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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2801 - 2015-10-18 00:11:14 UTC
Dror wrote:

That's obviously irrelevant. It would require much less than billions to get an injector.

What probably happens is that fresh characters get hundreds of millions from the most lucrative (and thus repetitive) method of making ISK, and they realize there's nothing to spend it on and unsub.



Okay, so using a single injector is largely trivial. So a character gets 500,000 additional SP. That sure is going to help. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2802 - 2015-10-18 00:27:57 UTC
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


the bold bit.


The only bold thing would be rhetoric instead of dialectic. I would like to read your argument.


He was referring the claim about infinite amounts of SP? That part is not going to happen. Not with this proposal.

Again, if you oppose this idea, like I do, make a sensible argument, not just a rage post.


I was merely pointing out, that I would like to read something more concrete.

I hope this is to your liking.


Not really, the problem is the decreasing returns to SP packets. Past 80 million SP you have to buy 20 SP packets to get 1,000,000 SP that is you have to buy 10,000,000 SP to get 1,000,000. If the 300,000,000 ISK/SP packet obtains (and this is probably a low estimate), then after 80 million SP means you'd have to spend 6 billion ISK/1,000,000 SP. Or about $100 in PLEX at current prices to get 1,000,000 SP. To reach 200,000,000 million you'd need to spend 120*$100 or $12,000. In terms of ISK going form 80 to 200 million SP would cost about 144 billion ISK.

This simply is not going to happen as a general rule. There might be somebody that stupidly rich in-game (i.e. tens of trillions of ISK) that they might do it...but even still, why not just buy a 200 million SP character in the bazaar for a fraction of the cost?

And it would likely be years before one "profited" at least in terms of ISK. If I plunk down say 200 billion ISK to get a character up to 200 million SP, how much ISK can that character generate in a month? How long before I "recover my investment"? Granted maybe having a 200 million character is "profit" enough. But if I'm new to the game I'll likely die like any other newbie until I figure stuff out. I might be flying around like a bonehead in a T2 cruisers with a mixed tank, guns of different sizes, maybe even different types doing stupid things like flying straight into a bunch of hostiles with no transversal and wonder...why did I die?

And chances are any alliance would not likely take me. They'd see I was 2 weeks old and their API data showing I have 200 million SP. Wallet warrior who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. Granted, maybe I went to the character bazaar and bought up some 8 year old character that had very little SP and built off of that...but then my employment history would look a little dodgy, 8 years in game in a noob corp and I know what I'm doing? Uhhh okay maybe not. And where is my killboard data? My corp requires killboard information as well. No killboard data, no admittance.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2803 - 2015-10-18 00:34:28 UTC
Jasmine Heap wrote:
Even though SP must be extracted to be packaged and sold, it will always be readily available to anyone who wants it.


No, it will be readily available to those who can pay for it.

And the supply will be limited. Nobody can go above the total amount of SP in the game less N*5,000,000 (where N is the total number of characters), and in fact the available total is probably less because of characters on inactive accounts will clearly not be putting SP on the market.

So, if you are going to base arguments on an infinite supply of SP on the market...don't. Just don't. Try to make a more constructive argument that CCP will take seriously.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#2804 - 2015-10-18 00:34:32 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


the bold bit.


The only bold thing would be rhetoric instead of dialectic. I would like to read your argument.


He was referring the claim about infinite amounts of SP? That part is not going to happen. Not with this proposal.

Again, if you oppose this idea, like I do, make a sensible argument, not just a rage post.


I was merely pointing out, that I would like to read something more concrete.

I hope this is to your liking.


Not really, the problem is the decreasing returns to SP packets. Past 80 million SP you have to buy 20 SP packets to get 1,000,000 SP that is you have to buy 10,000,000 SP to get 1,000,000. If the 300,000,000 ISK/SP packet obtains (and this is probably a low estimate), then after 80 million SP means you'd have to spend 6 billion ISK/1,000,000 SP. Or about $100 in PLEX at current prices to get 1,000,000 SP. To reach 200,000,000 million you'd need to spend 120*$100 or $12,000. In terms of ISK going form 80 to 200 million SP would cost about 144 billion ISK.

This simply is not going to happen as a general rule. There might be somebody that stupidly rich in-game (i.e. tens of trillions of ISK) that they might do it...but even still, why not just buy a 200 million SP character in the bazaar for a fraction of the cost?

