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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Dave Stark
#3941 - 2015-10-20 08:42:15 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
afkalt wrote:
You know that large blocs wage market manipulation right?


yes.

but isk and sp are interchangable. by asking for more of one than the other, all you're doing is asking for more of the other.


Except if skill packets are artificially inflated, it'll be cheaper to slurp your own brains/run plex funded farms.


You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that players of this game are not the most ruthless, clever and exploitive people imaginable.

Again perhaps if there was a shining light of awesome alongside all the concerns....but there's not. There is some vague handwavy crap about the bazaar having drawbacks - as it should. But now, now just buy a perfect thing either by grinding or $. It's an utter betrayal of one of eves core selling points tbh.

Choices matter, choices have consequences. But for a small fee, not any more.


i'm not pretending eve players aren't the most ruthless and exploitative people on the planet - but asking to pay my rent in euros instead of sterling just makes me do a currency conversion, i don't suddenly go and get a job overseas instead.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#3942 - 2015-10-20 08:51:52 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Could I have your SP when it happend?

No. Grow up kid. You money making FW is about to being nerfed. They wanna introduce fast webing frigs to deal with SB farm. I suggest to read blogs and minutes, things are started to change fast here. BTW you have a great potential in this game if you know how to/where earn money at start. I'm impressed.

Another thing. Corps usually taking players that reached some SP level.

Dave Stark wrote:
a SP packet will never cost more than 1/4 plex + extractor cost to produce. ever.

X here is extractor and we don't know the price yet.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#3943 - 2015-10-20 08:52:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentient Blade
Dave Stark wrote:
a SP packet will never cost more than 1/4 plex + extractor cost to produce. ever. it doesn't matter what the market price is. just pull it from an alt's head, there's never a situation where you will *have* to pull it out of your own head and thus your skill progression is never hampered.

this is no different to saying "if ccp want to introduce this "plex idea" then all teh ebils will charge you 1 plex per month to rent and people will be forced to open their wallets and pay real money to rent!!!!".


I think the main reason for where we're not in agreement is I think that so far as SP goes, I don't think there is a direct ISK : SP equivalence in terms of the *selling* SP portion.

I understand exactly where you're coming from regarding the interchangeability of commodities. I think the difference is that when up against a wall and with no means to pay the ISK, the value of "unused" SP to a person intrinsically goes down where as goods (ships, modules, isk) services always retain the same value, give or take a few percent for the difference in buy/sell.
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#3944 - 2015-10-20 08:52:45 UTC
CCP Logibro wrote:
[img]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/68656/1/skilltrade1_550.jpg[/img]
The Character Bazaar has been around for a while, allowing enterprising players to buy and sell characters from others. Lately, we've been exploring some new ideas around improving it, but ultimately realized that our effort was better spent investigating a similar idea: skill trading. This is a pretty big thing, so make sure you read the entire dev blog, and let us know what you think of the ideas inside.


Please also read this reminder on our forum rules ~ ISD Decoy


fine for me

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Dave Stark
#3945 - 2015-10-20 09:01:02 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
a SP packet will never cost more than 1/4 plex + extractor cost to produce. ever. it doesn't matter what the market price is. just pull it from an alt's head, there's never a situation where you will *have* to pull it out of your own head and thus your skill progression is never hampered.

this is no different to saying "if ccp want to introduce this "plex idea" then all teh ebils will charge you 1 plex per month to rent and people will be forced to open their wallets and pay real money to rent!!!!".


I think the main reason for where we're not in agreement is I think that so far as SP goes, I don't think there is a direct ISK : SP equivalence in terms of the *selling* SP portion.

I understand exactly where you're coming from regarding the interchangeability of commodities. I think the difference is that when up against a wall and with no means to pay the ISK, the value of "unused" SP to a person intrinsically goes down where as goods (ships, modules, isk) services always retain the same value, give or take a few percent for the difference in buy/sell.


but there is a direct isk:sp cost price.

we know that you can produce 500,000SP in 7.7 days. that's how the game mechanics work.
we know that 7.7 days of gametime has an isk value. that's 7.7/30 * plex price.

therefore we know exactly what the cost of SP is in isk.

if it's cheaper to buy than produce, then you buy it and give it to your landlord. if it's cheaper to produce it, then you produce it.
you always know that the most you're ever going to pay is ~1/4 plex + extractor. both of those things have an isk price.

if you choose to use spare SP you don't need to pay landlords that's fine - the issue i was addressing was that a previous poster claimed they would "force" people to pay in SP - to which i say "so what? it's no different from a monthly isk bill".
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3946 - 2015-10-20 09:08:07 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute."


which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."?

if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle.


