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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4941 - 2015-10-25 18:48:38 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
no, as you're the one calling me a liar the burden of truth is on you. not me. as for my proof, it's in those links. anyone can read the truth there - the facts i presented.

i said there would be a reduced need for alts and this would lead to a decline in subscribed accounts - that statement ignores the fact that people will simply have SP farming accounts instead. however i didn't comment on that as there's no way to quantify whether or not it'll be a net loss or gain.

my business model comment was in the same post. where i merely pointed out the whole industry has shifted to microtransactions. i didn't make any assumptions about what ccp would do. i asked a question, that question being is it time we accepted that CCP moved from subscriptions to micro transactions. if either of us are liars, it would appear to be you.


You have agreed to my argument. That is what is written there. Or you are trying to deny you wrote it?

Business model comment part (will it switch from subscription to microtransactions) is not even that important as ti might or might not be implemented at some point.


And for links I will say what you have lied with pleasure.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103003#post6103003

Fundamentals are being changed. For previous 12 years there was NO way to increase SP to YOUR char by injecting it, or fastening speed of gaining it beside optimizing attributes and using implants, which are both part of the game.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103187#post6103187

People quitting over some issue definitely cause problems. Beside that it was pointed out how this will affect spying, awoxing, corp thieves etc.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103207#post6103207

Please name those many fundamentals being changed over the years


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103367#post6103367


On character bazaar you purchase characters. As the name implies. You do not buy sp which you can inject to your main char, you buy completely different chars.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103389#post6103389

Same as previous and first post


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103449#post6103449

But it does. With current mechanics you can get lets say 2700 sp per hour with optimized attributes and implants. With the new system you can do that + as much you decide to pay. Ie with old system for 100 hours you could get 270k sp, with new one you can get 5mil or whatever you can afford.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103467#post6103467

As it is stated in the devblog, it favors younger players. Works for everyone but favors young ones.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103502#post6103502

As already explained, you cannot have 300-400 mil sp character now as you are not able to inject sp to existing ones. After the changes that will be affordable for some and that is altering game mechanic since other way it would not be doable before 2020 or so.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103536#post6103536

[b] You cannot go around and buy prestige of top sp players. Simply because their characters are not for sale. And therefore you cannot claim that prestige. I am sure Dr Caymus would not sell his char for all isk in eve. How would you acquire it then?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103624#post6103624

[b] I have already drawn you: Not really. I do not think he is among 1k of characters that were made of start. Consider there were no skill queue back then, there was no evemon, there was no remap. So it took him years of careful planning of schedule, best attributes usage, changing them on time and in the end paying the subscription to be where he is. His dedication is the reason he is top 1. And if CCP sends message that dedication aint mean anything and you can be #1 in something if you pay up, I think its the wrong message.


Looking forward your twisting these out, digressing, trying to manipulate them, avoiding them or whatever Blink

Wow you took it seriously Twisted

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#4942 - 2015-10-25 18:52:59 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:

1. There is massive room for exploitation with this proposal, big alliances with lots of disposable ISK will be able to instantly train up an alt (and do this very effectively up to 50million SP). On reflection the main issue I have with this is that it is INSTANT, that will make it completely overpowered and exploitable for many of the reasons already detailed.

2. The proposal creates the concept of SP farms, and allows veteran players with lots of spare SP or ISK to setup these farms to milk as much ISK as they can out of it. Also this is PASSIVE income which is something that CCP has been trying to remove from the game, and worst off it is passive income with absolutely no effort required to set it up or defend.

3. The proposal will introduce a grind for SP. I have nothing against a small amount of grinding, but the problem with this is that it introduces the prospect of completely UNLIMITED grinding, you can just continually buy more skill packets. This will not be fun in terms of gameplay as you will miss out on a lot of the more niche aspects of eve, things which you pull off with the tools you have available. So instead of being creative and exploring the possibilities in eve and overcoming odds with knowledge and skill, the main option will be to grind more SP to keep up. There will be no excuse now for not being able to fly the doctrine or perfectly fit ships, if you can't then you will be told to go and grind SP and come back later. This in turn makes the game less fun.

1) Alliances with lots of disposable ISK will be able to instantly train up... newbies. It will pushing newbies to be more social what is good for retaintion rate.
2) Let them. They are already feel offended.
3) Grindig was and grinding will be.


