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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3561 - 2015-10-19 10:27:13 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.


as does creating a TSP.

this system doesn't provide an instant win - some one still has to train the SP just like the bazaar system so it will still take time.


But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time.

Lets say: Your rich in RL, you purchase 100 Plex and sell it in game to purchase 200m SP character on the bazaar. The time and effort put into that character has always been around since it was created, you are rich enough to purchase a decent toon. Shame you dont know what to do with it.

You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE.
Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / £ is not right in my eyes.


which is exactly what you can do now, on the character bazzar. you're buying a big ol' lump of SP.

"Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / £" - you're literally describing how the bazaar works.


That is exactley the way im describing to you how TSP works grab a pile of insignifcant old players and harvest there resources for CCP to sell, what is the difference, apart from me bringing this whole topic to your level of understanding taking the compation / history / values of the game out of the equation.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Professor Xander Farnsworth
Doomheim
#3562 - 2015-10-19 10:31:47 UTC
Fantastic Idea that I have been long time waiting for. Perhaps for too long...

I have 3 accounts and 3 toons 50Mill Sp, 30Mill Sp and 20Mill Sp. My chars are capable of earning me enough that i can buy 80-100M Sp toon every month from Bazaar. I've been considering to buy some already but now...
I will be able to buy those skillpoints for my own toon that I have given name to . It is brilliant alternative for people who actually care about names.
Honestly, I completely don't understand people who complain about it. Where the hell is the difference between buying a toon from bazaar and buying skillpoints for own toon?
No matter how short time I've been playing the game I can have any amount of skillpoints from Bazaar right now - there is completely no need to wait all those years anyway.
There is no logic in such complaining and the dissatisfaction doesn't have any grounds. It seems that people like to complain just because something is slightly different than they imagine about it.
Dave Stark
#3563 - 2015-10-19 10:31:50 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
That is exactley the way im describing to you how TSP works grab a pile of insignifcant old players and harvest there resources for CCP to sell, what is the difference, apart from me bringing this whole topic to your level of understanding taking the compation / history / values of the game out of the equation.


i pointed out the difference; ccp arbitrarily deleting characters.

you seem to think that's perfectly acceptable. which it is, if yours is the first to go.
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3564 - 2015-10-19 10:32:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Syn'Drakkahr
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.


as does creating a TSP.

this system doesn't provide an instant win - some one still has to train the SP just like the bazaar system so it will still take time.


But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time.

Lets say: Your rich in RL, you purchase 100 Plex and sell it in game to purchase 200m SP character on the bazaar. The time and effort put into that character has always been around since it was created, you are rich enough to purchase a decent toon. Shame you dont know what to do with it.

You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE.
Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / £ is not right in my eyes.


which is exactly what you can do now, on the character bazzar. you're buying a big ol' lump of SP.

"Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / £" - you're literally describing how the bazaar works.


If it's exactly the same, then why do we need it? Do explain.


This

If the answer is "easier access for new player base", then just stick a few ads in game pointing to the character bazaar in the forums. Problem solved.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3565 - 2015-10-19 10:33:34 UTC
Professor Xander Farnsworth wrote:
Fantastic Idea that I have been long time waiting for. Perhaps for too long...

I have 3 accounts and 3 toons 50Mill Sp, 30Mill Sp and 20Mill Sp. My chars are capable of earning me enough that i can buy 80-100M Sp toon every month from Bazaar. I've been considering to buy some already but now...
I will be able to buy those skillpoints for my own toon that I have given name to . It is brilliant alternative for people who actually care about names.
Honestly, I completely don't understand people who complain about it. Where the hell is the difference between buying a toon from bazaar and buying skillpoints for own toon?
No matter how short time I've been playing the game I can have any amount of skillpoints from Bazaar right now - there is completely no need to wait all those years anyway.
There is no logic in such complaining and the dissatisfaction doesn't have any grounds. It seems that people like to complain just because something is slightly different than they imagine about it.




