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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5101 - 2015-10-28 16:45:36 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:

There are a few people here who think they should have access to everything in game without effort

Really? Who are they?

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5102 - 2015-10-28 16:51:05 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Leonardo Adami wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
These people speaking that they want all in EvE now why dont you ask CCP seagull to give you EvE Offline - single player and use the Tilde command /Giveall

There's a reason no such thing comes in online games, the shelf life after you blitz'd through it in 90 mins is Zero.


After you clean yourself up from all the vomit you've spewed please elaborate on this.


There are a few people here who think they should have access to everything in game without effort and i mean it all, remove the skillpoint system it only serves to spoil the game, fly titans marauders anything.

I was suggesting they find a single player game and use the console command, tilde key ? and when they have everything without effort how boring it is very quickly.

If you couldnt be arsed to read the whole thing Dror's been spouting for almost a week, you would understand my comments to him.

Just clarifying, "without effort" is without the content being locked behind ludicrous SP walls. Reasonable skill book costs are fine, reasonable production costs, etc., but the game is undermining its own feature list by implying that you can do anything, then shutting it behind paywalls, essentially.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5103 - 2015-10-28 17:14:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Leonardo Adami wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
These people speaking that they want all in EvE now why dont you ask CCP seagull to give you EvE Offline - single player and use the Tilde command /Giveall

There's a reason no such thing comes in online games, the shelf life after you blitz'd through it in 90 mins is Zero.


After you clean yourself up from all the vomit you've spewed please elaborate on this.


There are a few people here who think they should have access to everything in game without effort and i mean it all, remove the skillpoint system it only serves to spoil the game, fly titans marauders anything.

I was suggesting they find a single player game and use the console command, tilde key ? and when they have everything without effort how boring it is very quickly.

If you couldnt be arsed to read the whole thing Dror's been spouting for almost a week, you would understand my comments to him.

Just clarifying, "without effort" is without the content being locked behind ludicrous SP walls. Reasonable skill book costs are fine, reasonable production costs, etc., but the game is undermining its own feature list by implying that you can do anything, then shutting it behind paywalls, essentially.

You Offered This study to back up your claims yes, It clearly states :

A primary goal of most MMORPGs is to acquire objects to exert control over the character and the virtual world. However, because some character classes(A) or skill sets(B) can easily defeat characters of other classes or skills in many MMORPGs, developers should consider a skill-point character development system over a class-based system to balance play and to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win.

A- Mage / warrior / monk / priest / rogue / warlock
B- Skillsets / per each character above

in Mop - a locks rotation of immoliate / incinerate / conflagerate until burning embers built up for free chaos bolts - never run out of mana and could cast whilst moving, Nothing could outdps them in raids or dungeons OP against all other classes.

The skillpoint progression system means all players are equal, we dont have independent classes or skillsets we all have access to the whole enviroment, all ships all modules.

2. Secondary Control over the Character.
Scon1: I have invested a great deal of time in managing my character.

It doesnt say in your study ive been playing a week wheres my titan. It states Scon1
EDIT@Dror
Ill tell you something else too, a good 6 month training plan in EvE you can be a damned good tengu pilot, In wow between Cata and MoP i raided at top level for over 20 months and i still never managed to get a full set of top tier Armour with their shite RNG loot rolls with 7 out my my 10 toons.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#5104 - 2015-10-28 17:19:32 UTC
Dror wrote:
but the game is undermining its own feature list by implying that you can do anything, then shutting it behind paywalls, essentially.

It's what CCP trying to do now. They know SPs system has flaws. They figured more money can be earn this way, so why change the system? Just make players pay more, and there are players who are willing to pay more. It's all about the price.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#5105 - 2015-10-28 17:30:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Niko Lorenzio
What the ****. Why are people comparing eve to other games and especially WoW. There was a time when CCP and Eve players used to pride ourselves in being different from other games. We were growing non stop when we focused on eve. We stopped growing when CCP started looking at other MMOs and copying their decisions. If you like wow so much go play WoW. End of story.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5106 - 2015-10-28 17:32:45 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Just make players pay more, and there are players who are willing to pay more. It's all about the price.

