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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Jared Khanar
#3681 - 2015-10-19 13:24:13 UTC
Maekchu wrote:

A mechanic that promotes AFK playstyle, where you just spin ships and wait for skills to train is bad. The uniqueness in EvE is its sandbox elements and the interaction between players. This is what should be promoted and I think this feature does that, since it gives people the option to more rapidly get out and do what they enjoy. Meaning more people in space.



Also - if you can interfere more and more with rl money - how can you call this a sandbox anymore if you are able to change the rules? maybe we should redefine it as rl-money-sandbox then !?

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Rawthorm
The Establishment
#3682 - 2015-10-19 13:25:10 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:
Jared Khanar wrote:
Maekchu wrote:

You can exchange a Plex for AUR (3500 AUR to be specific). Meaning, this can still be attained with in-game currency only.



and the plex doesn´t mean money for ccp? try to view this from the company side


How is this even a factor? Why is it seemingly a bad thing that CCP make any money? A well fed CCP can only further development of this game which we are all so passionate about.


If the fact that ccp is charging money not only for a transaction itself but also buyer and seller seperatly in a subscription based game is ok for you - well it is ... ok for you. Nothing to say furthermore if you want to be threated like that :)

I guess we are not paying our subscription to use all eve features - we are paying only for access and additionaly to use the features to come - but not only one time - better several times for the same one ...


If you really care that strongly about "double paying" as you put it, the use this feature by paying strictly in ISK off the eve market. Those who don't care will use PLEX>AURUM. Everyone's happy. CCP isn't holding a gun to your head and forcing YOU to fork over more RL cash to access this feature.

As for everyone else, it's none of your business if they want to spend RL money on it or not.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3683 - 2015-10-19 13:26:16 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Maekchu wrote:
I would totally agree with you, if the feature was only attainable with IRL money. However, since it is not. This is very similar to a Plex, but instead of ISK you exchange SP. If you are against this idea, you should equally be against Plex, because both gives you the option to progress faster by buying an items with IRL money. However, with how EvE works both more ISK and more SP does not really matter, since you cannot "win" EvE based on these two factors alone.

Buying items with plex and buying items+SP with it is not equal. The only advantage you have with plex is that you don't have to farm pve content in game for ISK (for example). If you want to help new players by introduced proposal items they have to pay anyway, because they don't have enough SP/ISK/experience to earn ISK effectively. It the end it's always the money.
I'm not against baazar, it's necessary evil. I not against other players respec their SP (I don't give a s*** about it). I against lie that this will help new players. It won't, they have to pay RL cash.

I'm newbie that will use it without any money involved and I don't mind if another one will pay for SP. So please don't speak from us all.
Dave stark
#3684 - 2015-10-19 13:27:10 UTC
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Quote:

1)It will devalue training time for sure but is it makes your char so speacial like one of the bazaars toons or time which you spend for actually playing or personality which you make? Maybe you just afraid that someone make example from you and rearanging skill like you did? I think it's reason to proud if someone make examples of you.

2)Farmers need massive supply of extractors so they are much depending from price on the market. If everyone will farm SP like this it wont be profitable because of high price on extractor and low price on SP. Market will balace it.


1.) Lets make EVE not UNIQUE? Lets all farm SP and EVERYONE gain Max Skills! Yay!! NO!!

2.) PAY 2 WIN

You are not constractive any more. If you want to continue dialog please be more specific.


Right, I'll mention this 1 more time.

Removing time to skill by making it payable to get instant SP removes the Unique qualities that makes EVE a sandbox.
30+k players that can purchase SP from the market is not unique.


you haven't removed the time to skill. they still have to be trained by some one.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3685 - 2015-10-19 13:28:24 UTC
Maekchu wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Maekchu wrote:
Jared Khanar wrote:
Maekchu wrote:

I would totally agree with you, if the feature was only attainable with IRL money. However, since it is not. This is very similar to a Plex, but instead of ISK you exchange SP. If you are against this idea, you should equally be against Plex, because both gives you the option to progress faster by buying an items with IRL money. However, with how EvE works both more ISK and more SP does not really matter, since you cannot "win" EvE based on these two factors alone.



It is only available with rl money as the extractors are bought via aurum

You can exchange a Plex for AUR (3500 AUR to be specific). Meaning, this can still be attained with in-game currency only.


You think that the plex comes from the ether too ???

Which was my point. If you are against this change you should equally be against Plex.