1. I am sure alliances will push a lot of isk in new players which they do not know, have no trust in and see no reason to invest in as they are noobs regardless of sp (most is)
2. Not sure that i got this, you are commenting on farms and that does not seem to be related to that
3. Pushing more people in more grinding stops them from creating / participating in content :)

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Dave Stark
#4943 - 2015-10-25 19:04:56 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
no, as you're the one calling me a liar the burden of truth is on you. not me. as for my proof, it's in those links. anyone can read the truth there - the facts i presented.

i said there would be a reduced need for alts and this would lead to a decline in subscribed accounts - that statement ignores the fact that people will simply have SP farming accounts instead. however i didn't comment on that as there's no way to quantify whether or not it'll be a net loss or gain.

my business model comment was in the same post. where i merely pointed out the whole industry has shifted to microtransactions. i didn't make any assumptions about what ccp would do. i asked a question, that question being is it time we accepted that CCP moved from subscriptions to micro transactions. if either of us are liars, it would appear to be you.


You have agreed to my argument. That is what is written there. Or you are trying to deny you wrote it?

Business model comment part (will it switch from subscription to microtransactions) is not even that important as ti might or might not be implemented at some point.


And for links I will say what you have lied with pleasure.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103003#post6103003

Fundamentals are being changed. For previous 12 years there was NO way to increase SP to YOUR char by injecting it, or fastening speed of gaining it beside optimizing attributes and using implants, which are both part of the game.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103187#post6103187

People quitting over some issue definitely cause problems. Beside that it was pointed out how this will affect spying, awoxing, corp thieves etc.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103207#post6103207

Please name those many fundamentals being changed over the years


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103367#post6103367


On character bazaar you purchase characters. As the name implies. You do not buy sp which you can inject to your main char, you buy completely different chars.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103389#post6103389

Same as previous and first post


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103449#post6103449

But it does. With current mechanics you can get lets say 2700 sp per hour with optimized attributes and implants. With the new system you can do that + as much you decide to pay. Ie with old system for 100 hours you could get 270k sp, with new one you can get 5mil or whatever you can afford.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103467#post6103467

As it is stated in the devblog, it favors younger players. Works for everyone but favors young ones.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103502#post6103502

As already explained, you cannot have 300-400 mil sp character now as you are not able to inject sp to existing ones. After the changes that will be affordable for some and that is altering game mechanic since other way it would not be doable before 2020 or so.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103536#post6103536

[b] You cannot go around and buy prestige of top sp players. Simply because their characters are not for sale. And therefore you cannot claim that prestige. I am sure Dr Caymus would not sell his char for all isk in eve. How would you acquire it then?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6103624#post6103624

[b] I have already drawn you: Not really. I do not think he is among 1k of characters that were made of start. Consider there were no skill queue back then, there was no evemon, there was no remap. So it took him years of careful planning of schedule, best attributes usage, changing them on time and in the end paying the subscription to be where he is. His dedication is the reason he is top 1. And if CCP sends message that dedication aint mean anything and you can be #1 in something if you pay up, I think its the wrong message.


Looking forward your twisting these out, digressing, trying to manipulate them, avoiding them or whatever Blink


i agreed to a single point you made, that was irrelevant to the discussion being had.

no fundamental is being changed. the character bazaar has always been there to provide you with the ability to obtain characters with vastly more skill points beyond what normal skill training would allow.

that reply has nothing to do with that quote.

fundamentals that have been lost? tankable concord, corp friendly fire, think there was something to do with wardecs but that was before my time, and many more i haven't listed.

well done, except i'm still correct. people have been bypassing the skill queue crap for years by simply buying characters. there's no lie there, you're just having a bitchfit because i'm right once again.

again, buying characters bypasses the skill training stuff just as easily as buying SP.

no, the sp acquisition rate does not change. buying SP injects sp. the rate at which you earn SP does not change. just because you're unable to understand the conversation being has doesn't make me a liar, it makes you illiterate.

it still favours everyone, as everyone can use it. who gets more benefit from it is irrelevant.

nothing i have said there is a lie. the game is designed to support players with that many SP. that's the entire intention of the SP system. how many people have that much SP or how many sp people have currently is completely irrelevant. nothing i said in that post is factually incorrect.

