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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3041 - 2015-10-18 12:58:22 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
as i pointed out earlier, it's as if all the stupid is contained on eve-o as everywhere else is nowhere near as negative about this change.


Yes, of course, all the stupid is contained on eve-o. Solid arguments you've got there. Place continue with the noise.
shaun 27
Brothers of Tyr
Goonswarm Federation
#3042 - 2015-10-18 12:59:27 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
Is this "Dave Stark vs the world" here?


So obvious that he's a Dev alt. Why else would a regular pilot defend this atrocious feature throughout the entire 150+ pages of this thread.


or hes a market trader looking for the next big thing to make his isk on.
Jared Khanar
#3043 - 2015-10-18 12:59:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Dave Stark wrote:

it was the OPENING LINE of your post.



ok why not:



Dave Stark wrote:

this is literally no different to the situation we have now.


Something that is obsolete is not needed - your statement - so i ask again - if implementing this feature doesn´t change anything because we already can do everything it brings - as you say - and demand for it will be way lower than anyone thinks - why do we need it?

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Dave stark
#3044 - 2015-10-18 12:59:55 UTC
Delegate wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
as i pointed out earlier, it's as if all the stupid is contained on eve-o as everywhere else is nowhere near as negative about this change.


Yes, of course, all the stupid is contained on eve-o. Solid arguments you've got there. Place continue with the noise.


it is a solid argument. you're pretending everyone hates this idea and i'm the only one that likes it because you've read a few pages of this thread.

funfact; this isn't the only place for feedback.
Dave stark
#3045 - 2015-10-18 13:00:54 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

it was the OPENING LINE of your post.



ok why not:



Dave Stark wrote:

this is literally no different to the situation we have now.


Something that is obsolete ias not needed - your statement


for the same reason we have absolute superstars like CCP karkur and punkturis improving the UI, and market features.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#3046 - 2015-10-18 13:01:05 UTC
Cearain wrote:


Every year the game has existed the new player has had to compete at a larger and larger skill point disadvantage. It is only right that ccp would give new players more options to deal with this disadvantage.


This I agree with 100%, however paying more RL cash on top of a subscription to get enough SPs to compete is going to leave a nasty taste for a lot of new guys, that's how many will perceive this. Far better to remove learning implants and max attributes and scale down training time modifiers on core skills to compensate the ever growing distance towards end game stuffs. If CCP want to bring new guys into the game quicker they'd do this, if they just want a desperate cash grab, they skim brokerage fees for our unwanted SPs...
Dave stark
#3047 - 2015-10-18 13:03:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Portmanteau wrote:
This I agree with 100%, however paying more RL cash on top of a subscription to get enough SPs to compete is going to leave a nasty taste for a lot of new guys, that's how many will perceive this.


they aren't paying more RL cash, though.

they can either pay for 10 months SP now, or pay for 10 months sp one month at a time and accumulate it over 10 months.

the total paid is the same, as is the amount of SP.

scratch that, the "extra" you pay will be the cost of extractors. which remains to be seen...

edit: actually, since most people who will be selling these SPs will be doing it based on training at the speed of having +5s, that may offset the cost of the extractors based on training SP at the base rate with no implants (which new players won't be doing because they won't have cybernetics V)
Jared Khanar
#3048 - 2015-10-18 13:07:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Dave Stark wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
This I agree with 100%, however paying more RL cash on top of a subscription to get enough SPs to compete is going to leave a nasty taste for a lot of new guys, that's how many will perceive this.


they aren't paying more RL cash, though.

they can either pay for 10 months SP now, or pay for 10 months sp one month at a time and accumulate it over 10 months.

the total paid is the same, as is the amount of SP.

scratch that, the "extra" you pay will be the cost of extractors. which remains to be seen...



So it has the effect they are paying all this rl cash INSTANTLY. how nice they are to give ccp the money for maybe a year as soon as they arrive ... money ccp would have to wait soooo long until they get their hands on it (what a shame, isn´t it?).
And if you can fly the ship you like now... maybe as a new player ... theres clearly no need to invest in further plexes to buy these ... or alts to support them ... which also get an sp boost maybe ...