The point being made is you cant ask for that now, but when / if it does happen they can and regardless of what the payment was before if its 10 they want they can use it for there own players to increase in skill, which they cant do now at present.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#3947 - 2015-10-20 09:09:56 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:

In a game that is already quite difficult for newer players, and a game seriously struggling with retention, I fear that this will seem as an almost certain pay-to-win barrier that new players feel they must pay, just to get a leg up, and that it will send a bad signal to them. Of course, I know that in EVE there is no true "pay to win" but I do worry about perceptions.

My perception is earn more isk to be less bored from waiting for training quee. So it's encoroug me to paticapate in the game and not waiting offline until quee is done.

If you have run out of things to do then that is not the games fault but due to your own lack of imagination, sorry but it is just a weak and childish excuse.

I have always had the opposite situation myself. Of course there are moments when you think I wish I had that skill to level V and such, but I've never been short of goals which I have yet to achieve. Broaden your horizons.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#3948 - 2015-10-20 09:13:52 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
More importantly, you can ensure they're produced at a lower price than if you bought them directly off the market.


ok it's early... how?

the first thing a renter will do is say "ok you want 5m sp, that's 10 packets, that's 3bn isk to buy. my rent is 3bn per month." followed by "my rent has just gone up by 500m per month, i only used to pay 2.5bn".

you don't change the cost of anything, you're just hiking the prices of rental fees.

in addition to that you no longer control your rental fees - jita's market does.


It would depend very much on how much the skill packets cost, and what the extractors cost.

If the prices are extremely high, which they likely would be once the initial flood of massive over-supply had dwindled, then even modest amounts of renter-SP demands would lead to people preferring to pull skills out their own heads rather than bankrupting themselves by buying directly from Jita.

It is of course unsustainable if not properly managed, but certain groups in EVE are very skilled at managing such things. Surrendering player skills you're not at-that-moment urgently in need of, to avoid catching heat from some other direction, is something that a lot of people in EVE would feel was a necessary trade off where the alternative was paying a colossal sum of ISK.


a SP packet will never cost more than 1/4 plex + extractor cost to produce. ever. it doesn't matter what the market price is. just pull it from an alt's head, there's never a situation where you will *have* to pull it out of your own head and thus your skill progression is never hampered.

Your making the mistake again of directly correlating skill packets to PLEX, two completely different things. The price of skill packets will be based on supply and demand, the only think you can guarantee is that it won't go below the cost of the extractor.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#3949 - 2015-10-20 09:15:12 UTC
Checking in to say that I'm still generally against this except in the case of demanding rent in sp, which amuses me greatly.

The payments would need to be API verified against the renter's character sheet, of course.
Dave Stark
#3950 - 2015-10-20 09:16:27 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute."


which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."?

if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle.


The point being made is you cant ask for that now, but when / if it does happen they can and regardless of what the payment was before if its 10 they want they can use it for there own players to increase in skill, which they cant do now at present.


if they want to use their own players in skill they can just use the rental income to buy packets, or plex farming accounts.

if they wanted to, landlords could ask for their rent in plex, or robotics, or megathrons, or prostitutes.
Dave Stark
#3951 - 2015-10-20 09:20:21 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
More importantly, you can ensure they're produced at a lower price than if you bought them directly off the market.


ok it's early... how?

the first thing a renter will do is say "ok you want 5m sp, that's 10 packets, that's 3bn isk to buy. my rent is 3bn per month." followed by "my rent has just gone up by 500m per month, i only used to pay 2.5bn".

you don't change the cost of anything, you're just hiking the prices of rental fees.

in addition to that you no longer control your rental fees - jita's market does.


It would depend very much on how much the skill packets cost, and what the extractors cost.

If the prices are extremely high, which they likely would be once the initial flood of massive over-supply had dwindled, then even modest amounts of renter-SP demands would lead to people preferring to pull skills out their own heads rather than bankrupting themselves by buying directly from Jita.

It is of course unsustainable if not properly managed, but certain groups in EVE are very skilled at managing such things. Surrendering player skills you're not at-that-moment urgently in need of, to avoid catching heat from some other direction, is something that a lot of people in EVE would feel was a necessary trade off where the alternative was paying a colossal sum of ISK.


a SP packet will never cost more than 1/4 plex + extractor cost to produce. ever. it doesn't matter what the market price is. just pull it from an alt's head, there's never a situation where you will *have* to pull it out of your own head and thus your skill progression is never hampered.

Your making the mistake again of directly correlating skill packets to PLEX, two completely different things. The price of skill packets will be based on supply and demand, the only think you can guarantee is that it won't go below the cost of the extractor.


it's not a mistake.

the two are different things but it doesn't matter. the price of a skill packet will never be higher than the price i just pointed out for the reasons i just pointed out.

if some one asks you for skill packets as payment you can easily work out what that will cost you to obtain. if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account".

as such you always know the maximum isk price you are being asked to pay.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3952 - 2015-10-20 09:20:36 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute."


which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."?

if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle.