i said if you want lots of SP you can buy it - fact. once more you're calling me a liar because you simply cannot understand basic english.

hit a text limit apparently, it's already apparent nothing i've said is false and you have poor reading skills
Dave Stark
#4944 - 2015-10-25 19:05:50 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Wow you took it seriously Twisted


the only serious thing about that post is how wrong he is.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4945 - 2015-10-25 19:10:22 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dror wrote:

Social interaction is limited by SP, through effectiveness (status) and productivity (entertainment). That all is the same for gameplay as well, from limitations on exploration (diversity and depth) ..and mastery (fleet comps, being competitive, and practicing ships and fittings and other niches).

You're not defining ideas accurately within the scope of the discussion. A character very well can control the environment, because the definition of that is effectiveness and strategy. Nowhere does the study (nor another, deeper explanation of) control define that as "placing opponents in space". It's about making the most of the character and the full amount of options in the game. It's maximizing opportunity to avoid loss.

You're trying to define a character as this fake identity through trickle-allocated stats, and there's no reason for that. It's basically just an appeal to board-game tradition -- but even those start the character out with full stats (and abilities) from the start. If the gamer is trying to find rapport with the fantasy of playing an MMO character, he can find much less enjoyment with being gated.


Social interaction is only limited by a players ability or desire to interact socially. No in game mechanic has anything to do with that in any way shape or form.

Players do not control an environment but rather how they interact with it. They take into account their skills, the characters capabilities, the capability of the ship they are in etc etc etc. It is about maximizing opportunity based upon that which you currently have. Remove something that affects those opportunities and you remove a major part of the decision making process. Thus you diminish the value of the decisions made to a great degree. A large amount of the risk in game comes from pushing yourself into activities that are borderline based upon your character and player skills. The adrenaline rush that comes from that is so much a part of EvE.

I define a character as an avatar that embodies the choices a player has made in game, it is unique to a player and that is what makes a player invested in the character and therefore the game. I don't know what RPG's you are basing your comment on but none of the games I ever tried (and it was many) started characters with full stats and abilities. Literally none of them. Otherwise what would be the point of XP? There would be nothing for them to increase.

If a player i trying to to find rapport with the fantasy of playing an MMO character then that character has to have a 'life' of it's own, it has to grow and change. Removing skill progression basically destroys this rapport as your character is absolutely no different to every other character in game. Bye bye immersion.

Again, you're inaccurately defining ideas for the scope of the conversation.

Social interaction, per interest in a sandbox MMO, is feeling valid and productive. So, the point defers to the previous post. Specifically, social interaction is much more than sitting on comms. That's possible for any game. If they're bored with the limited window of opportunity, they won't be on anyway; and that's the same for getting completely out-classed to no strategy of theirs. Yet, that very reply says "remove opportunity, and you remove a major part of the decision making process." That's gating.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4946 - 2015-10-25 19:14:58 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Don ZOLA wrote:

1. I am sure alliances will push a lot of isk in new players which they do not know, have no trust in and see no reason to invest in as they are noobs regardless of sp (most is)
2. Not sure that i got this, you are commenting on farms and that does not seem to be related to that
3. Pushing more people in more grinding stops them from creating / participating in content :)


1) Trust is important thing which need to be desreved. I don't think either that alliances will willing to invest in completly strangers but it defently encourge newbies to be sociable(earning trust and learning from vets).
2) I talked about vets benefits. More benefits for vets -> less concerns about new system from them.
3) Content is very blurred word. I could say that being victim while grinding is content also =)

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#4947 - 2015-10-25 19:36:47 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
i agreed to a single point you made, that was irrelevant to the discussion being had.


ROFL


Dave Stark wrote:
1. no fundamental is being changed. the character bazaar has always been there to provide you with the ability to obtain characters with vastly more skill points beyond what normal skill training would allow.

2. that reply has nothing to do with that quote.

3. fundamentals that have been lost? tankable concord, corp friendly fire, think there was something to do with wardecs but that was before my time, and many more i haven't listed.

4. well done, except i'm still correct. people have been bypassing the skill queue crap for years by simply buying characters. there's no lie there, you're just having a bitchfit because i'm right once again.

