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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2941 - 2015-10-18 09:29:07 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
It is a fine distinction,indeed the SP does take time to accrue, and time has value.
What value does time have in this instance? If that value is only that it takes time to accrue SP that makes buying SP and buying time indistinguishable.
The value of time is subjective, not everybody values it in the same way, or at the same rate; which is why it's such a fine distinction.
If we can't define a value that time has, how can you be sure that's what people are buying on the bazaar?

I'm not trying to be dismissive, but to claim there is a distinction between time and SP in regard to character sales probably means we should need to define that distinction for it to have any meaning. To me it lacks a distinction for the very reason of not being able to define one.

I imagine that for those that have no issue with the proposed it's the same.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2942 - 2015-10-18 09:32:24 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
But beyond the typical slippery slope what objections do you have?


If have edited my last posting, you may also like to read my history in this thread. Allow me to not repost all this.

You only furthered the slippery slope and worse, assumed I felt some obligation to participate in every service CCP offers, existing or otherwise.

That considered I hope you'll excuse my not wanting to review your post history for more of the same.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2943 - 2015-10-18 09:33:43 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
If this hits TQ myself and many others will no longer pay for a subscription and instead just use PLEX with the ISK you farm via this effortless mechanic. PLEX prices will rise to new heights. To the detriment of the player who actually farms ISK via some other mechanic to get the PLEX and actually needs the SP to train new skills.
Yes, but I don't think you'll be able to completely pay for a sub by forfeiting that sub's SP gains.

Though some (current char bazaar sellers) pay subs or PLEX just to farm SP on an account, most actually PLAY with their subbed accounts (alts included).


If a sub (or PLEX) gives you:

1 month play time

+

1.8M SP (more or less)


Why do you think you should get a full PLEX back by selling just the SP component of a PLEX's worth?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2944 - 2015-10-18 09:36:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Read the last 150 pages and you'll see a bunch of other ways to abuse this feature.
And it's not a 'typical slippery slope' argument either. Because this is a massive shift in philosophy by CCP here towards paying to win. It's not quite paying to win, but it certainly is paying to bypass game features in a massively larger way.

I read much of the 1st 50 pages when I was initially active and found no plausible abuse cases that pose issues (most of the cases were based on poor reading or understanding of the proposed). Reading the last few yielded no new ones either.

It just comes down to people not feeling right that purchased SP can have allocation chosen by the buyer rather than the seller and under their own in game identity, which I don't see as a problem.

Really the only change I'd make is for the diminishing to start sooner and faster, and have an actual cap at which no more can be applied, but even then that's just personal sensibilities.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#2945 - 2015-10-18 09:36:42 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
The value of time is subjective, not everybody values it in the same way, or at the same rate; which is why it's such a fine distinction.
If we can't define a value that time has, how can you be sure that's what people are buying on the bazaar?
How can I define how other people value time? It's impossible for me to do so.

Quote:
I'm not trying to be dismissive, but to claim there is a distinction between time and SP in regard to character sales probably means we should need to define that distinction for it to have any meaning. To me it lacks a distinction for the very reason of not being able to define one.
I can see where you're coming from but no. How you value time is unique to you, how I value time is unique to me, and that goes for every other player, some people value of time may share some commonality but each will be unique in some way. The distinction is there it is just incredibly hard to say what it is.


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Dave Stark
#2946 - 2015-10-18 09:37:49 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
If this hits TQ myself and many others will no longer pay for a subscription and instead just use PLEX with the ISK you farm via this effortless mechanic. PLEX prices will rise to new heights. To the detriment of the player who actually farms ISK via some other mechanic to get the PLEX and actually needs the SP to train new skills.
Yes, but I don't think you'll be able to completely pay for a sub by forfeiting that sub's SP gains.

Though some (current char bazaar sellers) pay subs or PLEX just to farm SP on an account, most actually PLAY with their subbed accounts (alts included).


If a sub (or PLEX) gives you:

1 month play time

+

1.8M SP (more or less)


Why do you think you should get a full PLEX back by selling just the SP component of a PLEX's worth?


because the only way to accrue SP is to have an active subscription. they are the same thing. one cannot exist without the other.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2947 - 2015-10-18 09:39:46 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
The value of time is subjective, not everybody values it in the same way, or at the same rate; which is why it's such a fine distinction.
If we can't define a value that time has, how can you be sure that's what people are buying on the bazaar?
How can I define how other people value time? It's impossible for me to do so.

Quote:
I'm not trying to be dismissive, but to claim there is a distinction between time and SP in regard to character sales probably means we should need to define that distinction for it to have any meaning. To me it lacks a distinction for the very reason of not being able to define one.
I can see where you're coming from but no. How you value time is unique to you, how I value time is unique to me, and that goes for every other player, some people value of time may share some commonality but each will be unique in some way. The distinction is there it is just incredibly hard to say what it is.
That leaves the question of how you can be sure it's actually a factor. The only thing I can really see from this is uncertainty since the value can't be defined or compared to the SP.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2948 - 2015-10-18 09:43:44 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Astroyka wrote:
General Lootit wrote:

Mike, what personal reasone you have to dislike this idea? How it will affects you personally?


