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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#5341 - 2015-11-04 21:01:37 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:

I know it sounds like semantics but buying a 5 year old character that can only ever have gained 'x' amount of skill points training is different from implanting 5 years worth of SP into a 12 year old character that couldn't possibly have trained for 17 years.

It might sounds rude but... do you know that change should bringing something new into the game? Furthermore implanting 5 years worth of SP into a 12 year old character is very inefficient thing to do.



it might not be. my oldest is 7 years old and it would run 100% efficiency. but the inefficient of over 80mil sp doesnt isnt the point it just cost more.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5342 - 2015-11-04 21:02:51 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I can't help but have this feeling that people here don't know what P2W actually means anymore. I buy a character from the Bazaar and that's not P2W because I have to buy it whole, but it becomes P2W the moment I can buy that skillset on my character from the same supplier?

Buying a bazaar toon is best fit for purpose it maybe able to fly your marauder and T3C but also a hulk and other useless skills and come with all the baggage associated, It wasnt asked for CCP introduced it as a counter to RMT. A toon built from 500k skill packets whoever sells them is a zero day perfect built pilot with no affiliations - If you cannot see the difference in that Shocked

The bazaar is pay2progress the skillpackets is pay2win !

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5343 - 2015-11-04 21:10:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Iowa Banshee wrote:
I know it sounds like semantics but buying a 5 year old character that can only ever have gained 'x' amount of skill points training is different from implanting 5 years worth of SP into a 12 year old character that couldn't possibly have trained for 17 years.

A mega-corp buying the SP packets to make a fleet's Titian / Carrier / whateverrole pilots have perfect V skills and have an edge that just could not exist unless it was paid for.
Again, what's the issue with a characters SP not being explicitly tied to age? People keep stating this as a benefit of the current system, but never actually explaining how it's beneficial. If it's not, why hold on to it so dearly.

Iowa Banshee wrote:
Buying a bazaar toon is best fit for purpose it maybe able to fly your marauder and T3C but also a hulk and other useless skills and come with all the baggage associated, It wasnt asked for CCP introduced it as a counter to RMT. A toon built from 500k skill packets whoever sells them is a zero day perfect built pilot with no affiliations - If you cannot see the difference in that Shocked

The bazaar is pay2progress the skillpackets is pay2win !
So wait, the logic now is that it's only P2W because I'm ending up with a less capable character in a game with no current penalties for "wasted" SP? The better, more flexible character is not P2W, but the focused, single use character is? What should shock you is that you just turned having a flexible, roundly trained character into a negative.

Also, as discussed, the baggage only works against new players, so again, is that the goal here? Are we still ok so long as it stands to harm new players looking for progress, while vets ignore the social consequences through existing social connections? Are we going to tout "consequence" while remaining intentionally ignorant of the fact that we're allowing people to literally liquidate consequence for gain?

Seems the answer is yes.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5344 - 2015-11-04 21:14:53 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:

it might not be. my oldest is 7 years old and it would run 100% efficiency.

Good for you.
Lady Rift wrote:

but the inefficient of over 80mil sp doesnt isnt the point it just cost more.

Mmmmm... efficient - utilizing a particular commodity or product with the least waste of resources or effort.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Doddy
Excidium.
#5345 - 2015-11-04 21:18:02 UTC
Stalking Mantis wrote:
"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. "

CCP Hellmar
2011-10-05
Source


You do understand that skilling a character is an investment of money while people buying sp with isk are investing time right? Roll
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5346 - 2015-11-04 21:20:24 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:

I know it sounds like semantics but buying a 5 year old character that can only ever have gained 'x' amount of skill points training is different from implanting 5 years worth of SP into a 12 year old character that couldn't possibly have trained for 17 years.