Any money to keep a crown.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#5107 - 2015-10-28 18:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberius Heth
General Lootit wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Just make players pay more, and there are players who are willing to pay more. It's all about the price.

Any money to keep a crown.


You DO realise that magically adding skill points isn't somehow magically going to transform your hilarious clown losses and lol fits (which show zero understanding on the game) and turn them into wins, right? Or that of your corp or alliance for that matter.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5108 - 2015-10-28 18:38:44 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Just make players pay more, and there are players who are willing to pay more. It's all about the price.

Any money to keep a crown.


You DO realise that magically adding skill points isn't somehow magically going to transform your hilarious clown losses and lol fits (which show zero understanding on the game) and turn them into wins, right?

I need them for PvE. I'm just wonder how experienced player afraid of "catching up" noobs.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#5109 - 2015-10-28 18:49:51 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
I need them for PvE. I'm just wonder how experienced player afraid of "catching up" noobs.

Experienced players don't afraid catching up noobs, experienced players afraid this feature will change EvE into just common microtransaction MMO, just like there are so many others on the market.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#5110 - 2015-10-28 18:51:06 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Just make players pay more, and there are players who are willing to pay more. It's all about the price.

Any money to keep a crown.


You DO realise that magically adding skill points isn't somehow magically going to transform your hilarious clown losses and lol fits (which show zero understanding on the game) and turn them into wins, right?

I need them for PvE. I'm just wonder how experienced player afraid of "catching up" noobs.


We're not because SP isn't that important. that's the whole fcking point of this whole discussion. Clueless clowns asking for something they don't understand, in a game they don't understand, expecting that it'll help them because being max lvl and full of purplez helped them so much in WOW.

We're not going to have uninformed noobs, like you, dictate that this game should change to a mindset you're so used to in other games. Here's a top tip: if you can't grasp how EVE works, which in and of itself is fine as a newbie, then either you accept that and try to learn or you just accept that it's not to your liking and fck off to some MMO that is more in line with what the average clown looks for.

People who have no understanding on a subject should probably stay away from discussing it.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5111 - 2015-10-28 18:56:07 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
I need them for PvE. I'm just wonder how experienced player afraid of "catching up" noobs.

Experienced players don't afraid catching up noobs, experienced players afraid this feature will change EvE into just common microtransaction MMO, just like there are so many others on the market.

Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Game rules should be equal for everybody. Imagine rookies gets only queens instead of every other and pieces on chess board. Why? Because they are rookies? If I want to change from geddon to ceptor I must pay more (currency is meaningless here) to do this than new player. An option is created with unequal access to it. What next? Players to 1 year will have discount on subs, while I'll be paying twice?

Jeremiah Saken wrote:
is bull****. It's not for everyone, for low SPs players only.

Word isn't a bird. Did you knew that? Song lied to you

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5112 - 2015-10-28 19:08:12 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Tiberius Heth wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Just make players pay more, and there are players who are willing to pay more. It's all about the price.

Any money to keep a crown.


You DO realise that magically adding skill points isn't somehow magically going to transform your hilarious clown losses and lol fits (which show zero understanding on the game) and turn them into wins, right?

I need them for PvE. I'm just wonder how experienced player afraid of "catching up" noobs.


We're not because SP isn't that important. that's the whole fcking point of this whole discussion. Clueless clowns asking for something they don't understand, in a game they don't understand, expecting that it'll help them because being max lvl and full of purplez helped them so much in WOW.

We're not going to have uninformed noobs, like you, dictate that this game should change to a mindset you're so used to in other games. Here's a top tip: if you can't grasp how EVE works, which in and of itself is fine as a newbie, then either you accept that and try to learn or you just accept that it's not to your liking and fck off to some MMO that is more in line with what the average clown looks for.

People who have no understanding on a subject should probably stay away from discussing it.

Sorry but I have no PhD in MMO subject. Dror did.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Josef Djugashvilis
#5113 - 2015-10-28 20:00:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
If giving new players a helping hand is so important, (and it is not the case that CCP is making a money grab) then offer let them start with enough skill points to fly say, a T1 Frigate with max skills.