Both are pay to progress mechanics. Both are very similar at their core, but Plex exchanges ISK while this new mechanic exchanges SP.

Plex has nothing to do with this topic, but a plex as it is now cannot accelerate skillpoint manipulation, and when plex was first introduced we didnt have aurum as yet another way to extort rl cash for useless cosmetic nonsense

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Jared Khanar
#3686 - 2015-10-19 13:28:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Rawthorm wrote:

As for everyone else, it's none of your business if they want to spend RL money on it or not.


So it sums up in shut up and leave if your opinion is against this - i can assure you it´s not my business what anyone likes to do with his / her money.

Personally i want to avoid games that only want money for everything you do. Thats one of the primary things that attracted me to eve. As this is changed now more and more i´m leaving. As already mentioned my subs are running out in a few days and ... bye.

But that doesn´t mean i have to remain silent until this :)

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Maekchu
Doomheim
#3687 - 2015-10-19 13:29:24 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Maekchu wrote:

And both transactions can be payed with in-game currency.

They are basically making a Plex for SP. Again, if you are against this idea, you should equally be against Plex rioting on the forums day in and day out.


Even if this is possible the underlying rl money flow can´t be denied. Plex is only payed one time for example. so you can´t compare this feature directly to plex - else the plexbuyer has to pay as it gets bought from ccp - and the buyer has to pay rl money additionaly if it gets bought from the market.

EDIT: also this sp trade is easily exploitable by ccp - plex not

First of all, there is actually only one "IRL" money fee. The AUR for the initial Transneural Skill Extractor.

The following Transneural Skill Packet can only be sold for ISK or traded. Whether people will finance this isk with a Plex has nothing to do with it.

Whether this is easily exploitable is still to be seen, since we don't have the final numbers. However, I still feel many of the exploits already exist in the game.

- SP farming alts for ISK. Can already be done with the bazaar. In addition to, we don't have the final numbers so we don't know how profitable that even will be.

- SP farming to inject SP into main. As argued many many times before, the total SP pool on your character is not that important.

- SP farming to inject SP into other alts and spawn a horde of Titan alts everywhere. Can already be done, by just buying character of the bazaar.
Ponder Yonder
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#3688 - 2015-10-19 13:29:42 UTC
I like this.

1. Despite the screamers in this forum's 'opinions', it is NOT pay to win. Someone else have already trained the SP being traded.
2. There is a nett loss of SP in the transaction, which I like.
3. It gives us a chance to up-skill alts as required
4. It gives players the chance to correct past mistakes

To everybody obsessing about never being able to have as much SP as the vets, ask yourself why you're playing this game. You can have as much fun with 1 mil SP as with 100 mil. If you're worried about someone else's SP, you're doing it wrong.

- Ponder
Rawthorm
The Establishment
#3689 - 2015-10-19 13:31:33 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:
The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.


You are still trying to spin this in a positive light 175+ pages in.

Guess I'm outta here.


Have you stopped to consider that for a great many people this feature may actually be positive? Not everyone chooses to view this in the same negative light as you do.

Personally I think this feature diminishes some of the romanticism I have for eve as an old-timer, but I'm able to see past my own narrow bitter-vet viewpoint and see that it may be beneficial for the larger game beyond just me. EvE's got to keep evolving.
Jared Khanar
#3690 - 2015-10-19 13:34:00 UTC
Maekchu wrote:

The following Transneural Skill Packet can only be sold for ISK or traded. Whether people will finance this isk with a Plex has nothing to do with it.


Again - view this from the companys side. If it´s only about enabling a good, needed feature it could be made tradeable only via the market - but it is not. there are a lot of revenue decission involved in this design ...

Economic Services

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Maekchu
Doomheim
#3691 - 2015-10-19 13:34:51 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Maekchu wrote:

A mechanic that promotes AFK playstyle, where you just spin ships and wait for skills to train is bad. The uniqueness in EvE is its sandbox elements and the interaction between players. This is what should be promoted and I think this feature does that, since it gives people the option to more rapidly get out and do what they enjoy. Meaning more people in space.



Also - if you can interfere more and more with rl money - how can you call this a sandbox anymore if you are able to change the rules? maybe we should redefine it as rl-money-sandbox then !?

Please elaborate in detail, how you are somehow able to change the rules based on this feature?

And the rules are still there, but people will be given the option to boost themselves past some skills they needs, instead of just keeping the game subbed and not play for a month.