5. again, buying characters bypasses the skill training stuff just as easily as buying SP.

6. no, the sp acquisition rate does not change. buying SP injects sp. the rate at which you earn SP does not change. just because you're unable to understand the conversation being has doesn't make me a liar, it makes you illiterate.

7. it still favours everyone, as everyone can use it. who gets more benefit from it is irrelevant.

8. nothing i have said there is a lie. the game is designed to support players with that many SP. that's the entire intention of the SP system. how many people have that much SP or how many sp people have currently is completely irrelevant. nothing i said in that post is factually incorrect.

9. i said if you want lots of SP you can buy it - fact. once more you're calling me a liar because you simply cannot understand basic english.

hit a text limit apparently, it's already apparent nothing i've said is false and you have poor reading skills



1. No matter how many times you repeat the lie it will not become the truth. Character bazaar is not the same as it sells characters. Not SP. You cannot twist it out, but keep trying.

2. Of course it does, you said fundamentals are not being changed, I have explained you how they are.

3. Those were not fundamentals, it is like saying fundamentals are being changed because they changed ship stats. Keep trying. Er sorry, keep lying :D Also both of them are not affecting whole player base as only minor amount of players was actually doing it, while change in topic affects every single player no matter do they like it or not. Also, mentioning only 2 from many? Haha, pathetic try, please provide more of your "many". Try with some real examples this time.

4. Except you are again not correct. Buying characters does not bypass skill training on your char. You buy new character, you do not improve existing one.

5. Again incorrect. Buying character gets you new character with some amount of SP. It does not improve your original character. And it will not start doing it no matter how many times you lie about it

6. Sp acquisition rate increases as it does not matter how did you get it, just training or injections as well. What matter when we are talking about rates is the result in time period and with injections it is affected. So it changes.

7. It does not favour everyone, try noticing diminishing returns and reading devblog. It is available for use for everyone but it favours younger players. And if the question is "who is favoured by it" and your answer is "it is irrelevant" just shows your dodging skills.

8. Nice try digressing out of it. As I said you CANNOT have 400mil sp character with the current game mechanics and after the implementation of this you will be able to have it next day if you can afford it. Regular way you would not be able to have it before 2020. And of course you have tried dodging it when you were asked first time, you are doing the same now :shocker:

9. You said that prestige can be bought now as well. I have proven you that top prestige cannot be bought. You can buy chars with "lots" of SP. But your "lots of sp" compared to "top sp" is a joke.

There you go, once again proven wrong. Every single line there you have false statements, presenting them as they are facts. And that is just 10 out of couple hundred posts you have spammed here. You can try dodging again by blaming it on reading skills or whatever and keep being labeled liar, noise maker or provide some real arguments (for the first time in this topic) Blink

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#4948 - 2015-10-25 19:37:50 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Wow you took it seriously Twisted


the only serious thing about that post is how wrong he is.


Yet you failed to prove it, but boom headshot, nuked you again liar Blink

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#4949 - 2015-10-25 19:40:54 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:

1. I am sure alliances will push a lot of isk in new players which they do not know, have no trust in and see no reason to invest in as they are noobs regardless of sp (most is)
2. Not sure that i got this, you are commenting on farms and that does not seem to be related to that
3. Pushing more people in more grinding stops them from creating / participating in content :)


1) Trust is important thing which need to be desreved. I don't think either that alliances will willing to invest in completly strangers but it defently encourge newbies to be sociable(earning trust and learning from vets).
2) I talked about vets benefits. More benefits for vets -> less concerns about new system from them.
3) Content is very blurred word. I could say that being victim while grinding is content also =)


1. To develop trust it takes time. And while they develop that trust they might not be noobs anymore :) Though they still might be on the level to find a boost useful, but already in segment of diminishing returns. Not sure how many corps/alliances would be ready for such investments.
2. Somehow it seemed to me that his 2nd concern was about farms? :D
3. Agreed to certain point. But if hunters are grinding as well, there is no one to make them victims Blink

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4950 - 2015-10-25 20:09:43 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Don ZOLA wrote:

1. To develop trust it takes time. And while they develop that trust they might not be noobs anymore :) Though they still might be on the level to find a boost useful, but already in segment of diminishing returns. Not sure how many corps/alliances would be ready for such investments.
2. Somehow it seemed to me that his 2nd concern was about farms? :D
3. Agreed to certain point. But if hunters are grinding as well, there is no one to make them victims Blink