It might sounds rude but... do you know that change should bringing something new into the game? Furthermore implanting 5 years worth of SP into a 12 year old character is very inefficient thing to do.



it might not be. my oldest is 7 years old and it would run 100% efficiency. but the inefficient of over 80mil sp doesnt isnt the point it just cost more.
Your oldest isn't the "problem" as people describe it. They don't care if you have less SP than your age suggest, there is only a problem if you have more.

And cost is a factor to consider unless a) The cost of SP is trivial or b) The player procuring the SP has infinite resources. Otherwise it costing more is a deterrent.
Doddy
Excidium.
#5347 - 2015-11-04 21:45:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Doddy
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Amanda Orion wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
[quote=Magnus Roden]That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply.


How can so many people not see the difference?

Each SP will be generated according to the time limits.

But if you take many characters all generating SP and transfer it to the same character, THAT character will have broken the time to SP rule.

I cant decide whether people choose to ignore this, or whether people's logic really is that flawed.



I agree - A character has a hard limit on the number of SP it can acquire over a set period of time. The purchase of SP over this amount breaks a core concept of the game.

You cannot go the Bazaar and buy a 25 year old Character but soon you will be able to buy the SP to make one.

So, if you are going to sell skill points why bother with the whole trading game - Just put them in the store and do Aurum for Skill points - Accept that its pay to win & don't disguise it as trading "in-game" skills or recycling skills


Just because it has always been that way doesn't mean it is a "core concept of the game". This is not "know how much sp a character could have by its age online" is it? I mean that is one of the stupidest reasons not to do it you could come up with.

Similarly crapping on idea that will be of benefit to hundreds or thousands of players who want to clean up training mistakes, catch up with older players, make up for times they couldn't afford the sub or try new features earlier than training would allow is really dumb if you are basing it on the imagined possibility one crazy person might spend $300k on a 450 mil sp char (your 27 years trained character).

Seriously if somebody wants to do that more power to them, it will allow 10k players who cant afford to play the game to play for a month, let 10k other players make isk out of their bad training mistakes from 5 years ago when they were into a completely different part of the game, and give ccp 300k to continue developing the game. You are seriously complaining about this? When eves skill system means the majority of that 450mil sp will be useless at any given time, and anybody with that cash could already do it far more efficiently by buying all the best min/maxed chars in the bazarr?

And obvioulsy they cant do it for Aurum, that would dienfranchise all the players who can't afford it in rl. You really want that? Sp will be bought with isk, plenty of people (probably the vast majority) will be buying it without using rl cash.
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5348 - 2015-11-04 22:36:06 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Amanda Orion wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
[quote=Magnus Roden]That character that is sold STILL adheres to the time invested into it, SP wise. And the buyer STILL has to deal with the consequences of the choices for that character: Name, SP allocation and corp/behaviour history. The choices the previous owner made and the consequences thereof still apply.


How can so many people not see the difference?

Each SP will be generated according to the time limits.

But if you take many characters all generating SP and transfer it to the same character, THAT character will have broken the time to SP rule.

I cant decide whether people choose to ignore this, or whether people's logic really is that flawed.



I agree - A character has a hard limit on the number of SP it can acquire over a set period of time. The purchase of SP over this amount breaks a core concept of the game.

You cannot go the Bazaar and buy a 25 year old Character but soon you will be able to buy the SP to make one.

So, if you are going to sell skill points why bother with the whole trading game - Just put them in the store and do Aurum for Skill points - Accept that its pay to win & don't disguise it as trading "in-game" skills or recycling skills


Just because it has always been that way doesn't mean it is a "core concept of the game". This is not "know how much sp a character could have by its age online" is it? I mean that is one of the stupidest reasons not to do it you could come up with.

Similarly crapping on idea that will be of benefit to hundreds or thousands of players who want to clean up training mistakes, catch up with older players, make up for times they couldn't afford the sub or try new features earlier than training would allow is really dumb if you are basing it on the imagined possibility one crazy person might spend $300k on a 450 mil sp char (your 27 years trained character).

