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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Serina Ieri
Doomheim
#3741 - 2015-10-19 14:59:10 UTC
Hendrick Tallardar wrote:
As a person who helps run a new player focused alliance, this is a great idea albeit in need of some number tweaking and make some provisions to prevent abuse. Overall a solid plan to help new players catch up to veterans in terms of skillpoints.


Eve isn't about catching up. This isn't WOW.
Dave Stark
#3742 - 2015-10-19 15:01:54 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
afkalt wrote:
This removes any/all delays on having a functional anonymous alt being created with a specific purpose. If you can't see the holes in that...well /me shrugs


not quite, you still can't pick where your character is created. that's a pretty big problem for most of the scenarios you illustrated there.

if you need it now, jumping 50 jumps to where you need it is hardly "instant".



New toon - get's a remote clone reset. Hello death clone.


you only play in 1 system in eve, your corp's home system?
also, that requires some one to be online to invite them to your corp - is that person always online?

edit: actually am i misunderstanding how that works? i've not looked at it since it was changed a few months ago.



Honestly, I can't remember. Pretty sure you can just do it any old place when it comes to NPC space. Plus the newbie systems are pretty known, you can pick the right race to get into the zip code.

Although mainly my use of instant was relative to today. Perhaps it should be "almost instant". Currently it is what? 3 daysish to churn a cyno alt out? Tomorrow I can do that (effectively) instantly.

My main concern always was and remains - there are far, far too many bad things to come from this and no clear and compelling benefits to outweigh these pitfalls.

We've not even tested the extreme edge cases, there are players out there far more devious than I, who probably have rafts of plans to abuse these features.



As I said the only, ONLY way I can see really reigning in abuse potential is limiting the skills to go onto the highest skilled toon on the account. Unless a vet makes a new account with the specific aim of this (far less likely than using unused slots on existing ones) then.....then it becomes viable. imo.


could always just drop it in as a training speed booster. 500,000 SP extracted to make the next 1,000,000 train at twice the speed (no net gain as you'd have already trained half of those anyway), appropriate diminishing returns etc.

allows people to catch up without "instant" things happening.
Dave Stark
#3743 - 2015-10-19 15:02:40 UTC
Serina Ieri wrote:
Hendrick Tallardar wrote:
As a person who helps run a new player focused alliance, this is a great idea albeit in need of some number tweaking and make some provisions to prevent abuse. Overall a solid plan to help new players catch up to veterans in terms of skillpoints.


Eve isn't about catching up. This isn't WOW.


so eve is having about an ever increasing gulf between long time players and new players?

why is that a good thing?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#3744 - 2015-10-19 15:02:52 UTC
Rawthorm wrote:


(Also who the funk in the right mind is going to spend the obviously high amount of ISK or £ required to actually make all these instant cyno alts? These SP injections won't come cheap and if someone wants to empty their warchest into such a blatant waste of ISK then I say let em get on with it.)



CCP once believed that Titans and Super Carriers would be balanced by their outrageous cost. You should go back and ask them how well that worked out for them.

You do know that we play a game were people can make billions of isk per day in FRIGATE SIZED SHIPS in a very short period of time, right? And you know some people have 12 years of accumulated wealth now? Right?
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
#3745 - 2015-10-19 15:04:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Dror wrote:
Why not take that even further? Remove SP, so players can really trade the resources they would.


Sure, but I'm working with what's on offer here.

With SP trading "fitting SP to a clone" becomes a similar task to fitting modules to a ship. Obviously those with knowledge will come out of top.

No one says "but allowing vets to buy whatever mods they want will give them an advantage" or "they can just use their isk to fit the ship perfectly!" because it's such a stupidly obvious point. Obviously they know not to mix guns, dual tank or fit 3 MWDs unlike the newbie they may fight. No one proposes a progressive tax on the mods market to hinder vets, so why one on SP market?
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#3746 - 2015-10-19 15:11:12 UTC
Is now a bad time to say I think all new subs should get 10m SP to allocate on day one as they see fit, to help get over that initial SP grind ballache?