What is better? Giving people the option to get faster into (for example, Frigate PvP) resulting in more combat in FW? Or a system, where you are maybe a month away from what you want to do skill-wise. So instead of playing the game for a month, you just keep it subbed and offline train.

The rules are still the same for all players. People are just given an option to skip some of the mundane skill training, in favor of more activity in space.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3692 - 2015-10-19 13:35:36 UTC
Ponder Yonder wrote:
I like this.

1. Despite the screamers in this forum's 'opinions', it is NOT pay to win. Someone else have already trained the SP being traded.
2. There is a nett loss of SP in the transaction, which I like.
3. It gives us a chance to up-skill alts as required
4. It gives players the chance to correct past mistakes

To everybody obsessing about never being able to have as much SP as the vets, ask yourself why you're playing this game. You can have as much fun with 1 mil SP as with 100 mil. If you're worried about someone else's SP, you're doing it wrong.

- Ponder


Youve not read the for's arguements then, apparently new characters can't do anything until theyve amased a few months worth of sp's to actually undock and take a peak whats waiting outside a station.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Jared Khanar
#3693 - 2015-10-19 13:37:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Maekchu wrote:

Please elaborate in detail, how you are somehow able to change the rules based on this feature?

And the rules are still there, but people will be given the option to boost themselves past some skills they needs, instead of just keeping the game subbed and not play for a month.

What is better? Giving people the option to get faster into (for example, Frigate PvP) resulting in more combat in FW? Or a system, where you are maybe a month away from what you want to do skill-wise. So instead of playing the game for a month, you just keep it subbed and offline train.

The rules are still the same for all players. People are just given an option to skip some of the mundane skill training, in favor of more activity in space.


don´t think in good or bad - boosting as you call it is a modification of a mechanic / rule / effect / state / whatever from one form to another - a change ... just understand the word in it´s meaning without projecting emotions into it.

Thanks :)

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Rawthorm
The Establishment
#3694 - 2015-10-19 13:37:41 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:

As for everyone else, it's none of your business if they want to spend RL money on it or not.


So it sums up in shut up and leave if your opinion is against this - i can assure you it´s not my business what anyone likes to do with his / her money.

Personally i want to avoid games that only want money for everything you do. Thats one of the primary things that attracted me to eve. As this is changed now more and more i´m leaving. As already mentioned my subs are running out in a few days and ... bye.

But that doesn´t mean i have to remain silent until this :)


Again, your not forced to pay RL money to use this feature. Why does it matter if someone else chooses to? The end result is the same. His SP boost isn't bigger just because he used his credit card and you used your ISK.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#3695 - 2015-10-19 13:42:11 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Maekchu wrote:

The following Transneural Skill Packet can only be sold for ISK or traded. Whether people will finance this isk with a Plex has nothing to do with it.


Again - view this from the companys side. If it´s only about enabling a good, needed feature it could be made tradeable only via the market - but it is not. there are a lot of revenue decission involved in this design ...

And I will tell you again. Plex has the same mechanic. You should equally be against that, given your arguments on this issue.

CCP is a company and a company needs revenue in order to keep running. Obviously, CCP will try to monetize their game, since currently they only have 2 possible revenue streams (EvE and Dust). As an EvE player, you should only have an interest in CCPs effort to make money. Mainly because, if CCP goes bankrupt EvE will shut down.

That being said, whether or not this is a money grab is not really relevant. What is important, is the feature itself. As it currently stands, gameplay-wise it is not that different from a Plex.
Jared Khanar
#3696 - 2015-10-19 13:42:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Rawthorm wrote:
Jared Khanar wrote:
Rawthorm wrote:

As for everyone else, it's none of your business if they want to spend RL money on it or not.


So it sums up in shut up and leave if your opinion is against this - i can assure you it´s not my business what anyone likes to do with his / her money.

Personally i want to avoid games that only want money for everything you do. Thats one of the primary things that attracted me to eve. As this is changed now more and more i´m leaving. As already mentioned my subs are running out in a few days and ... bye.

But that doesn´t mean i have to remain silent until this :)


Again, your not forced to pay RL money to use this feature. Why does it matter if someone else chooses to? The end result is the same. His SP boost isn't bigger just because he used his credit card and you used your ISK.


again - yes this is true.
you are able to do so.

but will this be the norm? I guess not. What if new players want to use this - as stated this is aimed at them. do they have a good iskincome to support this? what are they going to do? and if this is only a feature to support the playerbase - why additional moneycosts? i have no problem in someone bossting himself - i have a problem with the shown "we are going to milk you even further" attitude.

