... not cool.

well with all the time you spend in stations spinning waiting for you skills to train you can still beg so still suites your playstyle of doing nothing to earn.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5757 - 2015-11-17 22:41:05 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
You have to pay CCP a surcharge for the privilege of speed training is that more understandable to you.
Maybe you should stop trying to characterize your series of falsehoods as others not understanding.

As an SP buyer there is no surcharge I can pay for buying SP in cash or AUR. In isk to cover what someone considers the "equivalent" cost? Sure, but that's the same as any and all such transactions in place (Bazaar, PLEX, special offer items and every NEX/NES item) and further that doesn't go to CCP, but the player assessing the charge. I still myself have no need to interact with the AUR or cash systems.

There is nothing even remotely hard to understand about that.
Vahligmarr
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#5758 - 2015-11-17 22:45:50 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
You cannot create the TSP without the aurum puchase ergo the sale of the extractor filled which is the TSP has needed to be purchased out of game.
Sure, by the seller, not the buyer. The buyer again cannot exchange cash for SP. Someone else does to make it available, but you literally cannot give cash and get SP.



No matter how often you twist it, its linked to RMT by design, so its an additional RMT to bypass a game mechanic = Advantage. It's turning an already expensive game, into a subscription / free to play hybrid...


(I bet it will lead to stuff like purchasable starter and premium packs, like frigate, cruiser, battleship packs with all the skills you need in them. Starter pack, 12.99 $ cheap, premium pack, only 20.99 $... "the power of three", buy three starter packs, you get one premium pack for free.... awesome game)
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5759 - 2015-11-17 22:46:48 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Levi Belvar wrote:

well with all the time you spend in stations spinning waiting for you skills to train you can still beg so still suites your playstyle of doing nothing to earn.

Nope. You made same mistake.

My point is that isk require time to earn. Feel free to disprove it. So time is necessary thing even when you buying TSP.

Now my turn to call you a parrot?

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5760 - 2015-11-17 22:48:57 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
You have to pay CCP a surcharge for the privilege of speed training is that more understandable to you.
Maybe you should stop trying to characterize your series of falsehoods as others not understanding.

As an SP buyer there is no surcharge I can pay for buying SP in cash or AUR. In isk to cover what someone considers the "equivalent" cost? Sure, but that's the same as any and all such transactions in place (Bazaar, PLEX, special offer items and every NEX/NES item) and further that doesn't go to CCP, but the player assessing the charge. I still myself have no need to interact with the AUR or cash systems.

There is nothing even remotely hard to understand about that.

If they were available now to buy and you were the only person selling them. I wanted 10 off you but you say to me the skill points are fine but i can't buy anything out of game i dont have the resources for that .Can you complete my contract of 10 between you and me.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”