You are nice man to talk with =)

1) If they seeking for advantange over another allince than they might do that even with newcomers. Logistics are helpful even if they are noobs. Might is key word. We can't know for sure not me, not you at what point they will willing to invest.
2) Yeap and it's strange. "Look I can earn money, stop me somebody from doing that"
3) PvE fits are more effective in grinding and less relevant in PvP. So it force you to choose between safety and greed. Hunter will choose PvP fit when he want to setup a trap. Then hunter become hunted =) Mobile depot is also a choice. So it could be fun Smile

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4951 - 2015-10-25 20:11:36 UTC
Dror wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dror wrote:

Social interaction is limited by SP, through effectiveness (status) and productivity (entertainment). That all is the same for gameplay as well, from limitations on exploration (diversity and depth) ..and mastery (fleet comps, being competitive, and practicing ships and fittings and other niches).

You're not defining ideas accurately within the scope of the discussion. A character very well can control the environment, because the definition of that is effectiveness and strategy. Nowhere does the study (nor another, deeper explanation of) control define that as "placing opponents in space". It's about making the most of the character and the full amount of options in the game. It's maximizing opportunity to avoid loss.

You're trying to define a character as this fake identity through trickle-allocated stats, and there's no reason for that. It's basically just an appeal to board-game tradition -- but even those start the character out with full stats (and abilities) from the start. If the gamer is trying to find rapport with the fantasy of playing an MMO character, he can find much less enjoyment with being gated.


Social interaction is only limited by a players ability or desire to interact socially. No in game mechanic has anything to do with that in any way shape or form.

Players do not control an environment but rather how they interact with it. They take into account their skills, the characters capabilities, the capability of the ship they are in etc etc etc. It is about maximizing opportunity based upon that which you currently have. Remove something that affects those opportunities and you remove a major part of the decision making process. Thus you diminish the value of the decisions made to a great degree. A large amount of the risk in game comes from pushing yourself into activities that are borderline based upon your character and player skills. The adrenaline rush that comes from that is so much a part of EvE.

I define a character as an avatar that embodies the choices a player has made in game, it is unique to a player and that is what makes a player invested in the character and therefore the game. I don't know what RPG's you are basing your comment on but none of the games I ever tried (and it was many) started characters with full stats and abilities. Literally none of them. Otherwise what would be the point of XP? There would be nothing for them to increase.

If a player i trying to to find rapport with the fantasy of playing an MMO character then that character has to have a 'life' of it's own, it has to grow and change. Removing skill progression basically destroys this rapport as your character is absolutely no different to every other character in game. Bye bye immersion.

Again, you're inaccurately defining ideas for the scope of the conversation.

Social interaction, per interest in a sandbox MMO, is feeling valid and productive. So, the point defers to the previous post. Specifically, social interaction is much more than sitting on comms. That's possible for any game. If they're bored with the limited window of opportunity, they won't be on anyway; and that's the same for getting completely out-classed to no strategy of theirs. Yet, that very reply says "remove opportunity, and you remove a major part of the decision making process." That's gating.


Dror are you interpreting this from the study or your personal experiences in game, Ive had 2 hour old toons not even connected with anything i do corp wise coming out with me on level4 runs, told to hold back, let me clear area's and get them salvaging anything to get them going. In corp we do the same, gets rep up for jumps, we get them practising bait n tackle in t1's all while advising them on skill training programs for ceptors AF or cruiser variants, but alot now are opting for svipul. As soon as we log on theres always some recruit wanting to do something and very much eager to learn. I get with your starting quitting starting quitting routine you've never actually found a place in game and certainly not had much experience with skill training and optimised paths in attaining those goals easily. You can pick up on this by your negativity towards certain aspects.

