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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#3961 - 2015-10-20 09:40:42 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
by the time you've gone through the trial, and the 30 days gametime required to create a full account that's 2 months. you're almost already at that 5m SP limit and thus you have a character you can farm for SP at lower than market price (and once market price dips below cost price you just stop subscribing it).
edit: pretty sure with power of 2 you'll be at 5m SP for "free" as you're paying 3 plex for 6 months is it?

personal SP farm(s) ensures that you are never in a situation where you will ever have to pay above cost price for SP.

which would be a prudent thing to do if for some strange reason you're being asked to pay rent in SP packets every month.

Thank you. Just found another possible exploit. Alt farm.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3962 - 2015-10-20 09:40:49 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave,

Sometimes your dense, You cant at present bolster an alliances players by making them stronger with skillpoints. To either increase there numbers,alts , inceasing there lower players to jump into big and better kit.


yes you can, buy by characters for them.


As pointed out before though, those come with all the baggage associated with a bazaar toon, instaspawn do not


which is irrelevant when all that character is for is amassing players that can all get max dps when they press f1. how many corps that character scammed/stole/awoxed doesn't make the number on that fitting window any lower or higher.


I would of thought the main reason bought up yesterday was enough in itself, intel and watchlists are pretty much redundant now.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dave Stark
#3963 - 2015-10-20 09:42:50 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
by the time you've gone through the trial, and the 30 days gametime required to create a full account that's 2 months. you're almost already at that 5m SP limit and thus you have a character you can farm for SP at lower than market price (and once market price dips below cost price you just stop subscribing it).
edit: pretty sure with power of 2 you'll be at 5m SP for "free" as you're paying 3 plex for 6 months is it?

personal SP farm(s) ensures that you are never in a situation where you will ever have to pay above cost price for SP.

which would be a prudent thing to do if for some strange reason you're being asked to pay rent in SP packets every month.

Thank you. Just found another possible exploit. Alt farm.


not a new thing - people already start accounts just to train a character to sell on the bazaar. characters that have no baggage, corp history, etc.

completely clean and focused characters created expressly for the purpose of being turned in to isk. pretty sure mr.epeen who was posting earlier is some one who does this, along with many others.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3964 - 2015-10-20 09:43:53 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account".

Lost here, why would I create new account? I can't strip SP from alt below 5 mil.


by the time you've gone through the trial, and the 30 days gametime required to create a full account that's 2 months. you're almost already at that 5m SP limit and thus you have a character you can farm for SP at lower than market price (and once market price dips below cost price you just stop subscribing it).
edit: pretty sure with power of 2 you'll be at 5m SP for "free" as you're paying 3 plex for 6 months is it?

personal SP farm(s) ensures that you are never in a situation where you will ever have to pay above cost price for SP.

which would be a prudent thing to do if for some strange reason you're being asked to pay rent in SP packets every month.


So you are saying this idea is good and actually advocating people create alts purely for SP farming?

OK, everyone will be able to do that. Except they won't as not everyone has the ISK or RL cash to do so. Thus those who are RL or space rich will gain the advantage of practically instant perfect skills in whatever FotM ship is around after any rebalance, The rest of the players of the game just plod along at a now seemingly slower rate (which is in fact no slower than now but this change will create that perception).

Messing with the SP system is plainly not a good idea. It is one of the few things in the game that has consistently worked and worked well. It sets EvE apart from other MMO's and I for one do not want EvE to be 'like every other MMO out there'.

You can be sure that goons et al already have several plans to make this system reinforce their stranglehold over certain areas of space/the game. It's what they are good at and as long as it's within the rules they are perfectly within their rights to do so. that doesn't however make the game any better for the rest of us.
Dave Stark
#3965 - 2015-10-20 09:46:51 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account".

Lost here, why would I create new account? I can't strip SP from alt below 5 mil.


by the time you've gone through the trial, and the 30 days gametime required to create a full account that's 2 months. you're almost already at that 5m SP limit and thus you have a character you can farm for SP at lower than market price (and once market price dips below cost price you just stop subscribing it).
edit: pretty sure with power of 2 you'll be at 5m SP for "free" as you're paying 3 plex for 6 months is it?

personal SP farm(s) ensures that you are never in a situation where you will ever have to pay above cost price for SP.

which would be a prudent thing to do if for some strange reason you're being asked to pay rent in SP packets every month.