I rest my case.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dave Stark
#3566 - 2015-10-19 10:33:37 UTC
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
This


you could like, read the devblog... which clearly states why.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3567 - 2015-10-19 10:34:56 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Zappity wrote:
It would not be called a 'sacred cow' if it were uncontroversial. But this is one that needs to be turned into a steak.

Judging from the feedback in this thread it would seem that your stance on the subject is not shared by the majority of people in this thread and would not be too healthy for subscription numbers.

Yes you could just write this all off as idle threats, but if you are in CCPs position would you want to really risk it and be the one who bought a 12 year old game to its knees just so you can implement this?

Everyone realised that jump fatigue and the sov changes needed to be done, and so despite the negative reactions players stuck with CCP as we knew we could not keep the status quo. This on the other hand is much more dangerous as it all to close to Incarna.

I actually think a lot of players have already let micro transactions slip in through the back door in the form of ship SKINs, a feature that nearly everyone had wanted, but somehow CCP cleverly managed to tie it to microtransactions without much of a fuss from the players. It was explained away at the time that it is fine as ship skins are cosmetic items; this idea on the other hand is going to be different as SPs are far from cosmetic.

Rubbish. People won't quit over this. Why would they? It doesn't materially affect your game play if you choose not to participate. I And the feedback on reddit was very different to here, indicating that there is a possibile significant upside.

Don't like microtransactions? Simply don't do them. Buy from the market instead. If this was a "soul-bound" proposal I would be dead against it. But it isn't so I have no problem with it.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3568 - 2015-10-19 10:35:29 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
That is exactley the way im describing to you how TSP works grab a pile of insignifcant old players and harvest there resources for CCP to sell, what is the difference, apart from me bringing this whole topic to your level of understanding taking the compation / history / values of the game out of the equation.


i pointed out the difference; ccp arbitrarily deleting characters.

you seem to think that's perfectly acceptable. which it is, if yours is the first to go.


I pay for mine every month, subbed on all .only over 12 months unsubbed need to go

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dave Stark
#3569 - 2015-10-19 10:36:55 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
That is exactley the way im describing to you how TSP works grab a pile of insignifcant old players and harvest there resources for CCP to sell, what is the difference, apart from me bringing this whole topic to your level of understanding taking the compation / history / values of the game out of the equation.


i pointed out the difference; ccp arbitrarily deleting characters.

you seem to think that's perfectly acceptable. which it is, if yours is the first to go.


I pay for mine every month, subbed on all .only over 12 months unsubbed need to go


so you should have an advantage because you pay? isn't that the very thing you're crusading against?
Morkan Damosty
Federation Gallente Libre
#3570 - 2015-10-19 10:37:33 UTC
Interesting topic. Let’s contribute.

First of all, I consider myself as a rookie pilot (just one year's Eve on next month). What a rookie pilot thinks about that ?

Like all recents players on Eve, I look forward to fly super ships T2 or T3, with all skills coming with. I dream of freedom, to try everything efficiently, without confining myself as a Explorer, Miner, Trader, Industrial or Gang.
I do not like the idea of specialization. In a game, we should be able to explore all its possibilities, otherwise it's no fun.

Also, I do not appreciate, as soon as I try to fly in LS, to be the easy prey for former players who will destroying me without reasons (no money to make with rookies), with their super ship, simply because their senority makes them automatically stronger and able to do it safely.

So, in addition to my training and my progressive experiment, I need skills, lots of skills, the best lvl 5 one. And I think it really goes up slowly despite my remap strategy and my implants.

So having the opportunity to inject SP purchased with ISK (virtual or real) to boost one or more skills, well I say ... NO!

NO and a big NO!

Surprised? Let me explain :

My game interest is to develop my skills as quickly as possible, while allowing me to play and train myself as efficiently as possible. I also have to manage my wallet to purchase my skills, my ships and their fitting. It is difficult for a new player who does not wish to join a corp where all will be given (I like to search and discover for myself). And for that, well ... I have to think, study, establish priorities, experiment, think again, make choices, be strategic.