Would you like to know more?
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3747 - 2015-10-19 15:11:54 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Serina Ieri wrote:
Hendrick Tallardar wrote:
As a person who helps run a new player focused alliance, this is a great idea albeit in need of some number tweaking and make some provisions to prevent abuse. Overall a solid plan to help new players catch up to veterans in terms of skillpoints.


Eve isn't about catching up. This isn't WOW.


so eve is having about an ever increasing gulf between long time players and new players?

why is that a good thing?


Didnt seem to bother you about it a few hours ago, You just spent the past 3 days / 170 pages on how wonderful it will be.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#3748 - 2015-10-19 15:12:12 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:


(Also who the funk in the right mind is going to spend the obviously high amount of ISK or £ required to actually make all these instant cyno alts? These SP injections won't come cheap and if someone wants to empty their warchest into such a blatant waste of ISK then I say let em get on with it.)



CCP once believed that Titans and Super Carriers would be balanced by their outrageous cost. You should go back and ask them how well that worked out for them.

You do know that we play a game were people can make billions of isk per day in FRIGATE SIZED SHIPS in a very short period of time, right? And you know some people have 12 years of accumulated wealth now? Right?


I agree on the Titan/Super front. After all it was my old 5 man corp that managed to crank out a Nyx when they were released while alliances of the time were still scratching their balls, so I am well aware that cost is a poor prohibitor in eve.

That being said, Cyno alts ain't no Super. Brute force your way through the cost of a Super and you have something to show for it. Wasting money on Cyno alts is a lot of wasted ISK for very very little benefit. The cost to benefit ratio is significantly different.
Serina Ieri
Doomheim
#3749 - 2015-10-19 15:13:22 UTC
Your response indicates that you are unfortunately missing the beauty that has been Eve Online. A new player who wisely spends their skill points and educates themselves on what their initial focus will be can be extremely effective. They will also appreciate the complexity and vastness of the game as they continue to progress through their skills of choice - all the while learning the game.

The quick win, max level mindset of today is not what this game was designed for.

I'm hoping CCP stays true to its roots.

Take care.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#3750 - 2015-10-19 15:15:06 UTC
While it may be a fundamental shift in the way people view Characters and SP, the more I think about it the more I like the idea.

A couple of my favorite positives:

It finally gives EVE a SP Sink other than Characters who biomass.
People won't need to wait several years to have the SP needed to compete in tournament gameplay without a large SP handicap.

In my dream world hopefully there will be a natural sink when SP is extracted (50k per extraction?) and the AUR price is high enough to put it at something like 2k isk per SP once the market balances out. Additionally, I think the suggestions on a yearly cap for number of extractions/injections has some merit.

- Than

JUSTK is recruiting
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#3751 - 2015-10-19 15:18:11 UTC
On a slightly different and more constructive note, what about an idea of applying a jump fatigue-esque mechanism to these SP injections rather than the diminishing returns? Want to use them as a one off to get into that ship you've always wanted, go nuts. Keep jabbing yourself like a SP crazed junkie then your going to have to wait a very long time before you can do it again as penance for those initial few jumps in SP.

1st Injection, 24 hours until you can use another with a 4 week extended timer. Use another in that 4 week window and your first timer for your second injection is suddenly a week. Do it again and its now a month plus. A few injections later you've locked yourself out of using this feature for a year or more. The only abuse this leaves is a real low SP alts, which lets face it with the starting player boosts, implants and accelerators was never a big wait to begin with.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#3752 - 2015-10-19 15:18:28 UTC
Cloud the issue all you want. This should be the end of the discussion:

Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Buying items with plex and buying SP with it is not equal.


Buying a character is totally different than opening the market and buying Amarr BS 5 and Large Energy Turret 5.

Not today spaghetti.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#3753 - 2015-10-19 15:19:54 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
afkalt wrote:
I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one.


Malcanis' law requires the suggestion to be targeted at new players - which this is not.