So you are saying this idea is good and actually advocating people create alts purely for SP farming?

OK, everyone will be able to do that. Except they won't as not everyone has the ISK or RL cash to do so. Thus those who are RL or space rich will gain the advantage of practically instant perfect skills in whatever FotM ship is around after any rebalance, The rest of the players of the game just plod along at a now seemingly slower rate (which is in fact no slower than now but this change will create that perception).

Messing with the SP system is plainly not a good idea. It is one of the few things in the game that has consistently worked and worked well. It sets EvE apart from other MMO's and I for one do not want EvE to be 'like every other MMO out there'.

You can be sure that goons et al already have several plans to make this system reinforce their stranglehold over certain areas of space/the game. It's what they are good at and as long as it's within the rules they are perfectly within their rights to do so. that doesn't however make the game any better for the rest of us.


i don't need to advocate it - people already do.

if you don't have the isk or RL cash to create an SP farm - you don't have the isk or cash to pay rent to a landlord - so it doesn't matter.

the rich already have that advantage by buying from the character bazaar.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#3966 - 2015-10-20 09:48:49 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account".

And setting up a SP farm requires capital investment and time. If a big alliance buys out all the SP packets for instance then price will spike until demand can catch up. It is what happens in the eve markets all the time already.
Dave Stark
#3967 - 2015-10-20 09:52:48 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account".

And setting up a SP farm requires capital investment and time. If a big alliance buys out all the SP packets for instance then price will spike until demand can catch up. It is what happens in the eve markets all the time already.


by setting up an SP farm takes, as i said, a little over two months probably three. with power of 2 getting to the point where that farm is functional is essentially "free" if i have my prices/duration on power of 2 correct (been a while since i made a new alt).

buying out all the sp packets is irrelevant - you're bypassing the market by setting up your own farm anyway.

you're acting like large alliances are intentionally going to try and not get paid and destroy their own rental empires - which in itself is illogical as all hell.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#3968 - 2015-10-20 09:53:03 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
not a new thing - people already start accounts just to train a character to sell on the bazaar. characters that have no baggage, corp history, etc.

completely clean and focused characters created expressly for the purpose of being turned in to isk. pretty sure mr.epeen who was posting earlier is some one who does this, along with many others.

I was thinking about boosting main char by farming free alts, just by cost of extractor. For low level char that may be a thing.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Dave Stark
#3969 - 2015-10-20 09:54:15 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
not a new thing - people already start accounts just to train a character to sell on the bazaar. characters that have no baggage, corp history, etc.

completely clean and focused characters created expressly for the purpose of being turned in to isk. pretty sure mr.epeen who was posting earlier is some one who does this, along with many others.

I was thinking about boosting main char by farming free alts, just by cost of extractor. For low level char that may be a thing.


sp you farm yourself isn't free (this is literally going to be the new "minerals i mine myself are free" **** isn't it?). you still need to plex the accounts/dual train those characters.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3970 - 2015-10-20 09:55:43 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account".

Lost here, why would I create new account? I can't strip SP from alt below 5 mil.


by the time you've gone through the trial, and the 30 days gametime required to create a full account that's 2 months. you're almost already at that 5m SP limit and thus you have a character you can farm for SP at lower than market price (and once market price dips below cost price you just stop subscribing it).
edit: pretty sure with power of 2 you'll be at 5m SP for "free" as you're paying 3 plex for 6 months is it?

personal SP farm(s) ensures that you are never in a situation where you will ever have to pay above cost price for SP.

which would be a prudent thing to do if for some strange reason you're being asked to pay rent in SP packets every month.


So you are saying this idea is good and actually advocating people create alts purely for SP farming?

OK, everyone will be able to do that. Except they won't as not everyone has the ISK or RL cash to do so. Thus those who are RL or space rich will gain the advantage of practically instant perfect skills in whatever FotM ship is around after any rebalance, The rest of the players of the game just plod along at a now seemingly slower rate (which is in fact no slower than now but this change will create that perception).

Messing with the SP system is plainly not a good idea. It is one of the few things in the game that has consistently worked and worked well. It sets EvE apart from other MMO's and I for one do not want EvE to be 'like every other MMO out there'.