Those with an overweaning sense of entitlement will be pleased by such generosity, whilst those who are more likely to stick with the game will decline the offer.

This is not a signature.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#5114 - 2015-10-28 20:32:09 UTC
General Lootit wrote:

Word isn't a bird. Did you knew that? Song lied to you

You must stop writing words, so many quotes, you don't understand it still.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Leonardo Adami
Doomheim
#5115 - 2015-10-28 20:38:32 UTC
Counting down the days until this amazing idea is implemented and it doesn't destroy eve like all you f'ing bittervets claim, so those of us that want eve to grow can point back to this stupidly long thread and say "told ya so"
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5116 - 2015-10-28 20:40:06 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
General Lootit wrote:

Word isn't a bird. Did you knew that? Song lied to you

You must stop writing words, so many quotes, you don't understand it still.

If you see how some noob catching you up - don't worry it's just a bad dream.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5117 - 2015-10-28 20:47:43 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Leonardo Adami wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
These people speaking that they want all in EvE now why dont you ask CCP seagull to give you EvE Offline - single player and use the Tilde command /Giveall

There's a reason no such thing comes in online games, the shelf life after you blitz'd through it in 90 mins is Zero.


After you clean yourself up from all the vomit you've spewed please elaborate on this.


There are a few people here who think they should have access to everything in game without effort and i mean it all, remove the skillpoint system it only serves to spoil the game, fly titans marauders anything.

I was suggesting they find a single player game and use the console command, tilde key ? and when they have everything without effort how boring it is very quickly.

If you couldnt be arsed to read the whole thing Dror's been spouting for almost a week, you would understand my comments to him.

Just clarifying, "without effort" is without the content being locked behind ludicrous SP walls. Reasonable skill book costs are fine, reasonable production costs, etc., but the game is undermining its own feature list by implying that you can do anything, then shutting it behind paywalls, essentially.

You Offered This study to back up your claims yes, It clearly states :

A primary goal of most MMORPGs is to acquire objects to exert control over the character and the virtual world. However, because some character classes(A) or skill sets(B) can easily defeat characters of other classes or skills in many MMORPGs, developers should consider a skill-point character development system over a class-based system to balance play and to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win.

A- Mage / warrior / monk / priest / rogue / warlock
B- Skillsets / per each character above

in Mop - a locks rotation of immoliate / incinerate / conflagerate until burning embers built up for free chaos bolts - never run out of mana and could cast whilst moving, Nothing could outdps them in raids or dungeons OP against all other classes.

The skillpoint progression system means all players are equal, we dont have independent classes or skillsets we all have access to the whole enviroment, all ships all modules.

2. Secondary Control over the Character.
Scon1: I have invested a great deal of time in managing my character.

It doesnt say in your study ive been playing a week wheres my titan. It states Scon1
EDIT@Dror
Ill tell you something else too, a good 6 month training plan in EvE you can be a damned good tengu pilot, In wow between Cata and MoP i raided at top level for over 20 months and i still never managed to get a full set of top tier Armour with their shite RNG loot rolls with 7 out my my 10 toons.

You're trying to say that "a skill points system" (per the study) is "EVE's SP", and that's completely farcical. The WHOLE POINT of that statement is "to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win". Does SP provide that? No. Conversely, does a game like WoW allow equal stats for gear? Yes. "SO, WHAT!?" So, getting in to arena or other PvP is going to rely more on skill than stats. Does that line up with the standard definition of motivation? Yes, per mastery (competence and competitiveness), freedom of choice, and accordance.

Where that contrast ends is where EVE's SP is so amplified from fresh classes and "techs", etc., that getting in to a frigate is much less "meta" and much more "farmable" (to mention nothing of the industry niches and everything else, which being gated makes the game completely shallow for a fresh character). In other words, SP in no manner implies "all players are equal"; and, actually, there are ship classes that are unlocked (as well as further skillsets after maxing some out).

Please stop implying that all characters have equal opportunity, which is obviously inaccurate. A fresh character has some 3% of the ships unlocked.

