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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5701 - 2015-11-16 21:00:02 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Don ZOLA wrote:

You quoted my post which had clearly stated quote where it was visible that we are discussing about THIS topic. Yet you have decided to spam more and comment on something we did not even mention.

"Just giving more depth in your thought" as you might say. If you found my posts irrelevant than you could just ignore them.
Don ZOLA wrote:
I am not sure if you actually went behind and saw how many of your posts got deleted. If that ain`t clear message about quality of your posts then I doubt anyone can draw it for you :)

Funny that you mention it. Your previous "proof" had erased but my post still there.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#5702 - 2015-11-16 21:13:28 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:

You quoted my post which had clearly stated quote where it was visible that we are discussing about THIS topic. Yet you have decided to spam more and comment on something we did not even mention.

"Just giving more depth in your thought" as you might say. If you found my posts irrelevant than you could just ignore them.
Don ZOLA wrote:
I am not sure if you actually went behind and saw how many of your posts got deleted. If that ain`t clear message about quality of your posts then I doubt anyone can draw it for you :)

Funny that you mention it. Your previous "proof" had erased but my post still there.


Your posts are mostly irrelevant, but sometimes I do not feel like letting bs be spread around as I find this issue/topic quite important considering all side effects the change will bring. As you stated before, you are pushing this for some personal reasons and I am pushing this because of my concerns for the game. So, even though I do not post that much, I still will point out now and then on lies, bs, wrong understandings, logical fallacies etc.

And that deleted post of mine which was deleted because it is kinda off topic as I have drawn for you the IAAF rules etc to explain you on how many levels you are wrong. But CCP did not let me school you and have it stay there. So you will have to google it on your own and find why you are wrong (we both know it will not happen ;) )

On the other side we have way more of yours being deleted, which proves my point about your contribution here, or better to say lack of it.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5703 - 2015-11-16 21:39:48 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Don ZOLA wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Great idea CCP +1 thanks for opening the game up a bit more to allow more people to enjoy themselves.

Will probably be looked back as one of the greatest changes EvE ever made once all the tin-foil hat doomsday preppers realize this isn't Y2K.


Except it will not happen, no matter how much you spam without any real arguments. Even if it happens, you would not play for too long before the game dies. Lose-Lose scenario for you :/

Interesting that you call spammer only those who pro but no one who agianst. You don't bother even if they present their opinions without any arguments. Are you replying only on "spam" which you don't like?

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Doddy
Excidium.
#5704 - 2015-11-16 22:08:08 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:

If a farm is plex'd its using in game currency to keep it going, If its being subbed the only thing your going to expend on is the extractor everything else is profit. To sub a month is $15 / £9.99 to plex is equivalent to $25 / £16.99 big difference.

So your saying that even though the plex gives a base price alone for your skill points - TSP pilots are just going to make up some random figure to sell them at ???


They are going to sell them for what they can get for them.... What part of supply and demand do you not understand?

It is like any product in any market which can be produced (sp which is farmed), but is also created as a by-product by another process (sp which has become unwanted). The by-product will make normal production unprofitable if demand is not high, and will always depress price. Easy in game example is tier 1 modules, people who picked them up ratting would sell them for less than people could build them for, therefore people stopped building them. Simples. People did not decide not to sell thier t1 loot because it was below build price.

In what world does somebody who has decided they want to cash in 10 mil of industry sp they don't use going look at 240 mil/TSP and think "outrageous, it should be 250mil because that is how much a farmer could make it for" and not sell it? Nobody will think that, they will follow the market, and in doing so the farmers profit margin is gone.

The discrepancy between plex and direct paid sub does give a subbed farmer more leeway, it is still far from "all profit". (It also shows why even by your own reasoning a months of SP is not worth a plex, since it could just as well be worth the sub price.)

They spend £9.99 on a sub and however much 4 extractors will cost (say £7 for simplicity, could be more or less) -> 1 month later they get 4 TSP they can sell for whatever the market value of isk 4 TSP is worth.

They spend £16.99 on a plex and they can sell it now for 1 Billion

They only make a profit over selling plex if TSP price stays over 1/4 of a plex. There is also a months delay, during which time SP dumping could push the price below 1/4 plex but the farmer is already committed. So it always has higher risk than just selling the plex.

Whether farming is profitable is entirely decided whether there are more people willing to sell TSP for less than 1/4 plex or more willing to buy them for more than 1/4 plex. It is soley down to supply and demand of SP. The only base cost is the cost of the extractor. The value of plex is irrelevant other than deciding the point farming will become profitable.