You can be sure that goons et al already have several plans to make this system reinforce their stranglehold over certain areas of space/the game. It's what they are good at and as long as it's within the rules they are perfectly within their rights to do so. that doesn't however make the game any better for the rest of us.


i don't need to advocate it - people already do.

if you don't have the isk or RL cash to create an SP farm - you don't have the isk or cash to pay rent to a landlord - so it doesn't matter.

the rich already have that advantage by buying from the character bazaar.


Anything thats put on the bazaar whether its an old toon or a fresh tengu pilot that has been just trained instation and nothing else has to have its name listed on the bazaar for selling, you then watch when its sold, what corp it joins, where its located.

Thats all gone now, instaspawn toons are an invisible entity.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3971 - 2015-10-20 09:56:01 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account".

And setting up a SP farm requires capital investment and time. If a big alliance buys out all the SP packets for instance then price will spike until demand can catch up. It is what happens in the eve markets all the time already.

Then new farmers will come because it become more profitable hence price will go down. Also need to consider that EVE have many allinces which are constantly fighting against each other.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#3972 - 2015-10-20 09:59:05 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account".

And setting up a SP farm requires capital investment and time. If a big alliance buys out all the SP packets for instance then price will spike until demand can catch up. It is what happens in the eve markets all the time already.


by setting up an SP farm takes, as i said, a little over two months probably three. with power of 2 getting to the point where that farm is functional is essentially "free" if i have my prices/duration on power of 2 correct (been a while since i made a new alt).

buying out all the sp packets is irrelevant - you're bypassing the market by setting up your own farm anyway.

you're acting like large alliances are intentionally going to try and not get paid and destroy their own rental empires - which in itself is illogical as all hell.

I'm not talking about rental empires. I don't think they'll ask for SP in payment anyway, although the inhabitants could feel pressured into converting their own SP to ISK for payment though if they don't have enough liquid ISK to hand. But I couldn't care less about renters anyway.

I'm just pulling you up on the mistake you made when you asserted than skill packets could never go higher in price than the cost of 1/4 PLEX plus an extractor. You would be right if you said that SP packets should never stabilise above 1/4 plex + extractor, but markets spike and decline all the time so they could easily go over that price for a period of time until demand can catch up.

Personally I think there would be oversupply anyway especially during the initial stages.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3973 - 2015-10-20 10:00:05 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
not a new thing - people already start accounts just to train a character to sell on the bazaar. characters that have no baggage, corp history, etc.

completely clean and focused characters created expressly for the purpose of being turned in to isk. pretty sure mr.epeen who was posting earlier is some one who does this, along with many others.

I was thinking about boosting main char by farming free alts, just by cost of extractor. For low level char that may be a thing.

First of all alts need to be hit 5m SP to be able to extracting. And I doubt that Devs will allow to extract from trial accounts.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Vahligmarr
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#3974 - 2015-10-20 10:00:50 UTC
Hi,

I'am subscribed since November 2006 continiously. Still a fan of Eve's unique Real Time Skill System. Keeps me subscribed till today, even when i can't play that much anymore... because it rewards me with SP anyway due to the Time SP Factor. This Constant was softened already when Attribute Revamping was introduced, with the possibility to optimize Skillques. More starting SP for beginners does the same btw...
If you make SP purchasable now, the Constant Time SP Factor becomes even weaker....
Not only that i have a really bad feeling about the idea, but why should i stay subscribed, when i dont have time to play? I could pause my Sub and just buy some SP when checking back in.... and what do you think is the next step? SP boosting Equipment in the AUR Store? Everyone raising at least one SP alt, to sell them at a given time, just to raise the next one?

No, please don't touch the SkillSystem...otherwise this is not my game anymore....

It you need money, pimp the aur store with unique bling bling stuff, but don't kill the most fundamental game mechanic...
Dave Stark
#3975 - 2015-10-20 10:00:52 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account".

And setting up a SP farm requires capital investment and time. If a big alliance buys out all the SP packets for instance then price will spike until demand can catch up. It is what happens in the eve markets all the time already.

Then new farmers will come because it become more profitable hence price will go down. Also need to consider that EVE have many allinces which are constantly fighting against each other.


i agree. i think that due to the laughably low barrier to entry there's nowhere for these SP packets to go price wise other than to track 1/4 plex price + extractor price.

as soon as any profit can be made everyone will fire up their alts again and push the price back down to cost price and once the profit is gone they'll ice them again.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#3976 - 2015-10-20 10:05:50 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
sp you farm yourself isn't free (this is literally going to be the new "minerals i mine myself are free" **** isn't it?). you still need to plex the accounts/dual train those characters.