The point being made is you cant ask for that now, but when / if it does happen they can and regardless of what the payment was before if its 10 they want they can use it for there own players to increase in skill, which they cant do now at present.


if they want to use their own players in skill they can just use the rental income to buy packets, or plex farming accounts.

if they wanted to, landlords could ask for their rent in plex, or robotics, or megathrons, or prostitutes.


Rent 3 billion

Right scum as were looking after you your also going to have to stump up 5 mill TSP a month < Extortion but still legal in EvE its a commodity now so as such not covered by anti scam

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dave Stark
#3953 - 2015-10-20 09:23:23 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
"You, renter scum, you will contribute to your protection by providing us with 5 million SP per month as tribute."


which is different to "i'm going to spend your 3bn isk/month rental fee on skill points in jita. thanks guys."?

if people ask for SP as payment you just buy it from the market - which is no different than just being flat out asked for a direct isk transfer, which is far less hassle.


The point being made is you cant ask for that now, but when / if it does happen they can and regardless of what the payment was before if its 10 they want they can use it for there own players to increase in skill, which they cant do now at present.


if they want to use their own players in skill they can just use the rental income to buy packets, or plex farming accounts.

if they wanted to, landlords could ask for their rent in plex, or robotics, or megathrons, or prostitutes.


Rent 3 billion

Right scum as were looking after you your also going to have to stump up 5 mill TSP a month < Extortion but still legal in EvE its a commodity now so as such not covered by anti scam


so they buy 5m SP worth of TSPs for another 3bn, they pay a total of 6bn isk for a month's rent.
that's no different to just saying "pay us 6bn isk a month so we can buy some TSPs on the market please."
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3954 - 2015-10-20 09:24:07 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Moac Tor wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:

In a game that is already quite difficult for newer players, and a game seriously struggling with retention, I fear that this will seem as an almost certain pay-to-win barrier that new players feel they must pay, just to get a leg up, and that it will send a bad signal to them. Of course, I know that in EVE there is no true "pay to win" but I do worry about perceptions.

My perception is earn more isk to be less bored from waiting for training quee. So it's encoroug me to paticapate in the game and not waiting offline until quee is done.

If you have run out of things to do then that is not the games fault but due to your own lack of imagination, sorry but it is just a weak and childish excuse.

I have always had the opposite situation myself. Of course there are moments when you think I wish I had that skill to level V and such, but I've never been short of goals which I have yet to achieve. Broaden your horizons.

I doesn't excusing for my opinion and I doesn't run out of things to do. I have plan and budget for it. And I'm definitely not going to change it because some stranger told me to do so.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#3955 - 2015-10-20 09:27:10 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account".

Lost here, why would I create new account? I can't strip SP from alt below 5 mil.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3956 - 2015-10-20 09:28:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
Dave,

Sometimes your dense, You cant at present bolster an alliances players by making them stronger with skillpoints. To either increase there numbers,alts , inceasing there lower players to jump into bigger and better kit instantly

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dave Stark
#3957 - 2015-10-20 09:33:07 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave,

Sometimes your dense, You cant at present bolster an alliances players by making them stronger with skillpoints. To either increase there numbers,alts , inceasing there lower players to jump into big and better kit.


yes you can, buy by characters for them.
Dave Stark
#3958 - 2015-10-20 09:35:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
if supply and demand make SP packets cost more than production costs you can bypass the market entirely and create your own with SP farms of which the barrier to entry is pretty much just "create a new account".

Lost here, why would I create new account? I can't strip SP from alt below 5 mil.


by the time you've gone through the trial, and the 30 days gametime required to create a full account that's 2 months. you're almost already at that 5m SP limit and thus you have a character you can farm for SP at lower than market price (and once market price dips below cost price you just stop subscribing it).
edit: pretty sure with power of 2 you'll be at 5m SP for "free" as you're paying 3 plex for 6 months is it?

personal SP farm(s) ensures that you are never in a situation where you will ever have to pay above cost price for SP.

which would be a prudent thing to do if for some strange reason you're being asked to pay rent in SP packets every month.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3959 - 2015-10-20 09:36:48 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave,

Sometimes your dense, You cant at present bolster an alliances players by making them stronger with skillpoints. To either increase there numbers,alts , inceasing there lower players to jump into big and better kit.


yes you can, buy by characters for them.


As pointed out before though, those come with all the baggage associated with a bazaar toon, instaspawn do not

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dave Stark
#3960 - 2015-10-20 09:38:21 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave,

Sometimes your dense, You cant at present bolster an alliances players by making them stronger with skillpoints. To either increase there numbers,alts , inceasing there lower players to jump into big and better kit.


yes you can, buy by characters for them.


As pointed out before though, those come with all the baggage associated with a bazaar toon, instaspawn do not


which is irrelevant when all that character is for is amassing players that can all get max dps when they press f1. how many corps that character scammed/stole/awoxed doesn't make the number on that fitting window any lower or higher.