Obviously if demand is extreme CCP might need to limit it, but that is rather straight forward.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#5705 - 2015-11-16 22:12:56 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Great idea CCP +1 thanks for opening the game up a bit more to allow more people to enjoy themselves.

Will probably be looked back as one of the greatest changes EvE ever made once all the tin-foil hat doomsday preppers realize this isn't Y2K.


Except it will not happen, no matter how much you spam without any real arguments. Even if it happens, you would not play for too long before the game dies. Lose-Lose scenario for you :/

Interesting that you call spammer only those who pro but no one who agianst. You don't bother even if they present their opinions without any arguments. Are you replying only on "spam" which you don't like?


If you look at the people who I have challenged the most, you will notice a pattern. As I already mentioned, Dror is quite pro this option and he did post a lot but I did not put him in the group with you, Dave, Divine intervention etc. There were others who did post a lot but I did not call them spammers. Maybe I dont like their opinions and think they are wrong but they have tried to field some arguments instead of just spamming and making "noise". With some of them I have discussed, with some I did not, depending how valuable I find their input and logic behind it.

Thanks for adding post by divine intervention btw, as his posts truly show argumentless cheering where he only insults others without having a single line of contribution to the discussion. Even you and Dave had some, minor but still, you have tried to :D

And yes, I reply only on "pro" spam, those who are against it are on the "same side" with me even though reasoning behind it might be different, I do not feel like spending time to explain them if some of them are wrong. It should be task for people who are for the change but capable to challenge their arguments, not just spam. Conclusion being, I do not have anything against opposite opinions but there have to be arguments and counter arguments for concerns of "against" side in order to have quality debate and eventually come up with some mutual understanding (we do not have to agree on "final" but we can understand each other or just agree to disagree). With spammers we cannot have that. Not that it matters to the final decision and CCP, they obviously have no intentions to communicate with us but whenever I am in mood I will challenge trolls and spammers.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5706 - 2015-11-16 22:15:41 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
With 4 CSM's coming forward to say they don't like this
90% of posters saying its a flawed or bad idea

1st 20ish pages - I got bored checking

Quote:
Now we will see if CCP actually listens to the players


Thats funny, it is about 50-50 for the other 200 pages after people actually looked ta the proposal, i wonder why you stopped checking ...


I was counting posters not posts - else your voice would 100x louder than everyone else (to be fair this applies to me too)
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5707 - 2015-11-16 22:36:47 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

If a farm is plex'd its using in game currency to keep it going, If its being subbed the only thing your going to expend on is the extractor everything else is profit. To sub a month is $15 / £9.99 to plex is equivalent to $25 / £16.99 big difference.

So your saying that even though the plex gives a base price alone for your skill points - TSP pilots are just going to make up some random figure to sell them at ???


They are going to sell them for what they can get for them.... What part of supply and demand do you not understand?

It is like any product in any market which can be produced (sp which is farmed), but is also created as a by-product by another process (sp which has become unwanted). The by-product will make normal production unprofitable if demand is not high, and will always depress price. Easy in game example is tier 1 modules, people who picked them up ratting would sell them for less than people could build them for, therefore people stopped building them. Simples. People did not decide not to sell thier t1 loot because it was below build price.

In what world does somebody who has decided they want to cash in 10 mil of industry sp they don't use going look at 240 mil/TSP and think "outrageous, it should be 250mil because that is how much a farmer could make it for" and not sell it? Nobody will think that, they will follow the market, and in doing so the farmers profit margin is gone.

The discrepancy between plex and direct paid sub does give a subbed farmer more leeway, it is still far from "all profit". (It also shows why even by your own reasoning a months of SP is not worth a plex, since it could just as well be worth the sub price.)

They spend £9.99 on a sub and however much 4 extractors will cost (say £7 for simplicity, could be more or less) -> 1 month later they get 4 TSP they can sell for whatever the market value of isk 4 TSP is worth.

They spend £16.99 on a plex and they can sell it now for 1 Billion

They only make a profit over selling plex if TSP price stays over 1/4 of a plex. There is also a months delay, during which time SP dumping could push the price below 1/4 plex but the farmer is already committed. So it always has higher risk than just selling the plex.

Whether farming is profitable is entirely decided whether there are more people willing to sell TSP for less than 1/4 plex or more willing to buy them for more than 1/4 plex. It is soley down to supply and demand of SP. The only base cost is the cost of the extractor. The value of plex is irrelevant other than deciding the point farming will become profitable.

Obviously if demand is extreme CCP might need to limit it, but that is rather straight forward.

I cannot make my mind up if your just plain thick or what, even if you forget anything about farming whatever the plex is currently trending at is you base price to sell skillpoints. i accept initially there maybe a glut but the plex gives you your base rate to sell. Time / money.