Then whole I can define price
Dave Stark wrote:
if some one asks you for skill packets as payment you can easily work out what that will cost you to obtain. if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account".

Is invalid.
Because what you wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
by the time you've gone through the trial, and the 30 days gametime required to create a full account that's 2 months. you're almost already at that 5m SP limit and thus you have a character you can farm for SP at lower than market price

So what is the "free time" of playing here? I assume only trial.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3977 - 2015-10-20 10:11:43 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
My perception is earn more isk to be less bored from waiting for training quee. So it's encoroug me to paticapate in the game and not waiting offline until quee is done.

If you have run out of things to do then that is not the games fault but due to your own lack of imagination, sorry but it is just a weak and childish excuse.

I have always had the opposite situation myself. Of course there are moments when you think I wish I had that skill to level V and such, but I've never been short of goals which I have yet to achieve. Broaden your horizons.


Quote:
You're making the whole of issues out to be a people problem. Prove it, then. Prove that motivation isn't some inherent process that design has to be submitted to. Prove that undermining player skillfulness is motivating, instead of its alternative of allowing progression and mastery.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Dave Stark
#3978 - 2015-10-20 10:12:51 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
sp you farm yourself isn't free (this is literally going to be the new "minerals i mine myself are free" **** isn't it?). you still need to plex the accounts/dual train those characters.

Then whole I can define price
Dave Stark wrote:
if some one asks you for skill packets as payment you can easily work out what that will cost you to obtain. if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account".

Is invalid.
Because what you wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
by the time you've gone through the trial, and the 30 days gametime required to create a full account that's 2 months. you're almost already at that 5m SP limit and thus you have a character you can farm for SP at lower than market price

So what is the "free time" of playing here? I assume only trial.



if a power of 2 account gives you 6 months game time for 3 plex (i think that's correct?). then 3 of those months are "free" within that free time you can earn the 5m SP required to start extracting SP from your character. it's like 2.6 months to train 5m sp at max speed. obviously you will not be doing that as you need to train cybernetics V to get +5s so we'll call it 3 months for the sake of rounding.

after that you have 3 months of harvestable SP that cost you 3 plex, which is the same rate as you'll continue to harvest plex at. so if the power of 2 offer continues setting up an SP farm essentially becomes free.

tl;dr pay for 3 months game time, get 6 months. 3 of those months are free.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3979 - 2015-10-20 10:14:51 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account".

And setting up a SP farm requires capital investment and time. If a big alliance buys out all the SP packets for instance then price will spike until demand can catch up. It is what happens in the eve markets all the time already.


by setting up an SP farm takes, as i said, a little over two months probably three. with power of 2 getting to the point where that farm is functional is essentially "free" if i have my prices/duration on power of 2 correct (been a while since i made a new alt).

buying out all the sp packets is irrelevant - you're bypassing the market by setting up your own farm anyway.

you're acting like large alliances are intentionally going to try and not get paid and destroy their own rental empires - which in itself is illogical as all hell.


You somehow think that goons et al won't work out the best level at which to charge people whilst having (now instantly perfect) market alts hoover up all SP packs in the hubs with the trillions they get from moons? They would be stupid not to.

They can afford to screw over the hisec (i.e. newbs) markets whilst giving the damn things away for free to alliance members. They already reimburse expensive ships, now they will be able to simply bring all alliance members up to perfect skills for any doctrine they choose in an instant. Oh, they'll have SP SRP too for those flying T3's. The hold of the existing alliances just gets tighter with this.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3980 - 2015-10-20 10:17:14 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
...

if a power of 2 account gives you 6 months game time for 3 plex (i think that's correct?). then 3 of those months are "free" within that free time you can earn the 5m SP required to start extracting SP from your character. it's like 2.6 months to train 5m sp at max speed. obviously you will not be doing that as you need to train cybernetics V to get +5s so we'll call it 3 months for the sake of rounding.

after that you have 3 months of harvestable SP that cost you 3 plex, which is the same rate as you'll continue to harvest plex at. so if the power of 2 offer continues setting up an SP farm essentially becomes free.

tl;dr pay for 3 months game time, get 6 months. 3 of those months are free.


If your calculations are correct and anyone can set up SP farms then this will simply become a necessity and not a choice. These are just extended 'learning skills' to speed up SP gain. Except new players won't have a clue how to do any of this.