On control, you're trying to hamfist a statement as some deciding factor (that is, obviously without properly defining it or its relevance). Primary control -- "individuals gain control by altering the environment to correspond to their wishes"; and secondary control -- "individuals alter themselves ('their definitions and understanding') or align with environmental forces". In other words, primarily, potential subs try to master their effect on the game. Where that is shown as implausible (because of low stats, locked ships and items), they have to figure out if they can realign under the SP system. That answer is obviously a huge "no", per what's motivating, how seemingly-limited content effects MMO subs, and what just seems interesting (if it seems OK paying a bunch of money, on top of a sub, for a bunch of stats and unlocks for a sandbox game).

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5118 - 2015-10-28 21:01:27 UTC
Dror wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
So hold on, you're quoting a study that explicitly says character progression is good and promotes a skill system over a level system as ideal to justify the idea that a game should not have character progression or a skill system...

It also suggests skill development promotes retention via "lock-in." None of your ideas about retention in relation to eliminating character development actually fall in agreement with the study. This is exactly what we mean by cherry-picking info.

Contrasting the equal opportunities of "skill progression" vs "a class system" suggests nothing about the validity of character progression as a defining game mechanic. You're pulling that one out of nowhere, it seems. If the point of a skill-based system over class-based is providing equal opportunity to win a battle, that shuts out SP.

"Lock-in" is an inherent phenomena because of the cost of switching games, including monetarily and socially.

Your ability to read is underwhelming.. and the very definition of cherry-picking.
I'm pulling it right out of the report you cited, which never spoke of not having character development as a positive. The only thing it did was point to a system like eve's as preferential. If the creators of the report intended to convey the idea that progression-less systems were preferential, which is the basis of your claim, you'd think they would actually state that.

So we still have a document that only states EvE's approach is preferential to the other contrasted approach and a no progression system is not even considered. That's not cherry picking. That's literally comparing your point with the whole context of the paper and seeing that it effectively and explicitly endorses skill-point based character progression and doesn't advocate 0 progression.

And yes, lock in is the cost of switching games, including lost progress. Nothing stated was inaccurate, just you again fishing for technicalities and ignoring and downplaying obviously promoted ideas in the paper that don't fit your narrative.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5119 - 2015-10-28 21:16:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Dror wrote:
You're trying to say that "a skill points system" (per the study) is "EVE's SP", and that's completely farcical. The WHOLE POINT of that statement is "to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win". Does SP provide that? No. Conversely, does a game like WoW allow equal stats for gear? Yes. "SO, WHAT!?" So, getting in to arena or other PvP is going to rely more on skill than stats. Does that line up with the standard definition of motivation? Yes, per mastery (competence and competitiveness), freedom of choice, and accordance.

Where that contrast ends is where EVE's SP is so amplified from fresh classes and "techs", etc., that getting in to a frigate is much less "meta" and much more "farmable" (to mention nothing of the industry niches and everything else, which being gated makes the game completely shallow for a fresh character). In other words, SP in no manner implies "all players are equal"; and, actually, there are ship classes that are unlocked (as well as further skillsets after maxing some out).

Please stop implying that all characters have equal opportunity, which is obviously inaccurate. A fresh character has some 3% of the ships unlocked.

On control, you're trying to hamfist a statement as some deciding factor (that is, obviously without properly defining it or its relevance). Primary control -- "individuals gain control by altering the environment to correspond to their wishes"; and secondary control -- "individuals alter themselves ('their definitions and understanding') or align with environmental forces". In other words, primarily, potential subs try to master their effect on the game. Where that is shown as implausible (because of low stats, locked ships and items), they have to figure out if they can realign under the SP system. That answer is obviously a huge "no", per what's motivating, how seemingly-limited content effects MMO subs, and what just seems interesting (if it seems OK paying a bunch of money, on top of a sub, for a bunch of stats and unlocks for a sandbox game).
Relevant section:

"because some character classes or skill sets can easily defeat characters of other classes or skills in many MMORPGs, developers should consider a skill-point character development system over a class-based system to balance play and to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win"

Fundamentally EvE's SP system provides greater chances to win at low SP than other progression systems promoting all-around level based improvements to a character. Further, skill based progression, in order to actually be progression, MUST convey advantages.