Why would anyone want to sell something that has cost them say 300m then they have to extract ( more cost ) then sell at a loss. Regardless of plex or sub once in game your time becomes equivalent to isk. at current price of 1.2 bill for 30 days.

each 24 hr period you accrue 64,800 sp's @ optimum each 24 hr period costs you 40 mill isk. So if you know how much it all costs because of the plex you still sell at a loss ????

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5708 - 2015-11-16 22:54:12 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Don ZOLA wrote:

Thanks for adding post by divine intervention btw, as his posts truly show argumentless cheering where he only insults others

He might say
Don ZOLA wrote:
I am not insulting, just stating obvious

Euphemisms and double standarts are powerful stuff but they could work both ways.
Don ZOLA wrote:
I am in mood I will challenge trolls and spammers.

Quote:
He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#5709 - 2015-11-16 23:01:07 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:

Thanks for adding post by divine intervention btw, as his posts truly show argumentless cheering where he only insults others

He might say
Don ZOLA wrote:
I am not insulting, just stating obvious

Euphemisms and double standarts is powerful stuff but they can work both ways.
Don ZOLA wrote:
I am in mood I will challenge trolls and spammers.

Quote:
He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.



The difference is that I provide arguments and I do not insult in his manner. I basically challenge people to prove they are not what I think they are. You see, I give them benefit of doubt and possibility that I am wrong, they just need to prove me :) When someone keeps showing my opinion about him is correct, I see no reason to avoid calling it with proper name, ie troll, spammer etc.

Thanks for caring about my posting and if I will become a monster or not, but this topic is not about me. Would you be so kind to actually start contributing to it instead using every single chance to go in digression?
Thanks in advance.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Nubran Pahineh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5710 - 2015-11-16 23:24:16 UTC



I am utterly horrified by this idea. It completely guts my motivation to play. Now, instead of taking pride in my small accomplishments, I will have to endure the laughter of wealthy pigs zooming past me in their Cadillacs, flicking cigar ash in my general direction as they disappear in the distance.

Suddenly the long months and years of effort are meaningless. Why play at all? Why should I grind along in a futile effort to keep up with people who can simply outspend me forever?

This is a nice cash grab for CCP, and that's all there is to be said for it. You guys should be out there aggressively pursuing illegal account sellers, not encouraging the selling of accounts yourselves.

This is the moral equivalent of being a schoolteacher who preaches clean living to his students and makes and nice side income selling them drugs.
Doddy
Excidium.
#5711 - 2015-11-16 23:24:50 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:

If a farm is plex'd its using in game currency to keep it going, If its being subbed the only thing your going to expend on is the extractor everything else is profit. To sub a month is $15 / £9.99 to plex is equivalent to $25 / £16.99 big difference.

So your saying that even though the plex gives a base price alone for your skill points - TSP pilots are just going to make up some random figure to sell them at ???


They are going to sell them for what they can get for them.... What part of supply and demand do you not understand?

It is like any product in any market which can be produced (sp which is farmed), but is also created as a by-product by another process (sp which has become unwanted). The by-product will make normal production unprofitable if demand is not high, and will always depress price. Easy in game example is tier 1 modules, people who picked them up ratting would sell them for less than people could build them for, therefore people stopped building them. Simples. People did not decide not to sell thier t1 loot because it was below build price.

In what world does somebody who has decided they want to cash in 10 mil of industry sp they don't use going look at 240 mil/TSP and think "outrageous, it should be 250mil because that is how much a farmer could make it for" and not sell it? Nobody will think that, they will follow the market, and in doing so the farmers profit margin is gone.

The discrepancy between plex and direct paid sub does give a subbed farmer more leeway, it is still far from "all profit". (It also shows why even by your own reasoning a months of SP is not worth a plex, since it could just as well be worth the sub price.)

They spend £9.99 on a sub and however much 4 extractors will cost (say £7 for simplicity, could be more or less) -> 1 month later they get 4 TSP they can sell for whatever the market value of isk 4 TSP is worth.

They spend £16.99 on a plex and they can sell it now for 1 Billion

They only make a profit over selling plex if TSP price stays over 1/4 of a plex. There is also a months delay, during which time SP dumping could push the price below 1/4 plex but the farmer is already committed. So it always has higher risk than just selling the plex.

Whether farming is profitable is entirely decided whether there are more people willing to sell TSP for less than 1/4 plex or more willing to buy them for more than 1/4 plex. It is soley down to supply and demand of SP. The only base cost is the cost of the extractor. The value of plex is irrelevant other than deciding the point farming will become profitable.