On looking through that study it doesnt say if they were on a pure pvp servers either for the games listed. If it was conducted on PVE only then there is a huge discrepancy as social interaction is limited to guild / clans in a basically non hostile enviroments EvE is harsh no matter if your in hi or null, as stated the only time your truely safe is docked so people are always on there guard. There is no limited window either, if your not willing to learn / slacker you dont stay theres always a newguy waiting to step up and go on a roam early on. People have to make the effort to communicate, its always easier when you say Hi that first time, within a day or 2 instead of silence theyre calling you mate or bud or bastard Shocked. The game is limitless if you interact with those around you.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4952 - 2015-10-25 20:19:23 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dror wrote:

Social interaction is limited by SP, through effectiveness (status) and productivity (entertainment). That all is the same for gameplay as well, from limitations on exploration (diversity and depth) ..and mastery (fleet comps, being competitive, and practicing ships and fittings and other niches).

You're not defining ideas accurately within the scope of the discussion. A character very well can control the environment, because the definition of that is effectiveness and strategy. Nowhere does the study (nor another, deeper explanation of) control define that as "placing opponents in space". It's about making the most of the character and the full amount of options in the game. It's maximizing opportunity to avoid loss.

You're trying to define a character as this fake identity through trickle-allocated stats, and there's no reason for that. It's basically just an appeal to board-game tradition -- but even those start the character out with full stats (and abilities) from the start. If the gamer is trying to find rapport with the fantasy of playing an MMO character, he can find much less enjoyment with being gated.


Social interaction is only limited by a players ability or desire to interact socially. No in game mechanic has anything to do with that in any way shape or form.

Players do not control an environment but rather how they interact with it. They take into account their skills, the characters capabilities, the capability of the ship they are in etc etc etc. It is about maximizing opportunity based upon that which you currently have. Remove something that affects those opportunities and you remove a major part of the decision making process. Thus you diminish the value of the decisions made to a great degree. A large amount of the risk in game comes from pushing yourself into activities that are borderline based upon your character and player skills. The adrenaline rush that comes from that is so much a part of EvE.

I define a character as an avatar that embodies the choices a player has made in game, it is unique to a player and that is what makes a player invested in the character and therefore the game. I don't know what RPG's you are basing your comment on but none of the games I ever tried (and it was many) started characters with full stats and abilities. Literally none of them. Otherwise what would be the point of XP? There would be nothing for them to increase.

If a player i trying to to find rapport with the fantasy of playing an MMO character then that character has to have a 'life' of it's own, it has to grow and change. Removing skill progression basically destroys this rapport as your character is absolutely no different to every other character in game. Bye bye immersion.

Again, you're inaccurately defining ideas for the scope of the conversation.

Social interaction, per interest in a sandbox MMO, is feeling valid and productive. So, the point defers to the previous post. Specifically, social interaction is much more than sitting on comms. That's possible for any game. If they're bored with the limited window of opportunity, they won't be on anyway; and that's the same for getting completely out-classed to no strategy of theirs. Yet, that very reply says "remove opportunity, and you remove a major part of the decision making process." That's gating.


Dror are you interpreting this from the study or your personal experiences in game, Ive had 2 hour old toons not even connected with anything i do corp wise coming out with me on level4 runs, told to hold back, let me clear area's and get them salvaging anything to get them going. In corp we do the same, gets rep up for jumps, we get them practising bait n tackle in t1's all while advising them on skill training programs for ceptors AF or cruiser variants, but alot now are opting for svipul. As soon as we log on theres always some recruit wanting to do something and very much eager to learn. I get with your starting quitting starting quitting routine you've never actually found a place in game and certainly not had much experience with skill training and optimised paths in attaining those goals easily. You can pick up on this by your negativity towards certain aspects.

On looking through that study it doesnt say if they were on a pure pvp servers either for the games listed. If it was conducted on PVE only then there is a huge discrepancy as social interaction is limited to guild / clans in a basically non hostile enviroments EvE is harsh no matter if your in hi or null, as stated the only time your truely safe is docked so people are always on there guard. There is no limited window either, if your not willing to learn / slacker you dont stay theres always a newguy waiting to step up and go on a roam early on. People have to make the effort to communicate, its always easier when you say Hi that first time, within a day or 2 instead of silence theyre calling you mate or bud or bastard Shocked. The game is limitless if you interact with those around you.

None of that refutes what was said.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4953 - 2015-10-25 20:29:58 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Rek Seven has great signature about "content" word
Quote:
Dear eve players, please try and use the word "content" less and instead, be specific. Thanks

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4954 - 2015-10-25 21:26:44 UTC
Dror wrote:
It's very specifically defined as the control a character has over his environment. That includes the opportunity to win, produce, strategize, and improve.