Got it :)

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Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3049 - 2015-10-18 13:09:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Delegate
Cearain wrote:
Delegate wrote:
Cearain wrote:
It would be an added option in the game not a requirement. They can still wait to train into ships and based on the costs in the Aurum store most will wait most of the time. A few may exercise this option, or buy a character. But this isn't changing much.


Actually it does change a lot in new player experience. After this, a player starting the game will be unable to compete not only with older players but also with those of his peers that bought SP. So he will receive a very clear message: first pay for the sub, then grid/pay for the ISK and finally pay for the progress (or be left behind). There is a major difference from character bazaar here. A player with say 2-4m SP isn't going to engage in activities targeted by a 30m SP char bough off the bazaar. But he will meet players of similar age that performs better than him, because, for example, they bought 1.2m SP in core skills. After this change retention in new subs will drop.

[...]

I do not understand you point about the bazarr. If new player A does not buy a character from the bazarr but player B does then player A will not be as competitive as player B.

[...]


But the 2-4m SP A will not be doing stuff that B will engage in. Nevertheless A will meet a direct competitor C, that plays in the same league than A, but is stronger due to 1.2m bought SP. For a new player experience that is a big turn down.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#3050 - 2015-10-18 13:18:08 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
This I agree with 100%, however paying more RL cash on top of a subscription to get enough SPs to compete is going to leave a nasty taste for a lot of new guys, that's how many will perceive this.


they aren't paying more RL cash, though.

they can either pay for 10 months SP now, or pay for 10 months sp one month at a time and accumulate it over 10 months.

the total paid is the same, as is the amount of SP.

scratch that, the "extra" you pay will be the cost of extractors. which remains to be seen...


More *upfront* and my point is that will be the PERCEPTION for many ... maybe not technically accurate when logically dissected but that doesn't really matter does it ? If new players perceive that CCP is reaming them for RL cash right at the start of their EvE experience they will be less likely to stick around and some may not subscribe at all. The very fact that some posters in this thread are citing the skill gap/veteran advantage demonstrates that the perception of needing more skillpoints exists and so the perception that a new player will need to pay for a sub and X amount of Skillpoints will be held by many and it won't be popular, it will seem like CCP fleecing new players.

I am all for buffing newbros, give them more starting SPs, buff cerebral accelerators, make training times shorter, remove learning implants and fix the attributes at maximum level... whatever CCP can do to speed up entry to the game without asking new guys to pay more than the sub. It ought to get more people to subscribe.

Seems to me like a choice between longer term new player recruitment tactics vs. a short term cynical cash grab.
Dave stark
#3051 - 2015-10-18 13:18:21 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
how nice they are to give ccp the money for maybe a year as soon as they arrive ... money ccp would have to wait soooo long until they get their hands on it (what a shame, isn´t it?).


erm. 12 month subscriptions are already a thing.
Dave stark
#3052 - 2015-10-18 13:20:20 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
a short term cynical cash grab.


it's no more of a cash grab than we already have.

you either buy a character - or you buy SP packets. you won't do both. it's not a new cash grab you're just moving from character transfer revenue to skill extractor/aur revenue.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3053 - 2015-10-18 13:20:22 UTC
Delegate wrote:
Actually it does change a lot in new player experience. After this, a player starting the game will be unable to compete not only with older players but also with those of his peers that bought SP. So he will receive a very clear message: first pay for the sub, then grid/pay for the ISK and finally pay for the progress (or be left behind). There is a major difference from character bazaar here. A player with say 2-4m SP isn't going to engage in activities targeted by a 30m SP char bough off the bazaar. But he will meet players of similar age that performs better than him, because, for example, they bought 1.2m SP in core skills. After this change retention in new subs will drop.
It could change new players' perception, which unfortunately is not good.

But nothing really changes, because EVE is far from a battle arena game.

There are infinite possible objectives, and infinite ways to compete.


