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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3541 - 2015-10-19 10:03:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Someone has spent the Time to develop that specific character to sell on the Bazaar, it would have taken him 1-2 Years to develop something of potential and then someone to use that character efficiently.

Time has a value. Integrating the new proposed skill extraction on mutiple accounts / alts to sell on the market for a 6 month old character to boost him self up to 200M SP because he can, goes against Values and Standards of vet players and effectively the majority of EVE player base.

Character Bazaar is a valid option to boost your SP since the characters have been developed through time and had some history to them. This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.

But someone has similarly spent time creating the skill points which will appear on the market. Skill point CREATION does not change at all. You could argue that extracted SP will, on average, have taken longer to generate since character bazaar SP are generally highly optimised.

Edit: yeah, what he said above

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#3542 - 2015-10-19 10:05:01 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
having things hidden behind arbitrary waits may have been good when the game was new and they had to have some form of pacing... but there's no need for pacing 12 years down the line.

We need whole system rebalance then, rather putting make up on the corpse. Avatar based system was took from RPG game with attributes and skills, if not working properly it's a point when need close look up and change. All I hear: "you may compete but you need to pay".
Edit: Dave, it's become "Dave personal thread about SP", we all know your opinion about it by now. Do you ever sleep? Take a day off, or week maybe. Yo don't have to quote every answer in this thread.


He's a Dev and this was his idea. He needs support or else he may get terminated from CCP.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#3543 - 2015-10-19 10:05:11 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Do you, currently, feel that you can compete with other players and veterans?

I do. My main hitted round 2,5 year 17.10.2015. I accumulated around 48 mil SP on him. I was miner, missioner, explorer. I think I'll go wormholes now (if I'll be still playing). Most of all I gained the experience what EvE is and how to play it. All my choices in this game matters. I've learn from my mistakes. It can't be done in a week.
Where is the problem?
"Leveling up". For some of the players it's too slow. How fast should it be? How we should change it? and why we should change it? because some pvper don't have acces to all ship that he wants to fly?
I can't have best set items and highest level in WoW, can I? I must play the game to achieve something.
As I write before, EvE is based on RPG avatar system, when we remove last thing that can't be bought, we may rename our clones to "slot 1", "slot 2" etc. They will be like frags.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#3544 - 2015-10-19 10:06:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Zappity wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:
The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.

We all buy into the philosophy that eve is a game of trade and competition as it has been from day one, but do you accept that from the overwhelming negative feedback it is clear that players do not want that philosophy transferred to skill points?

Players have never asked for SP to be tradable, and in fact are overwhelmingly opposed to such an idea.

What? This general idea has to be one of the most commonly requested features on the forum! Possibly just below the old 'remove cloaky camping' request, which I fully expect to be implemented with the new structures.

You are confusing the occasional misinformed person asking with the overwhelming majority view of the playerbase.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3545 - 2015-10-19 10:08:32 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
CCP states that there are under no obligation to keep an unsubbed character for any predetimined length of time, why is this an afront to you when you think its fine to disect characters of any age.


are you really asking me to explain how selling SP and deleting whole characters/accounts is different? do you need me to explain how night and day differ too? or chalk and cheese?

please tell me you're trolling, if not... mother of god...


No im being deadly serious, your trying to twist why its fine to deconstruct a character to sell for skillpoints that wont really benefit a new player unless they pay real money, why its an afront to so many players in the game to alter one of the main things that is a constant in eve.

To flip it to you im giving you an alternative, it offers full customization and actually does help the new player / richer IRL player, what does it matter that we are deleting accounts to get skillpoints, theyre under no obligation to keep anything, i dont care about caldari / gallente / minmatar citizen 53820016 who's not played for 12 months who gives a flying fudge, its all about the skillpoints now.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dave Stark
#3546 - 2015-10-19 10:11:04 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
CCP states that there are under no obligation to keep an unsubbed character for any predetimined length of time, why is this an afront to you when you think its fine to disect characters of any age.


are you really asking me to explain how selling SP and deleting whole characters/accounts is different? do you need me to explain how night and day differ too? or chalk and cheese?

please tell me you're trolling, if not... mother of god...


No im being deadly serious, your trying to twist why its fine to deconstruct a character to sell for skillpoints that wont really benefit a new player unless they pay real money, why its an afront to so many players in the game to alter one of the main things that is a constant in eve.

To flip it to you im giving you an alternative, it offers full customization and actually does help the new player / richer IRL player, what does it matter that we are deleting accounts to get skillpoints, theyre under no obligation to keep anything, i dont care about caldari / gallente / minmatar citizen 53820016 who's not played for 12 months who gives a flying fudge, its all about the skillpoints now.


players choosing to biomass characters for SP to sell - yeah sure, go for it. literally no different to what we have now and what's proposed.