Obviously if demand is extreme CCP might need to limit it, but that is rather straight forward.

I cannot make my mind up if your just plain thick or what, even if you forget anything about farming whatever the plex is currently trending at is you base price to sell skillpoints. i accept initially there maybe a glut but the plex gives you your base rate to sell. Time / money.

Why would anyone want to sell something that has cost them say 300m then they have to extract ( more cost ) then sell at a loss. Regardless of plex or sub once in game your time becomes equivalent to isk. at current price of 1.2 bill for 30 days.

each 24 hr period you accrue 64,800 sp's @ optimum each 24 hr period costs you 40 mill isk. So if you know how much it all costs because of the plex you still sell at a loss ????


It is not me who is thick, it is you who have a four year olds understanding of value. Why would somebody sell something that has cost them 300mil for less than 300mil? Obviously because they don't want/need it any more and somebody who does want it will only give them less than 300 mil for it. Are you really that dumb? Why would anyone not sell it? 10 million unused SP, or 2.5 billion isk, hmm I wonder which is more usefull to all non idiots playing the game.

I suppose you think all unwanted items in the world are sold only for their original cost price .....Roll

Not that the sp cost them that in the first place, in addition to 1 chars months training time a months sub also gives access to the game for up to 3 different chars, the only way to gain that access. A plex does not equal 1 months sp. A plex equals 1 months access to the game, and 1 months sp. But then so does a directly paid sub. So somebody who paid for a years sub has only paid the value of 6 plex for a years access to the game and a years skill training. So even if they insist on "getting their money back " as it were and discounted access to the game, they still value that SP at half your plex -> SP value. Given most people value access to the game the potential of SP is even lower. Regardless how much was paid for it however useless SP is useless, and value is always, always, always what somebody is willing to pay.

Before reading this thread I would happily have taken 100 mil isk (net) for a million of my unwanted SP, hell even less if somebody would take it all. If t is useless to me I will take what I can get for it, and so will all normal people not fixated on entirely made up ideas of "value".
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5712 - 2015-11-16 23:30:12 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Don ZOLA wrote:

I basically challenge people to prove they are not what I think they are.

Lets talk about nation culture. ISD will delete our convisation anyway. Russians have popular expression "Докажи что ты не верблюд" translated like "try to prove you're not a camel". It forcing opponent to prove obvious things. Also it's one of demagogue methods. I have no intend to feed you, mr.green.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Veraca Darmazaf
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5713 - 2015-11-16 23:30:59 UTC
Nubran Pahineh wrote:



I am utterly horrified by this idea. It completely guts my motivation to play. Now, instead of taking pride in my small accomplishments, I will have to endure the laughter of wealthy pigs zooming past me in their Cadillacs, flicking cigar ash in my general direction as they disappear in the distance.

The only 'accomplishment' that may be devalued that I see is paying for your sub over whatever duration to acquire what SP you have. I hope gaining SP wasn't the only reason you've been here.

Care to elaborate?
Nubran Pahineh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5714 - 2015-11-16 23:46:30 UTC
Veraca Darmazaf wrote:
Nubran Pahineh wrote:



I am utterly horrified by this idea. It completely guts my motivation to play. Now, instead of taking pride in my small accomplishments, I will have to endure the laughter of wealthy pigs zooming past me in their Cadillacs, flicking cigar ash in my general direction as they disappear in the distance.

The only 'accomplishment' that may be devalued that I see is paying for your sub over whatever duration to acquire what SP you have. I hope gaining SP wasn't the only reason you've been here.

Care to elaborate?


Sure. Every skill I have painstakingly acquired will now be trumped by anyone with a fat wallet. It no longer matters how good I am, how skilled I am, or how long I have played. All that matters is the wealth of the guy who just blapped me with a capital while my best ship is a cruiser.

Short on isk for the capital? Buy a ton of plex and sell em in game. You could be flying a Titan on your second day of play if you wanted to.

And that is why 95% of this thread is composed of people who are violently opposed to SP selling. The other 5% is obviously composed of wealthy people who are just drooling at the chance to buy their way to the front of the line like they always do.
Doddy
Excidium.
#5715 - 2015-11-16 23:48:56 UTC
Nubran Pahineh wrote:



I am utterly horrified by this idea. It completely guts my motivation to play. Now, instead of taking pride in my small accomplishments, I will have to endure the laughter of wealthy pigs zooming past me in their Cadillacs, flicking cigar ash in my general direction as they disappear in the distance.

Suddenly the long months and years of effort are meaningless. Why play at all? Why should I grind along in a futile effort to keep up with people who can simply outspend me forever?