Seriously if somebody wants to do that more power to them, it will allow 10k players who cant afford to play the game to play for a month, let 10k other players make isk out of their bad training mistakes from 5 years ago when they were into a completely different part of the game, and give ccp 300k to continue developing the game. You are seriously complaining about this? When eves skill system means the majority of that 450mil sp will be useless at any given time, and anybody with that cash could already do it far more efficiently by buying all the best min/maxed chars in the bazarr?

And obvioulsy they cant do it for Aurum, that would dienfranchise all the players who can't afford it in rl. You really want that? Sp will be bought with isk, plenty of people (probably the vast majority) will be buying it without using rl cash.



If you want be able to undo mistakes then just create something akin to the muli-pilot training cert and have it liquidate a characters SP for reallocation on that character.

Then there will be no need to farm toons for SP unless you want a pay to win system - in which case as I said before use Aurum to buy them - Btw you can buy aurum with plex so the ISK rich can pay to win just like the RL rich
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5349 - 2015-11-04 22:48:00 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
the ISK rich can pay to win just like the RL rich

I have 2 questions:
1) What is "win" mean?
2) Why you so much hate rich people?

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Doddy
Excidium.
#5350 - 2015-11-04 22:55:33 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Doddy wrote:


Just because it has always been that way doesn't mean it is a "core concept of the game". This is not "know how much sp a character could have by its age online" is it? I mean that is one of the stupidest reasons not to do it you could come up with.

Similarly crapping on idea that will be of benefit to hundreds or thousands of players who want to clean up training mistakes, catch up with older players, make up for times they couldn't afford the sub or try new features earlier than training would allow is really dumb if you are basing it on the imagined possibility one crazy person might spend $300k on a 450 mil sp char (your 27 years trained character).

Seriously if somebody wants to do that more power to them, it will allow 10k players who cant afford to play the game to play for a month, let 10k other players make isk out of their bad training mistakes from 5 years ago when they were into a completely different part of the game, and give ccp 300k to continue developing the game. You are seriously complaining about this? When eves skill system means the majority of that 450mil sp will be useless at any given time, and anybody with that cash could already do it far more efficiently by buying all the best min/maxed chars in the bazarr?

And obvioulsy they cant do it for Aurum, that would dienfranchise all the players who can't afford it in rl. You really want that? Sp will be bought with isk, plenty of people (probably the vast majority) will be buying it without using rl cash.



If you want be able to undo mistakes then just create something akin to the muli-pilot training cert and have it liquidate a characters SP for reallocation on that character.

Then there will be no need to farm toons for SP unless you want a pay to win system - in which case as I said before use Aurum to buy them - Btw you can buy aurum with plex so the ISK rich can pay to win just like the RL rich



So now you want to do 2 things, one of which is unlimited, instead of 1, which is limited, and still leave people constrained by their sp (new players, players who have lost training due to rl money shortage etc) in the dark, thats just great, well done, you acheived nothing. You even took the market forces out of it so its irrelevant to gameplay, great.
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5351 - 2015-11-04 23:02:46 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
the ISK rich can pay to win just like the RL rich

I have 2 questions:
1) What is "win" mean?
2) Why you so much hate rich people?


(1) I'm not getting into the definition of pay to win - lets say - yet another & more obvious method of using RL money to gain an advantage in the game.

(2) You were the one who was concerned that paying with aurum would ""dienfranchise all the players who can't afford it in rl" just pointing out it disenfranchises ones that cannot afford it with ISK in eve as well
Doddy
Excidium.
#5352 - 2015-11-04 23:08:48 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
the ISK rich can pay to win just like the RL rich

I have 2 questions:
1) What is "win" mean?
2) Why you so much hate rich people?


(1) I'm not getting into the definition of pay to win - lets say - yet another & more obvious method of using RL money to gain an advantage in the game.