CCP arbitrarily deleting people's characters/accounts - not cool.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3547 - 2015-10-19 10:12:12 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:
The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.

We all buy into the philosophy that eve is a game of trade and competition as it has been from day one, but do you accept that from the overwhelming negative feedback it is clear that players do not want that philosophy transferred to skill points?

Players have never asked for SP to be tradable, and in fact are overwhelmingly opposed to such an idea.

What? This general idea has to be one of the most commonly requested features on the forum! Possibly just below the old 'remove cloaky camping' request, which I fully expect to be implemented with the new structures.

You are confusing the occasional misinformed person asking with the overwhelming majority view of the playerbase.

It would not be called a 'sacred cow' if it were uncontroversial. But this is one that needs to be turned into a steak.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3548 - 2015-10-19 10:13:45 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
CCP states that there are under no obligation to keep an unsubbed character for any predetimined length of time, why is this an afront to you when you think its fine to disect characters of any age.


are you really asking me to explain how selling SP and deleting whole characters/accounts is different? do you need me to explain how night and day differ too? or chalk and cheese?

please tell me you're trolling, if not... mother of god...


No im being deadly serious, your trying to twist why its fine to deconstruct a character to sell for skillpoints that wont really benefit a new player unless they pay real money, why its an afront to so many players in the game to alter one of the main things that is a constant in eve.

To flip it to you im giving you an alternative, it offers full customization and actually does help the new player / richer IRL player, what does it matter that we are deleting accounts to get skillpoints, theyre under no obligation to keep anything, i dont care about caldari / gallente / minmatar citizen 53820016 who's not played for 12 months who gives a flying fudge, its all about the skillpoints now.


players choosing to biomass characters for SP to sell - yeah sure, go for it. literally no different to what we have now and what's proposed.

CCP arbitrarily deleting people's characters/accounts - not cool.


Not players CCP, were doing it for the good of the new player base who is fed up that they cant jump into a tengu within 2 days, what does it matter to you that if you cant be arsed to play for 12 months its gone, your going to be fine

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3549 - 2015-10-19 10:15:25 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

I must play the game to achieve something.

In case of traning you really don't. Set up traning quee and wait until it's done.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Dynamus Deckerman
Doomheim
#3550 - 2015-10-19 10:16:57 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
[
Mr Epeen Cool


Isn't that brutally exhausting to type that Mr Epeen Cool below every single stupid post?!?


Some people just think they're just to cool that they got to do something like that to make you believe that they're so cool when they're not.


EDIT: Mr. Epeen, I don't think you're cool at all, so you can stop doing that.
Syn'Drakkahr
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3551 - 2015-10-19 10:17:31 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.


as does creating a TSP.

this system doesn't provide an instant win - some one still has to train the SP just like the bazaar system so it will still take time.


But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time.

Lets say: Your rich in RL, you purchase 100 Plex and sell it in game to purchase 200m SP character on the bazaar. The time and effort put into that character has always been around since it was created, you are rich enough to purchase a decent toon. Shame you dont know what to do with it.

You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE.
Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / £ is not right in my eyes.
Dave Stark
#3552 - 2015-10-19 10:17:41 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Not players CCP, were doing it for the good of the new player base who is fed up that they cant jump into a tengu within 2 days, what does it matter to you that if you cant be arsed to play for 12 months its gone, your going to be fine


remind me how arbitrarily deleting people's characters benefits new players?
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3553 - 2015-10-19 10:18:16 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

I must play the game to achieve something.

In case of traning you really don't. Set up traning quee and wait until it done.

So the past 12 years everyone that has played the game has come on stuck there learning skills in and thought god damn it, ill go back play something else now till i can do something, cant do much in a frigate, dont know why these are even in the game

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3554 - 2015-10-19 10:19:19 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Not players CCP, were doing it for the good of the new player base who is fed up that they cant jump into a tengu within 2 days, what does it matter to you that if you cant be arsed to play for 12 months its gone, your going to be fine


remind me how arbitrarily deleting people's characters benefits new players?


You said we couldnt pull skillpoints out of thin air, so i gave you a totally viable alternative than the ether.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dave Stark
#3555 - 2015-10-19 10:23:27 UTC
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.


as does creating a TSP.

this system doesn't provide an instant win - some one still has to train the SP just like the bazaar system so it will still take time.


But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time.

Lets say: Your rich in RL, you purchase 100 Plex and sell it in game to purchase 200m SP character on the bazaar. The time and effort put into that character has always been around since it was created, you are rich enough to purchase a decent toon. Shame you dont know what to do with it.

You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE.
Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / £ is not right in my eyes.


which is exactly what you can do now, on the character bazzar. you're buying a big ol' lump of SP.

"Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / £" - you're literally describing how the bazaar works.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#3556 - 2015-10-19 10:24:18 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
CCP Terminus wrote:
The feature is intended to allow players to trade resources. Whether that's real-world currency, ISK, or time. It is the same philosophy behind PLEX, and why PLEX is both effective and sustainable over long periods. We don't create a way for players to buy their way to victory. We aren't injecting new SP in to the game. We simply allow players to trade the resources they have for the resources they want.

We all buy into the philosophy that eve is a game of trade and competition as it has been from day one, but do you accept that from the overwhelming negative feedback it is clear that players do not want that philosophy transferred to skill points?

Players have never asked for SP to be tradable, and in fact are overwhelmingly opposed to such an idea.

What? This general idea has to be one of the most commonly requested features on the forum! Possibly just below the old 'remove cloaky camping' request, which I fully expect to be implemented with the new structures.

You are confusing the occasional misinformed person asking with the overwhelming majority view of the playerbase.

It would not be called a 'sacred cow' if it were uncontroversial. But this is one that needs to be turned into a steak.

Judging from the feedback in this thread it would seem that your stance on the subject is not shared by the majority of people in this thread and would not be too healthy for subscription numbers.

Yes you could just write this all off as idle threats, but if you are in CCPs position would you want to really risk it and be the one who bought a 12 year old game to its knees just so you can implement this?

Everyone realised that jump fatigue and the sov changes needed to be done, and so despite the negative reactions players stuck with CCP as we knew we could not keep the status quo. This on the other hand is much more dangerous as it all to close to Incarna.

I actually think a lot of players have already let micro transactions slip in through the back door in the form of ship SKINs, a feature that nearly everyone had wanted, but somehow CCP cleverly managed to tie it to microtransactions without much of a fuss from the players. It was explained away at the time that it is fine as ship skins are cosmetic items; this idea on the other hand is going to be different as SPs are far from cosmetic.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3557 - 2015-10-19 10:25:23 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
having things hidden behind arbitrary waits may have been good when the game was new and they had to have some form of pacing... but there's no need for pacing 12 years down the line.

We need whole system rebalance then, rather putting make up on the corpse. Avatar based system was took from RPG game with attributes and skills, if not working properly it's a point when need close look up and change. All I hear: "you may compete but you need to pay".
Edit: Dave, it's become "Dave personal thread about SP", we all know your opinion about it by now. Do you ever sleep? Take a day off, or week maybe. Yo don't have to quote every answer in this thread.


He's a Dev and this was his idea. He needs support or else he may get terminated from CCP.

I also support this idea. Can I be a Dev too? Pleeeease =)

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3558 - 2015-10-19 10:25:26 UTC
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.


as does creating a TSP.

this system doesn't provide an instant win - some one still has to train the SP just like the bazaar system so it will still take time.


But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time.

Lets say: Your rich in RL, you purchase 100 Plex and sell it in game to purchase 200m SP character on the bazaar. The time and effort put into that character has always been around since it was created, you are rich enough to purchase a decent toon. Shame you dont know what to do with it.

You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE.
Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / £ is not right in my eyes.

I will be disappointed if CCP do not add a renaming token, purchasable with aurum, shortly after the SP change.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#3559 - 2015-10-19 10:25:40 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.


as does creating a TSP.

this system doesn't provide an instant win - some one still has to train the SP just like the bazaar system so it will still take time.


But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time.

Lets say: Your rich in RL, you purchase 100 Plex and sell it in game to purchase 200m SP character on the bazaar. The time and effort put into that character has always been around since it was created, you are rich enough to purchase a decent toon. Shame you dont know what to do with it.

You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE.
Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / £ is not right in my eyes.


which is exactly what you can do now, on the character bazzar. you're buying a big ol' lump of SP.

"Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / £" - you're literally describing how the bazaar works.


If it's exactly the same, then why do we need it? Do explain.
Dave Stark
#3560 - 2015-10-19 10:26:42 UTC
Tiberius Heth wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Syn'Drakkahr wrote:
This is accepted by the majority of players because it is not instant win, there has been a process and developement integrated into each character bazaar sale, which all takes time.


as does creating a TSP.

this system doesn't provide an instant win - some one still has to train the SP just like the bazaar system so it will still take time.


But effectively, you are just purchasing the SP and not time.

Lets say: Your rich in RL, you purchase 100 Plex and sell it in game to purchase 200m SP character on the bazaar. The time and effort put into that character has always been around since it was created, you are rich enough to purchase a decent toon. Shame you dont know what to do with it.

You are now restricted to that toon, his SP skills and past history. Each individual character has fundimental Values and standards which make EVE, EVE.
Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / £ is not right in my eyes.


which is exactly what you can do now, on the character bazzar. you're buying a big ol' lump of SP.

"Taking the time and effort away from that specific character to put onto the market for ISK / £" - you're literally describing how the bazaar works.


If it's exactly the same, then why do we need it? Do explain.


i, ccp terminus, and the devblog have answered this question. idiotic questions like this are why the thread is so long.

do read.