This is a nice cash grab for CCP, and that's all there is to be said for it. You guys should be out there aggressively pursuing illegal account sellers, not encouraging the selling of accounts yourselves.

This is the moral equivalent of being a schoolteacher who preaches clean living to his students and makes and nice side income selling them drugs.


"Effort"? you paying for a sub in the past is "effort" compared to people paying more money for less sp now? And if you play eve to keep up with people its probably not the game for you anwyway, you can never "keep up" with people who started before you in any case. In fact the only way you could would be if you made some isk and used this proposal. i can see you lack the motivation to do so, but I sure there will be plenty who have it.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#5716 - 2015-11-16 23:49:17 UTC
Veraca Darmazaf wrote:
Nubran Pahineh wrote:



I am utterly horrified by this idea. It completely guts my motivation to play. Now, instead of taking pride in my small accomplishments, I will have to endure the laughter of wealthy pigs zooming past me in their Cadillacs, flicking cigar ash in my general direction as they disappear in the distance.

The only 'accomplishment' that may be devalued that I see is paying for your sub over whatever duration to acquire what SP you have. I hope gaining SP wasn't the only reason you've been here.

Care to elaborate?


The fact that you do not see something does not mean it is not there. Skill queue was not here since start, remaps were not available. It actually took effort to plan skills and change them on time in order to have maximum possible.

Let alone, if you want to have discussion about other players concerns, there are plenty of mentioned side effects which could happen in this thread. Takes some effort to read it though :)

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Doddy
Excidium.
#5717 - 2015-11-16 23:54:20 UTC
Nubran Pahineh wrote:
Veraca Darmazaf wrote:
Nubran Pahineh wrote:



I am utterly horrified by this idea. It completely guts my motivation to play. Now, instead of taking pride in my small accomplishments, I will have to endure the laughter of wealthy pigs zooming past me in their Cadillacs, flicking cigar ash in my general direction as they disappear in the distance.

The only 'accomplishment' that may be devalued that I see is paying for your sub over whatever duration to acquire what SP you have. I hope gaining SP wasn't the only reason you've been here.

Care to elaborate?


Sure. Every skill I have painstakingly acquired will now be trumped by anyone with a fat wallet. It no longer matters how good I am, how skilled I am, or how long I have played. All that matters is the wealth of the guy who just blapped me with a capital while my best ship is a cruiser.

Short on isk for the capital? Buy a ton of plex and sell em in game. You could be flying a Titan on your second day of play if you wanted to.

And that is why 95% of this thread is composed of people who are violently opposed to SP selling. The other 5% is obviously composed of wealthy people who are just drooling at the chance to buy their way to the front of the line like they always do.


Hate to break it to you bro, but how good you are, how skilled you are or how long you have played has never mattered, only how long you subbed for.

And really, if somebody really wants to have a titan day 2, and thereby lets everybody else play for 100mil isk a month or whatever after they crash the plex market with the half million bucks or so that would take, would that actually be a bad thing? I mean they could already just buy a titan char in the bazaar for a fraction of the price but oh knoes, they would be stuck with someone elses name.Roll
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5718 - 2015-11-16 23:55:04 UTC
They have a name for the in-game item to utilize this feature, it will happen.
Resistance is futile.

+1 CCP

ps: Can I have your (skillpoint-)stuff?
Nubran Pahineh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5719 - 2015-11-17 00:01:17 UTC
Ask yourself why people play hockey. Then ask yourself, would they still play if the rules of the game allowed any player to simply buy as many goals as he could afford?

How about a 100 yard dash where you are allowed to drive a car, if you can afford it? Would you sell any tickets to that?
Veraca Darmazaf
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5720 - 2015-11-17 00:02:00 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Veraca Darmazaf wrote:
Nubran Pahineh wrote:



I am utterly horrified by this idea. It completely guts my motivation to play. Now, instead of taking pride in my small accomplishments, I will have to endure the laughter of wealthy pigs zooming past me in their Cadillacs, flicking cigar ash in my general direction as they disappear in the distance.

The only 'accomplishment' that may be devalued that I see is paying for your sub over whatever duration to acquire what SP you have. I hope gaining SP wasn't the only reason you've been here.

Care to elaborate?


The fact that you do not see something does not mean it is not there. Skill queue was not here since start, remaps were not available. It actually took effort to plan skills and change them on time in order to have maximum possible.

Let alone, if you want to have discussion about other players concerns, there are plenty of mentioned side effects which could happen in this thread. Takes some effort to read it though :)

To the first part, I am aware. That's why I asked. To the second, I will freely admit to not reading the whole thing. The signal to noise ratio is insane.