I have to be smart. This is precisely what is fun (because a game is for fun, isn’t it ?).

I had to choose my remap, my implants. The remap is as much an advantage as a handicap, and I have to adjust my game accordingly.

It's really difficult at the beginning, and games options are limited, but I progress.

I wish to fly T2 or T3 ships, but I do not have the skills for this.
Oh, I can already hear some of you: "What ? A year of game and he’s unable to fly T2 ships?". Yes, but there is a reason for that, a thoughtful strategy, a choice.

Boosting skills purchased with ISK will literally annihilate all my carefully thought-out strategy, and the game would lose part or even the most of his interest.

HOWEVER :

If I play Eve in... x time, having the possibility to redistribut my skill points would be interesting and would open new possibilities, without cheating on the acquisition of these strategics and precious skill points.
I could spread from full "Minor / Reprocessing" to full "Explorer", or full "Gallente ships and armaments" to full "Minmatar ships and armaments", and so on.
Yes, it's "Reskill", and under conditions (once a year or whatever), I am in.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#3571 - 2015-10-19 10:39:48 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Don't like microtransactions? Simply don't do them.

This is the sentence that ended EvE for me. CCP agree with it. Last bastion of MMO just fall down. Sandbox...

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3572 - 2015-10-19 10:40:34 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.


as does creating a TSP.

this system doesn't provide an instant win - some one still has to train the SP just like the bazaar system so it will still take time.


But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time.

Lets say: Your rich in RL, you purchase 100 Plex and sell it in game to purchase 200m SP character on the bazaar. The time and effort put into that character has always been around since it was created, you are rich enough to purchase a decent toon. Shame you dont know what to do with it.

You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE.
Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / £ is not right in my eyes.


which is exactly what you can do now, on the character bazzar. you're buying a big ol' lump of SP.

"Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / £" - you're literally describing how the bazaar works.


If it's exactly the same, then why do we need it? Do explain.

In my opinion it's not the same thing. SP trading system more reliable and safer source of SP. Users of it less depending of chosies were made not by them but by sellers. So it's much better.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3573 - 2015-10-19 10:43:47 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
This


you could like, read the devblog... which clearly states why.


If the answer is "easier access for new player base", then just stick a few ads in game pointing to the character bazaar in the forums. Problem solved.
Dave Stark
#3574 - 2015-10-19 10:45:44 UTC
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
This


you could like, read the devblog... which clearly states why.


If the answer is "easier access for new player base", then just stick a few ads in game pointing to the character bazaar in the forums. Problem solved.


had you read the devblog, you'd know that's not the answer.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3575 - 2015-10-19 10:45:54 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
That is exactley the way im describing to you how TSP works grab a pile of insignifcant old players and harvest there resources for CCP to sell, what is the difference, apart from me bringing this whole topic to your level of understanding taking the compation / history / values of the game out of the equation.


i pointed out the difference; ccp arbitrarily deleting characters.

you seem to think that's perfectly acceptable. which it is, if yours is the first to go.


I pay for mine every month, subbed on all .only over 12 months unsubbed need to go


so you should have an advantage because you pay? isn't that the very thing you're crusading against?


What advantage, WTF are you on about im on about creating a skillpoint pool for ccp to sell to new characters, im afraid my suggestion would leave my characters over 8.5 years late to use.

You asked me why we shouldnt pull points from thin air so i gave you an alternative, old unsubbed accounts. Your the one harping on about the value of anyone being able to use skillpoints. Atleast im offering it to the ones who are said to need it most the new player.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dave Stark
#3576 - 2015-10-19 10:47:59 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
That is exactley the way im describing to you how TSP works grab a pile of insignifcant old players and harvest there resources for CCP to sell, what is the difference, apart from me bringing this whole topic to your level of understanding taking the compation / history / values of the game out of the equation.


i pointed out the difference; ccp arbitrarily deleting characters.

you seem to think that's perfectly acceptable. which it is, if yours is the first to go.


I pay for mine every month, subbed on all .only over 12 months unsubbed need to go


so you should have an advantage because you pay? isn't that the very thing you're crusading against?