The idea about SP providing even-field "character progression" is worthless for criticizing the game without SP.

Beyond all of that, the study is just correlating previous theories and a study sample for more evidence. You can't refute the inherence of winning and fairness and opportunity to interest and motivation. You obviously can't evidence that "pretend" character progression (SP) is more powerful than actual character progression, effectiveness, and experiences.

Posts refuted. Enjoy.


Ive found a piece where they must of moved the study to PVP briefly.

In most MMORPGs, initial game quests can be accomplished easily without the assistance of other players. However, later and more advanced game quests are difficult and can be accomplished only by collaborating with other players. Because players need to cooperate to advance in the game, players must join a group, society, or guild. For instance, when players battle against other game players, a strong guild membership is essential for survival, and it is nearly impossible to win without a guild

Not so much of an even playing field now theyre on EvE turf.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4955 - 2015-10-25 21:33:55 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
It's very specifically defined as the control a character has over his environment. That includes the opportunity to win, produce, strategize, and improve.

The idea about SP providing even-field "character progression" is worthless for criticizing the game without SP.

Beyond all of that, the study is just correlating previous theories and a study sample for more evidence. You can't refute the inherence of winning and fairness and opportunity to interest and motivation. You obviously can't evidence that "pretend" character progression (SP) is more powerful than actual character progression, effectiveness, and experiences.

Posts refuted. Enjoy.


Ive found a piece where they must of moved the study to PVP briefly.

In most MMORPGs, initial game quests can be accomplished easily without the assistance of other players. However, later and more advanced game quests are difficult and can be accomplished only by collaborating with other players. Because players need to cooperate to advance in the game, players must join a group, society, or guild. For instance, when players battle against other game players, a strong guild membership is essential for survival, and it is nearly impossible to win without a guild

Not so much of an even playing field now theyre on EvE turf.

So, what's to be said of the starter corps with low SP? Just don't undock? A lot of fresh corp members are completely fresh players, and they're the majority that log on. It's unnecessarily restricting that they can't really play the game like it's meant to be played, and it can completely empty out corp comms.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4956 - 2015-10-25 21:45:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
It's very specifically defined as the control a character has over his environment. That includes the opportunity to win, produce, strategize, and improve.

The idea about SP providing even-field "character progression" is worthless for criticizing the game without SP.

Beyond all of that, the study is just correlating previous theories and a study sample for more evidence. You can't refute the inherence of winning and fairness and opportunity to interest and motivation. You obviously can't evidence that "pretend" character progression (SP) is more powerful than actual character progression, effectiveness, and experiences.

Posts refuted. Enjoy.


Ive found a piece where they must of moved the study to PVP briefly.

In most MMORPGs, initial game quests can be accomplished easily without the assistance of other players. However, later and more advanced game quests are difficult and can be accomplished only by collaborating with other players. Because players need to cooperate to advance in the game, players must join a group, society, or guild. For instance, when players battle against other game players, a strong guild membership is essential for survival, and it is nearly impossible to win without a guild

Not so much of an even playing field now theyre on EvE turf.

So, what's to be said of the starter corps with low SP? Just don't undock? A lot of fresh corp members are completely fresh players, and they're the majority that log on. It's unnecessarily restricting that they can't really play the game like it's meant to be played, and it can completely empty out corp comms.

As stated earlier you can be in a T3D ship before the time your trial expires, you can salvage you can pvp with like minded souls if you desire, You can even mission run to test if thats your forte. Its about setting goals and taking small steps into the unknown.

About Eve University
EVE University is a neutral, non-profit training corporation in EVE Online that exists to train new players in the basics of life in New Eden. Founded on March 15, 2004 by Morning Maniac, the University continues to uphold a strong reputation through previous wars, robust management, knowledgeable graduates and instructors, and quality students. The heart of the corporation resides in teamwork through wars, events, and cooperative help in the chat channel.

Link

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4957 - 2015-10-25 21:59:23 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
It's very specifically defined as the control a character has over his environment. That includes the opportunity to win, produce, strategize, and improve.

The idea about SP providing even-field "character progression" is worthless for criticizing the game without SP.