But you have already said that it is targeted at everyone, new players included? Make up your mind please :D

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#3754 - 2015-10-19 15:21:39 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Cloud the issue all you want. This should be the end of the discussion:

Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Buying items with plex and buying SP with it is not equal.


Buying a character is totally different than opening the market and buying Amarr BS 5 and Large Energy Turret 5.


Yea, with a character purchase I get a lot more bang for my buck. That Amarr BS 5 and Large Energy Turret 5 comes with another 100+ skills to back it up, all for the same click of a button. Cool
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3755 - 2015-10-19 15:26:46 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Dror wrote:
Why not take that even further? Remove SP, so players can really trade the resources they would.


Sure, but I'm working with what's on offer here.

With SP trading "fitting SP to a clone" becomes a similar task to fitting modules to a ship. Obviously those with knowledge will come out of top.

No one says "but allowing vets to buy whatever mods they want will give them an advantage" or "they can just use their isk to fit the ship perfectly!" because it's such a stupidly obvious point. Obviously they know not to mix guns, dual tank or fit 3 MWDs unlike the newbie they may fight. No one proposes a progressive tax on the mods market to hinder vets, so why one on SP market?

That change not about humiliating vets but about helping newbie to test more activities in shorter time. So they could choose their specialization which they like. Don't be jealous - you already have huge advantage.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Dave Stark
#3756 - 2015-10-19 15:28:00 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
afkalt wrote:
I've literally not seen a more clean cut example of Malcanis' law. Not a single one.


Malcanis' law requires the suggestion to be targeted at new players - which this is not.


But you have already said that it is targeted at everyone, new players included? Make up your mind please :D


to be fair, i'm not sure it matters.

nobody seems to be able to make their mind up about it.

"vets will abuse it cos they're rich"
"vets won't abuse it because you get bugger all sp back"

"Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."

now, we're getting down to semantics but i interpret that to mean things that were designed for new players specifically as it says "on behalf of". *shrug*
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3757 - 2015-10-19 15:33:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Dror
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Dror wrote:
Why not take that even further? Remove SP, so players can really trade the resources they would.


Sure, but I'm working with what's on offer here.

With SP trading "fitting SP to a clone" becomes a similar task to fitting modules to a ship. Obviously those with knowledge will come out of top.

No one says "but allowing vets to buy whatever mods they want will give them an advantage" or "they can just use their isk to fit the ship perfectly!" because it's such a stupidly obvious point. Obviously they know not to mix guns, dual tank or fit 3 MWDs unlike the newbie they may fight. No one proposes a progressive tax on the mods market to hinder vets, so why one on SP market?

That's what SP already is -- a tax.. on content.

The core of such a redesign is increased retention. That's the providence, not necessarily SP as some awesome commodity.

This announcement still has the problem of vet abuse for any specific alt, and that being nerfed comes with the cost of helping fresh characters as much.. or at the cost of being interesting for vets at all. Then, is the issue of actually increasing sustain, because progression is still just payments on top of more.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#3758 - 2015-10-19 15:38:03 UTC
I have removed some crap, but admittedly, not all the crap. I will continue working towards this goal. Please assist me by following our forum rules.

ISD Decoy

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#3759 - 2015-10-19 15:40:35 UTC
Dynamus Deckerman wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
[
Mr Epeen Cool


Isn't that brutally exhausting to type that Mr Epeen Cool below every single stupid post?!?


Some people just think they're just to cool that they got to do something like that to make you believe that they're so cool when they're not.


EDIT: Mr. Epeen, I don't think you're cool at all, so you can stop doing that.


I'm glad that I could be of assistance in helping you join the community. You have been subbed since late 2014 and thanks to me you have now made your very first contribution to the forums.

I feel kind of special when things like this happen.

Welcome to EVE, good citizen.

Mr Epeen Cool
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#3760 - 2015-10-19 15:59:20 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Decoy
ISD Decoy wrote:
I have removed some crap, but admittedly, not all the crap. I will continue working towards this goal. Please assist me by following our forum rules.


*snip* Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited, but I will keep the quoted section as it is an important reminder... Big smile ~ ISD Decoy