A geniunely new player with no 'boosts' (SP, PLEX, etc.) whatsoever that for example tries to learn PVP and joins a good corp will 'win' EVE (have fun, enjoy the game) much more than someone that buys a 50M char just to make more ISK/h running L4 missions in highsec.


We all know by now that a good NPE is getting people into fun group play ASAP. The option, or lack of it, to buy SP or ISK makes no significant difference (except probably corps offering packets to newbros to help them out).

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Jared Khanar
#3054 - 2015-10-18 13:21:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Simply ty sp generation non-linear to character age if on a payed account - the older the char gets - the lower the generation - maybe cap at xy mio sp so generationspeed gets not lower anymore. newer players catching up - problem solved. no need for additional payment. coded in maybe hours only - cheap development.

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Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
#3055 - 2015-10-18 13:22:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Interfly Ghormenheist
Dave Stark, you had my answer. And you still have not proven my argument wrong.

Dave Stark wrote:
[funfact; this isn't the only place for feedback.


It is the place where this discussion is taking place. I wish you would back up your claim against my argument here, in a dialectical way.

Last time that “greed was good”, the information was leaked. In 2015 it was posted.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3056 - 2015-10-18 13:22:26 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Simply ty sp generation non-linear to character age if on a payed account - the older the char gets - the lower the generation - newer players catching up - problem solved
Ehmmmmm..... that's already the case, go check the time vs. benefit of lvl V skills.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Dave stark
#3057 - 2015-10-18 13:22:54 UTC
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:
Dave Stark, you had my answer. And you still have not proven my argument wrong.

Dave Stark wrote:
[funfact; this isn't the only place for feedback.


It is the place where this discussion is taking place. I wish you would back up your claim against my argument here, in a dialectiacal way.


what claim?
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#3058 - 2015-10-18 13:24:40 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
Cearain wrote:


Every year the game has existed the new player has had to compete at a larger and larger skill point disadvantage. It is only right that ccp would give new players more options to deal with this disadvantage.


This I agree with 100%, however paying more RL cash on top of a subscription to get enough SPs to compete is going to leave a nasty taste for a lot of new guys, that's how many will perceive this. Far better to remove learning implants and max attributes and scale down training time modifiers on core skills to compensate the ever growing distance towards end game stuffs. If CCP want to bring new guys into the game quicker they'd do this, if they just want a desperate cash grab, they skim brokerage fees for our unwanted SPs...



So you think CCP is desperate too huh. Well if they are desperate for cash to keep this game alive, I can understand them wanting to do something like this. But if it's sheer greed, then that's another matter. Either way there are other more appropriate alternatives that I'm willing to share if a Dev shows up to seek inquiries.
Jared Khanar
#3059 - 2015-10-18 13:25:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Jared Khanar wrote:
Simply ty sp generation non-linear to character age if on a payed account - the older the char gets - the lower the generation - newer players catching up - problem solved
Ehmmmmm..... that's already the case, go check the time vs. benefit of lvl V skills.


EDIT: thats a different mechanic i believe - i refer to generall / overall sp generation speed not bound to a specific skill or its level
But i noticed that sp amount would be a much better indicator than character age

example:

training the same specific skill from level 1 to 5 takes

character between 0 - 10m sp - 2 days
character between 10-20m sp - 5 days
character between 20-30m sp 10 days
character above 30m sp - 20 days

New players are training faster - catching up, closing the gap, but never reaching older players - only getting competitive! but also having the time to learn what they are doing - iterate on this

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Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
#3060 - 2015-10-18 13:26:58 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:
Dave Stark, you had my answer. And you still have not proven my argument wrong.

Dave Stark wrote:
[funfact; this isn't the only place for feedback.


It is the place where this discussion is taking place. I wish you would back up your claim against my argument here, in a dialectiacal way.


what claim?


Sorry, but it is up to you to follow the thread. If you can not keep track of the discourse, my suggestion would be to wind down your posting activity. I wish for quality instead of quantity when taking place in an argument.

Last time that “greed was good”, the information was leaked. In 2015 it was posted.