Beyond all of that, the study is just correlating previous theories and a study sample for more evidence. You can't refute the inherence of winning and fairness and opportunity to interest and motivation. You obviously can't evidence that "pretend" character progression (SP) is more powerful than actual character progression, effectiveness, and experiences.

Posts refuted. Enjoy.


Ive found a piece where they must of moved the study to PVP briefly.

In most MMORPGs, initial game quests can be accomplished easily without the assistance of other players. However, later and more advanced game quests are difficult and can be accomplished only by collaborating with other players. Because players need to cooperate to advance in the game, players must join a group, society, or guild. For instance, when players battle against other game players, a strong guild membership is essential for survival, and it is nearly impossible to win without a guild

Not so much of an even playing field now theyre on EvE turf.

So, what's to be said of the starter corps with low SP? Just don't undock? A lot of fresh corp members are completely fresh players, and they're the majority that log on. It's unnecessarily restricting that they can't really play the game like it's meant to be played, and it can completely empty out corp comms.

As stated earlier you can be in a T3D ship before the time your trial expires, you can salvage you can pvp with like minded souls if you desire, You can even mission run to test if thats your forte. Its about setting goals and taking small steps into the unknown.

You've already listed what it takes to get that fitting. It's like that for every niche.

That's not fulfilling.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4958 - 2015-10-25 22:13:20 UTC
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:
It's very specifically defined as the control a character has over his environment. That includes the opportunity to win, produce, strategize, and improve.

The idea about SP providing even-field "character progression" is worthless for criticizing the game without SP.

Beyond all of that, the study is just correlating previous theories and a study sample for more evidence. You can't refute the inherence of winning and fairness and opportunity to interest and motivation. You obviously can't evidence that "pretend" character progression (SP) is more powerful than actual character progression, effectiveness, and experiences.

Posts refuted. Enjoy.


Ive found a piece where they must of moved the study to PVP briefly.

In most MMORPGs, initial game quests can be accomplished easily without the assistance of other players. However, later and more advanced game quests are difficult and can be accomplished only by collaborating with other players. Because players need to cooperate to advance in the game, players must join a group, society, or guild. For instance, when players battle against other game players, a strong guild membership is essential for survival, and it is nearly impossible to win without a guild

Not so much of an even playing field now theyre on EvE turf.

So, what's to be said of the starter corps with low SP? Just don't undock? A lot of fresh corp members are completely fresh players, and they're the majority that log on. It's unnecessarily restricting that they can't really play the game like it's meant to be played, and it can completely empty out corp comms.

As stated earlier you can be in a T3D ship before the time your trial expires, you can salvage you can pvp with like minded souls if you desire, You can even mission run to test if thats your forte. Its about setting goals and taking small steps into the unknown.

You've already listed what it takes to get that fitting. It's like that for every niche.

That's not fulfilling.

Try eve uni - If they can't sort you/new players out i dont think you will ever find what it is your seeking. Theres no quick fix in EvE you reap what you sow.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4959 - 2015-10-25 22:17:01 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dror wrote:

You've already listed what it takes to get that fitting. It's like that for every niche.

That's not fulfilling.

Try eve uni - If they can't sort you/new players out i dont think you will ever find what it is your seeking. Theres no quick fix in EvE you reap what you sow.

It has nothing to do with a specific character. The game has retention problems. If SP is so fine, there would be no announcement to update it.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Estevan Andrard
Doomheim
#4960 - 2015-10-25 22:17:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Estevan Andrard
One point is interesting, after all this.

Content really means little to nothing.

It is like those pvp nuts talking about factional warfare. No one gives a flying crap about eve RP and Politics, there is not much you can do to make factional warfare justly reward if it is not a mere case of "playing your role". If there is no good factional warfare is because there is no good faction warriors.

Null, Low, Hisec is bad for this or that reason. All bull ... it is bad because players do what they think is best for them, which is the "Caldari States of Lonetrek" mentality that what is best for the individual is best for all. That is the fastest way to wreck a community for everyone.

So, this and other dev "patchworks" for making the game interesting are really crappy, but in a community that doest really give "a rodents behind" about others in the average, that is exactly what needs to be done.

Snip, removed some profanities - ISD Atomic Dove

/me says Ok. o7

If con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of progress?