CCP has already monetized eve with a monthly subscription - then added plex as a second - then added aurum as a third - and now features are coming to generate pressure to use them all. which one is paying the bill doesn´t matter for me

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Jimmy Smee
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3697 - 2015-10-19 13:44:26 UTC
I joined as a player coming up to two years ago. What gripped me then and still does now is that Eve is a game that you’re born into, grow into and quickly establish a rapport with you character/s and the players/characters around you as you progress through the game.

My thoughts on the character bazaar are that it is very useful in allowing new/current/past players the ability to buy an established character and play and think we should keep it as it is with one important change. That change has been voiced already and I think it would be an excellent way forward. Allow characters to be purchased in the normal way, buy a name change package from the New Eden Store for Aurum. This package would not only change your character name but would produce a history tab for the previous character name.

This proposed idea of packaging up part of your characters life in skill points and selling them, well it just feels so wrong and goes against the ethos of the game. There currently are a few areas of the game open to abuse but this idea would be the daddy. It would open a can of worms and cause confusion that could eventually cause irreparable damage to our wonderful game.

To appreciate a skill takes time, during that time you learn your trade be it PvP, trading, industry, etc. All the pitfalls, the disappointments and the joy, to my mind this idea takes away the fundamental gameplay that makes Eve so different. Time should not be circumvented like this; a characters date of birth would be meaningless and the game will seem skewed.

If you must allow ways for real life people to jump into advanced characters then why not create character packages for the various races in Eve. You could create a PvP, mining, an industry package, etc. Not to powerful but with enough skills to make a good start at the game. Maybe this could help with player retention, I don’t know. Me, I think things should remain as they are and new players should start at the beginning.

If player retention is driving this then what about bringing in skill caps on each level of ship, this has been suggested and explained elsewhere. There must be a better way than progressing with this skill point idea.

So as you will have guessed, I am in the no camp as I don’t see this idea benefiting the game in the long term, never mind the short.
Dave stark
#3698 - 2015-10-19 13:46:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Jared Khanar wrote:
as stated this is aimed at them.


we went through this multiple times. this feature is aimed at everyone. it says so in the devblog.

The Dev Blog You Didn't Bother Reading wrote:
By putting more control of your characters in your hands we hope to improve the game for everyone.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#3699 - 2015-10-19 13:46:38 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Maekchu wrote:

Please elaborate in detail, how you are somehow able to change the rules based on this feature?

And the rules are still there, but people will be given the option to boost themselves past some skills they needs, instead of just keeping the game subbed and not play for a month.

What is better? Giving people the option to get faster into (for example, Frigate PvP) resulting in more combat in FW? Or a system, where you are maybe a month away from what you want to do skill-wise. So instead of playing the game for a month, you just keep it subbed and offline train.

The rules are still the same for all players. People are just given an option to skip some of the mundane skill training, in favor of more activity in space.


don´t think in good or bad - boosting as you call it is a modification of a mechanic / rule / effect / state / whatever from one form to another - a change ... just understand the word in it´s meaning without projecting emotions into it.

Thanks :)

Quote:
modification
ˌmɒdɪfɪˈkeɪʃ(ə)n/
noun

the action of modifying something.
"the parts supplied should fit with little or no modification"
synonyms: softening, moderation, tempering, qualification, restriction, lessening, reduction, decrease, diminishing, lowering, abatement, mitigation
"working class opposition to the tax has led to some modification of this stance"

a change made.
plural noun: modifications
"a number of modifications are being carried out to the engines"
synonyms: alteration, adjustment, change, adaptation, improvement, refinement, revision, recasting, reshaping, refashioning, restyling, revamping, reworking, remodelling, remoulding, reconstruction, reorganization; More


Nothing is being modified to the rules. You get the option to more rapidly gain SP, but the rules of the game are the same. Instead of just subbing for a month and stay docked, I get an option to just buy an item and not afk train that queue.

I don't understand why you say I project emotion. I simply told you the rules are not modified. If someone could buy a permit to not get concorded in HS for real money, that would be changing the rules with a P2W mechanic. But not this.
Jared Khanar
#3700 - 2015-10-19 13:47:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Dave Stark wrote:
Jared Khanar wrote:
as stated this is aimed at them.


we went through this multiple times. this feature is aimed at everyone. it says so in the devblog.


so with the sp losses it is even aimed at 150m sp chars in the same way without a difference? devblogs talk about it so maybe you should read :)

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