(2) You were the one who was concerned that paying with aurum would ""dienfranchise all the players who can't afford it in rl" just pointing out it disenfranchises ones that cannot afford it with ISK in eve as well


I was the one worrying about disenfranchising. And how can not being able to afford something within the game be disenfranchising someone? You think we should all have unlimited isk?
Doddy
Excidium.
#5353 - 2015-11-05 00:08:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Doddy
Iowa Banshee wrote:


Then there will be no need to farm toons for SP unless you want a pay to win system - in which case as I said before use Aurum to buy them - Btw you can buy aurum with plex so the ISK rich can pay to win just like the RL rich



How on earth is this farmable?

Say you want to farm yourself double training speed, a measley 1.5 million sp a month onto your main char (80 mil sp plus).

First you need to make 10 accs and train them 3 months to get them to the point the can use the TSPs. So thats 30 plex right away (you could buy bazarr chars or use TSPs but the cost should be similar), plus another couple to buy them implants etc. Then you need to pay a plex each month to train. They train enough to make 3 TSPs each a month, but you need to pay aur to make each TSP. Current guesses say about a third or a quarter of a plex, so say 3 more plex for the transfers. So 33 plex per month.

You seriousy think anyone is going to pay 30 plex outlay then 33 plex a month for 1.5 mil sp? By the time you gained 30 million sp for your main you could have trained 10 40 mil specialised chars which are always more useful than having more skills on your main anyway, plus you would have saved 60 plex in making tsps and thus afford a new main. If someone is stupid enough to do that it is fine by me, they will put the price of plex down for the rest of us.

For young chars it is redundant, you will be better off just training the char itself or buying a new one. For mid range chars the pay off might be 5 or 6 mil sp, but then they will just reach the 80 mil limit quicker and drop to 1.5 mil sp.

Its no use for farming isk either, you pay 1.5 plex a month per char to get 1.5 plex worth of sp a month back, minus your 4 plex outlay per char to start with, great.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5354 - 2015-11-05 00:13:09 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Iowa Banshee wrote:


(1) I'm not getting into the definition of pay to win - lets say - yet another & more obvious method of using RL money to gain an advantage in the game.

Lets say there is no particular defenition of "win", hence there is no pay2win. I forgot to consider that game already full of people who has "advantage" over you.

Iowa Banshee wrote:

(2) You were the one who was concerned that paying with aurum would ""dienfranchise all the players who can't afford it in rl" just pointing out it disenfranchises ones that cannot afford it with ISK in eve as well

That isn't my concern. I just asked you question. So you worry about disenfranchising. But yet still nothing specific.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#5355 - 2015-11-05 02:41:34 UTC
Doddy wrote:
This is not "know how much sp a character could have by its age online" is it?

It is now.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5356 - 2015-11-05 02:58:09 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
the ISK rich can pay to win just like the RL rich

I have 2 questions:
1) What is "win" mean?
2) Why you so much hate rich people?


(1) I'm not getting into the definition of pay to win - lets say - yet another & more obvious method of using RL money to gain an advantage in the game.

(2) You were the one who was concerned that paying with aurum would ""dienfranchise all the players who can't afford it in rl" just pointing out it disenfranchises ones that cannot afford it with ISK in eve as well


I was the one worrying about disenfranchising. And how can not being able to afford something within the game be disenfranchising someone? You think we should all have unlimited isk?


you do know you can buy Aurum with iSK don't you ....
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#5357 - 2015-11-05 03:06:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Iowa Banshee
Doddy wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:


Then there will be no need to farm toons for SP unless you want a pay to win system - in which case as I said before use Aurum to buy them - Btw you can buy aurum with plex so the ISK rich can pay to win just like the RL rich



How on earth is this farmable?

Say you want to farm yourself double training speed, a measley 1.5 million sp a month onto your main char (80 mil sp plus).