Even more fundamentally it says "any character class engaged in combat to win." Note that it does not say any character tenure to win, nor any player/character in any specific situation, though as stated EvE does a decent job here. And further the report doesn't state tenured players should have no advantages over new ones. Rather, since every ship class has comparative advantages and disadvantages, and we can effectively substitute ship classes for character classes, yes, the statement made is wholly satisfied by EvE's SP system, including the potential to win.

Edit: It's ironic that you point to WoW with this reasoning as the near constant class balance drama there is exactly the kind of issue the statement speaks against as it creates inherent inferiority/superiority outside of player skill and/or control, and further not able to be compensated for with character development choices.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5120 - 2015-10-28 21:31:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Dror wrote:
You're trying to say that "a skill points system" (per the study) is "EVE's SP", and that's completely farcical. The WHOLE POINT of that statement is "to provide an opportunity for any character class engaged in combat to win". Does SP provide that? No. Conversely, does a game like WoW allow equal stats for gear? Yes. "SO, WHAT!?" So, getting in to arena or other PvP is going to rely more on skill than stats. Does that line up with the standard definition of motivation? Yes, per mastery (competence and competitiveness), freedom of choice, and accordance.

Where that contrast ends is where EVE's SP is so amplified from fresh classes and "techs", etc., that getting in to a frigate is much less "meta" and much more "farmable" (to mention nothing of the industry niches and everything else, which being gated makes the game completely shallow for a fresh character). In other words, SP in no manner implies "all players are equal"; and, actually, there are ship classes that are unlocked (as well as further skillsets after maxing some out).

Please stop implying that all characters have equal opportunity, which is obviously inaccurate. A fresh character has some 3% of the ships unlocked.

On control, you're trying to hamfist a statement as some deciding factor (that is, obviously without properly defining it or its relevance). Primary control -- "individuals gain control by altering the environment to correspond to their wishes"; and secondary control -- "individuals alter themselves ('their definitions and understanding') or align with environmental forces". In other words, primarily, potential subs try to master their effect on the game. Where that is shown as implausible (because of low stats, locked ships and items), they have to figure out if they can realign under the SP system. That answer is obviously a huge "no", per what's motivating, how seemingly-limited content effects MMO subs, and what just seems interesting (if it seems OK paying a bunch of money, on top of a sub, for a bunch of stats and unlocks for a sandbox game).

I didnt infer it, the study states a skillpoint model is more desirable than a class based model to which it is FACT.
if 1000 people subbed to WoW now logging on all times of day and night within a week they would all be of Varying levels if they didnt log on they dont advance .FACT
If the same 1000 people subbed to EvE now logging once setting the same training program and came back at the end of the month they would all be able to fly the Svipul FACT - there is where EvE and its skillpoint training outclasses by leveling and also gives progression without interaction, They would all be flying round equally equpped to pvp or pve. You cant blame the length of time a game has been launched, by how its perceived.

The equal opportunities come from the fact a class based model as stated - Warlock - Skillset A Monk - Skillset B if the lock is OP compared to a monk its not a personal skill advantage its a class advantage the warlock has from the mechanics of the game. We on the other hand are all capsuleers / with the same time investment we all fly the same ships the same modules we can enter everywhere in eve nothing is out of bounds unwise maybe but not locked content. Even when you reach level 100 in WoW you cant then enter top tier dungeons and raids theyre locked out until you then drip feed up the Ilvl scale. This applies to there PvP model to you dont get top tier you have to start at the bottom shabby kit and exchange as you progress

If you want to take it for PvP only you have to go BG - honor / Arena - Conquest (Capped weekly) then its Tokens and lower tier piece for the higher piece.
In EvE due to work commitments / family / Holidays whatever if you log on once a month or everyday your always going to be 2mill sp's give or take closer to your goal every month, Even if you spend 2 hrs every day and all weekend on wow You will never get you top tier kit as once the season changes a new set is out and your chasing the next set. Plus your reliant on whatever numpty joins the queue if no guildies are on. If your alliance and not on outland forget it you'll never win.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”