I really hope Mike is not speaking too much from personal opinion, he's a CSM and should be speaking from a wider viewpoint, which I believe he is.

He definitely speaking for him selfe in that case
Mike Azariah wrote:

I dislike the Character Bazaar so of course I will dislike the new TSP's as they are similar (not the same, though)

but most personal opinion(without any personal reason) I could read from him about this topic is
Mike Azariah wrote:

I am also against this. I could go into details but . . . this feels wrong to me. Against what I thought the game to be.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Jared Khanar
#2949 - 2015-10-18 09:44:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

You only furthered the slippery slope and worse, assumed I felt some obligation to participate in every service CCP offers, existing or otherwise.

That considered I hope you'll excuse my not wanting to review your post history for more of the same.


It´s your good right to hold prejudices without checking. Please proceed. I´m gone soon anyways :) Doesn´t matter

EDIT: Please understand - i don´t know you, so i´m in no way able to make assumptions on your behavior - so i didn´t ;)

Economic Services

trading spacepixels
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#2950 - 2015-10-18 09:46:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Daniela Doran wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
Hopefully what you said is true and CCP decides to abort this atrocious idea in a respectful time frame.
No, no, no, no.. no. You misunderstand me, I said that CCP need to get it right.



In case you haven't notice CCP seems to be having trouble with "getting it right" these days. And the margin for error with this is microscopic. Are you that confident they can get this right considering their latest track record?
That all depends on what you think they've got wrong, on some recent developments I have no opinion at all, on others my definition of right or wrong is going to differ from yours.

CCP are suffering from the same malaise that is affecting the rest of the MMO industry, the demographic is changing and the overall player pool has shrunk. A perceived fall in numbers is by no means unique to Eve as an MMO.

That they are trying new stuff in order to fight that malaise shows that they are aware of it, and actively doing something about it. Some stuff is going to work, other stuff is not; which is which is anybody's guess at the moment.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2951 - 2015-10-18 09:50:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Jared Khanar wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

You only furthered the slippery slope and worse, assumed I felt some obligation to participate in every service CCP offers, existing or otherwise.

That considered I hope you'll excuse my not wanting to review your post history for more of the same.


It´s your good right to hold prejudices without checking. Please proceed. I´m gone soon anyways :) Doesn´t matter

Yes, I find it fair to hold prejudices regarding your past posts given the reasoning and quality of your recent ones. You earned that prejudice.

That said, in all sincerity, good luck with whatever game you should end up in should you leave, no malice is meant to you.

Edit:
Jared Khanar wrote:
EDIT: Please understand - i don´t know you, so i´m in no way able to make assumptions on your behavior - so i didn´t ;)
Jared Khanar wrote:
I only hope your RL wallet supports this, but as your are able to pay for not having to play (or at least minimize the needed time to do so) you are ofcourse having more time for your rl work to get the needed money you have to give to ccp.
I'm having trouble interpreting this as anything but a claim that I buy PLEX from CCP to avoid having to play certain parts of the game. If you intended it otherwise please do explain.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#2952 - 2015-10-18 10:01:00 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
If this hits TQ myself and many others will no longer pay for a subscription and instead just use PLEX with the ISK you farm via this effortless mechanic. PLEX prices will rise to new heights. To the detriment of the player who actually farms ISK via some other mechanic to get the PLEX and actually needs the SP to train new skills.
Yes, but I don't think you'll be able to completely pay for a sub by forfeiting that sub's SP gains.

Though some (current char bazaar sellers) pay subs or PLEX just to farm SP on an account, most actually PLAY with their subbed accounts (alts included).


If a sub (or PLEX) gives you:

1 month play time

+

1.8M SP (more or less)


Why do you think you should get a full PLEX back by selling just the SP component of a PLEX's worth?

It does not matter if it pays the full sub. It will lower the cost because you sell off the SP you don't need. And yes, I talk about accounts I play with, like this account. I don't need anymore SP because a gank alt has limited SP requirements. So thanks for all the additional free (or almost free) gank accunts/alts I will create if this hits TQ

Evil RatKid
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2953 - 2015-10-18 10:04:25 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
because the only way to accrue SP is to have an active subscription. they are the same thing. one cannot exist without the other.
Not sure what you mean there.

If I play on my main, need ISK but don't need, say, half of my monthly SP, I'll certainly consider selling them for less than half a PLEX (+ whatever the extractor will cost).

Any SP 'farmers' wishing to sell a month's worth of SP at PLEX + extractor + margin will be undercut by any active player that needs ISK more than SP.

Thus, I'm sure 500,000 SP will cost less than 1/4 PLEX + extractor. So, you won't be able to PLEX an account entirely by selling its SP accumulation.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Dave Stark
#2954 - 2015-10-18 10:10:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
because the only way to accrue SP is to have an active subscription. they are the same thing. one cannot exist without the other.
Not sure what you mean there.