What advantage, WTF are you on about im on about creating a skillpoint pool for ccp to sell to new characters, im afraid my suggestion would leave my characters over 8.5 years late to use.

You asked me why we shouldnt pull points from thin air so i gave you an alternative, old unsubbed accounts. Your the one harping on about the value of anyone being able to use skillpoints. Atleast im offering it to the ones who are said to need it most the new player.



the advantage of not having your character arbitrarily deleted by CCP in order to create a skillpoint pool for people.

you're saying that paying should give you the advantage of not being deleted by CCP. i thought you were firmly against paying for an advantage?
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3577 - 2015-10-19 10:48:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Soltys
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE.


History, values (?) are made by character. Not by selfgrinding XP bar being a byproduct of active subscription. Not menioning that with proper bazaar character history is largely nonexistent.

I repeat again, SP pool is not related in any way to loyalty, history, commitment or whatever other excuses people are finding.

It's like that summary on another blog:

"You'll destroy the feeling of accomplishment for training a new skill.

Yeah, congrats on paying your subscription there tiger. I think we can let that one go."

Quote:
Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / £ is not right in my eyes.


Noone is taking that autogrinding SP bar requiring 0 effort and a few dollars or plexes from those bazaar characters. You can go and buy them if you want. Or sell them.

Quote:
compation / history / values of the game out of the equation.


Again, SP has nothing to do with.

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl
Luscius Uta
#3578 - 2015-10-19 10:49:34 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Luscius Uta wrote:
tl;dr of this dev blog:

You'll be able to trade ISK for SP.

So nothing that you couldn't do on Character Bazaar before. Yet it somehow offends many of the bittervets, even people who I held in high regard, like Ripard Teg. Probably because conversion rates are basically useless for bittervets (I personally belong in >80M SP category as well but I shed no tears).

First thing, bittervets shouldn't be so greedy about their SP and could instead use this new feature to make new alts and quickly train them up.

Second thing,skill trading isn't going to turn EVE into a Pay2Win game...now, I wasn't around when PLEX was introduced, but I can bet on both my arms and legs that it caused a huge outrcy from people who did their best to convince everyone that PLEX is going to turn EVE into (another) Pay2Win, instant gratification game.

If there's one thing that I think it's bad for the future of EVE, that would be ever-rising PLEX prices. Why? Because they are driving new players away. When I started playing in 2011, PLEX was around 400 millions and grinding for enough ISK to PLEX your account was acceptable deal to much greater percentage of newer players than it is today. Of course, nobody ever had to grind for ISK, but "pay to play" MMOs are outdated and that concept isn't going to attract many new players.

So move along, nothing to see here.


Incorrect. You were able to buy characters with higher sp. You were not able to buy sp for a char. kktnxbye.



And why is the former acceptable, but the latter is not? Why would anyone in their right mind buy a new alt just to save few days or weeks from skill training?
The fact that skill trading benefits low SP characters much more than vets is the main reason I don't have any problems with it. Anything that benefits newer players is good for EVE, especially with current PLEX prices.


I wrote 4 WOT`s on the subject. Read everything and inform yourself before jumping in discussion if you want to be seen as proper interlocutor, worth time needed for posting explanations.


Would rather not browse through 170 pages just because there might be an answer to my question in a post of yours somewhere, kthxbye.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#3579 - 2015-10-19 10:52:18 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
i, ccp terminus, and the devblog have answered this question. idiotic questions like this are why the thread is so long.

do read.



No, you haven't. We can be sure that you're not in this "for the good of the game" so again, why do YOU want this in the game?
Dave Stark
#3580 - 2015-10-19 10:54:57 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i, ccp terminus, and the devblog have answered this question. idiotic questions like this are why the thread is so long.

do read.



No, you haven't. We can be sure that you're not in this "for the good of the game" so again, why do YOU want this in the game?


it already is - the character bazaar. why are you all so assblasted that ccp are making something we already have less convoluted?