First you need to make 10 accs and train them 3 months to get them to the point the can use the TSPs. So thats 30 plex right away (you could buy bazarr chars or use TSPs but the cost should be similar), plus another couple to buy them implants etc. Then you need to pay a plex each month to train. They train enough to make 3 TSPs each a month, but you need to pay aur to make each TSP. Current guesses say about a third or a quarter of a plex, so say 3 more plex for the transfers. So 33 plex per month.

You seriousy think anyone is going to pay 30 plex outlay then 33 plex a month for 1.5 mil sp? By the time you gained 30 million sp for your main you could have trained 10 40 mil specialised chars which are always more useful than having more skills on your main anyway, plus you would have saved 60 plex in making tsps and thus afford a new main. If someone is stupid enough to do that it is fine by me, they will put the price of plex down for the rest of us.

For young chars it is redundant, you will be better off just training the char itself or buying a new one. For mid range chars the pay off might be 5 or 6 mil sp, but then they will just reach the 80 mil limit quicker and drop to 1.5 mil sp.

Its no use for farming isk either, you pay 1.5 plex a month per char to get 1.5 plex worth of sp a month back, minus your 4 plex outlay per char to start with, great.


So - by your logic this system costs to much to be viable (please - don't give me more math) as the previous post said it is a way to make money off old toons - I just assume that one of you is wrong

Edit : oops my bad both posts were by you
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#5358 - 2015-11-05 03:57:44 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:

it might not be. my oldest is 7 years old and it would run 100% efficiency.

Good for you.
Lady Rift wrote:

but the inefficient of over 80mil sp doesnt isnt the point it just cost more.

Mmmmm... efficient - utilizing a particular commodity or product with the least waste of resources or effort.



these packets are the most efficient way to gain sp above waiting out time no matter what sp you start at.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5359 - 2015-11-05 04:05:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Lady Rift wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:

it might not be. my oldest is 7 years old and it would run 100% efficiency.

Good for you.
Lady Rift wrote:

but the inefficient of over 80mil sp doesnt isnt the point it just cost more.

Mmmmm... efficient - utilizing a particular commodity or product with the least waste of resources or effort.



these packets are the most efficient way to gain sp above waiting out time no matter what sp you start at.
Depends on what if anything this would do to the Bazaar, AUR pricing for extractors and the amount of SP you want. The Bazaar and the packets would be the only 2 means for getting SP aside from normal training, and with AUR price per extractor set there will always be a point where buying a character is more efficient, though we wouldn't know what that is without seeing the effects on both markets.

Edit: That or the Bazaar itself collapses completely due to the popularity and availability of packets, in which case sure.
Yasuo Aldent
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5360 - 2015-11-05 04:52:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Yasuo Aldent
So, currently what the system will be is to remove a skill and put it into an item and then sell that item. I think the broken part is selling that item and then getting unallocated SP. A happy medium would be that when a player removes a skill from a toon and combines it to make this item, the item can allocate SP in ONLY that skill that was removed, down to the level removed. For example, say if I wanted to remove gallente BC 5. (assuming I did not have skills trained that use this skill as a prereq). I could remove, say, one level of gal BC, I drop to gal BC 4. That then can be use to create an item that can ONLY be injected when a toon has gal BC 4 trained and will get them to gal BC 5. Additionally, I could remove all levels of gal BC and a toon could inject this and receive all levels of gal BC.

Something like this I believe would fix the issue since the market would be relatively "flooded" with the lower time and importance skills (racial frig/destroyer 5, mining barge 5) since players will most likely want to trash those (especially if prereq skills can be trashed so your cap pilot can get rid of frigs 3 etc.), while the higher importance skills such as HAC, T3C, or whatever will most likely be kept and few would be on the market.

This system would allow new players to pay their way into something like a tactical destroyer or maybe t2 heavy missles for their drake but not crucial skills that most vet players won't want to part with. In general, it would keep new players from acquiring extreme amounts of SP quickly but might give them that extra boost they need to keep playing the game.