If I play on my main, need ISK but don't need, say, half of my monthly SP, I'll certainly consider selling them for less than half a PLEX (+ whatever the extractor will cost).

Any SP 'farmers' wishing to sell a month's worth of SP at PLEX + extractor + margin will be undercut by any active player that needs ISK more than SP.

Thus, I'm sure 500,000 SP will cost less than 1/4 PLEX + extractor. So, you won't be able to PLEX an account entirely by selling its SP accumulation.


what you need is irrelevant.

the thing is you can't get one without the other. it doesn't matter if you don't need the SP any more, and likewise if you just want to afk skill train it doesn't matter that you're not going to log in. you cannot have one without the other.

yeah if you just want to sell your spare SP for isk because you don't need it but you're not expressly farming SP->sk you can undercut "sp farmers"... but you'll do it by like a couple of isk, not by dropping your price by like 50%
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2955 - 2015-10-18 10:10:46 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
It does not matter if it pays the full sub. It will lower the cost because you sell off the SP you don't need. And yes, I talk about accounts I play with, like this account. I don't need anymore SP because a gank alt has limited SP requirements. So thanks for all the additional free (or almost free) gank accunts/alts I will create if this hits TQ
Agree. Though I'm not sure what your point is. I'm sure you can already regularly create gank catalyst accounts with the proceeds from ganked loot.

So there will be a flow of ISK from people grinding and/or selling PLEX to people that don't care about skilling up their characters as fast as possible (or at all).

Complemented by a reverse flow of SP from people that don't need it to people who do (or think they do LOL).


What's not to like? It's the same as PLEX for gametime.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2956 - 2015-10-18 10:11:52 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Ima Wreckyou wrote:

It does not matter if it pays the full sub. It will lower the cost because you sell off the SP you don't need. And yes, I talk about accounts I play with, like this account. I don't need anymore SP because a gank alt has limited SP requirements. So thanks for all the additional free (or almost free) gank accunts/alts I will create if this hits TQ

Good for you if you will be able to do this. But you need to consider that you extacting time which purchased by PLEX. So you are just transfering asserts and nothing more.

Main source of concerns and side effects

Typical loyal customer with eleventy accounts
Dave Stark
#2957 - 2015-10-18 10:15:07 UTC
wrong button
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2958 - 2015-10-18 10:15:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle
Dave Stark wrote:
yeah if you just want to sell your spare SP for isk because you don't need it but you're not expressly farming isk you can undercut "sp farmers"... but you'll do it by like a couple of isk, not by dropping your price by like 50%
It really depends on the proportion of 'SP farmers' to 'regular dudes selling off excess SP'.

If the former are dominant, sure the price will be higher. If the Jita price of 500,000 SP is 1/4 PLEX only a fool would sell them for 50M ISK. But if the latter are dominant, the price could be much lower indeed.

May I remind you that each and every character ever created since 2003 (except if biomassed) can sell SP? Do you really think the main SP-sellers will be farmers creating new characters because of this new feature?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
lord xavier
Rubbed Out
#2959 - 2015-10-18 10:15:39 UTC
The diminishing return scales are laughable. You don't see any real hard returns until 80m sp? Really? I can make a perfect titan and dread pilot by the time I hit the 60m mark. I can make a perfect Nyx or Aeon pilot without ever breaking the 50m mark. I can make perfect dread alts all day.

Only thing thing will do is benefit vets more than new players. Vets have the isk to make instant-perfect capital alts.

Sure, this is benefitial for new players in terms of getting quick and fast SP to be able to quick-skill into new doctrines. However, it will be the vets of this game who be the biggest users of this.

Also: Thanks CCP for devaluing my 178m SP character and every other character I own.
Dave Stark
#2960 - 2015-10-18 10:21:13 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
yeah if you just want to sell your spare SP for isk because you don't need it but you're not expressly farming isk you can undercut "sp farmers"... but you'll do it by like a couple of isk, not by dropping your price by like 50%
It really depends on the proportion of 'SP farmers' to 'regular dudes selling off excess SP'.

If the former are dominant, sure the price will be higher. If the Jita price of 500,000 SP is 1/4 PLEX only a fool would sell them for 50M ISK. But if the latter are dominant, the price could be much lower indeed.

May I remind you that each and every character ever created since 2003 can sell SP? Do you really think the main SP-sellers will be farmers?



it doesn't matter on the proportion at all. you're not going to drop your price by 50%. people will always buy the lowest priced item on the market, whether it's 150m lower or 0.01 isk lower you'll get the sale. why are people going to put it on the market for 150m lower than the next order?

here's the fact - isk farmers are doing it for profit. they simply cannot sell below cost price. people not doing it for profit won't undercut by 50% because... why the **** would you?

do i think the main sellers will be farmers? after the first month, of course they will. even if they aren't, those see above for how the pricing will work.