And it would likely be years before one "profited" at least in terms of ISK. If I plunk down say 200 billion ISK to get a character up to 200 million SP, how much ISK can that character generate in a month? How long before I "recover my investment"? Granted maybe having a 200 million character is "profit" enough. But if I'm new to the game I'll likely die like any other newbie until I figure stuff out. I might be flying around like a bonehead in a T2 cruisers with a mixed tank, guns of different sizes, maybe even different types doing stupid things like flying straight into a bunch of hostiles with no transversal and wonder...why did I die?

And chances are any alliance would not likely take me. They'd see I was 2 weeks old and their API data showing I have 200 million SP. Wallet warrior who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. Granted, maybe I went to the character bazaar and bought up some 8 year old character that had very little SP and built off of that...but then my employment history would look a little dodgy, 8 years in game in a noob corp and I know what I'm doing? Uhhh okay maybe not. And where is my killboard data? My corp requires killboard information as well. No killboard data, no admittance.


I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2805 - 2015-10-18 00:35:59 UTC
Yayyyyyyyyy, bye bye 5 million wasted mining SP!

Been around since the beginning.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2806 - 2015-10-18 00:45:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Don ZOLA wrote:


I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster.


Not compared to the character bazaar. There you'd pay 500 million/1 million ISK. Over 80 million SP, go to the character bazaar.

Sure, somebody could, in theory, go out and try to buy 79 million SP worth of SP...problem is they'd need for there to be 10*79 million SP to be on the market.

You are making an argument based on infinite SP on the market and that is flawed. You are wrong. Dead wrong. Stop posting and go play with the numbers.

Look, I do NOT like this idea. Initially I did, but then I thought about it some more and now I'm not a fan. Go find a better reason to oppose this idea than starting out with....

Assumption: There is an infinite amount of SP on the market and the price is invariant to demand.

As soon as you start with that assumption you are just wrong.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2807 - 2015-10-18 00:46:29 UTC
d0cTeR9 wrote:
Yayyyyyyyyy, bye bye 5 million wasted mining SP!


Heh.

And hello 3 billion ISK (at least, IMO).

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2808 - 2015-10-18 00:50:34 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dror wrote:

That's obviously irrelevant. It would require much less than billions to get an injector.

What probably happens is that fresh characters get hundreds of millions from the most lucrative (and thus repetitive) method of making ISK, and they realize there's nothing to spend it on and unsub.



Okay, so using a single injector is largely trivial. So a character gets 500,000 additional SP. That sure is going to help. Roll


That's a set of small, t2 turrets trained, with the added benefit of their ammo selection and benefits.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.

Marsha Mallow
#2809 - 2015-10-18 00:50:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsha Mallow
The numbers aren't finalised yet, calm down. Make some recommendations alongside that analysis if you can.

@ Teckos btw

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2810 - 2015-10-18 00:51:39 UTC
Dror wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dror wrote:

That's obviously irrelevant. It would require much less than billions to get an injector.

What probably happens is that fresh characters get hundreds of millions from the most lucrative (and thus repetitive) method of making ISK, and they realize there's nothing to spend it on and unsub.



Okay, so using a single injector is largely trivial. So a character gets 500,000 additional SP. That sure is going to help. Roll


That's a set of small, t2 turrets trained, with the added benefit of their ammo selection and benefits.


And that is about it. So, meh.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Jasmine Heap
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2811 - 2015-10-18 00:52:48 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Jasmine Heap wrote:
Even though SP must be extracted to be packaged and sold, it will always be readily available to anyone who wants it.


No, it will be readily available to those who can pay for it.

And the supply will be limited. Nobody can go above the total amount of SP in the game less N*5,000,000 (where N is the total number of characters), and in fact the available total is probably less because of characters on inactive accounts will clearly not be putting SP on the market.

So, if you are going to base arguments on an infinite supply of SP on the market...don't. Just don't. Try to make a more constructive argument that CCP will take seriously.


If there is a demand for bacon, people are going to raise pigs. There will always be some opportunistic players who take note of the high price of SP packages and start skilling toons to profit from it. It is too early to project where market equilibrium will occur.
Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#2812 - 2015-10-18 00:54:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Don ZOLA
Teckos Pech wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
[

I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster.


Not compared to the character bazaar. There you'd pay 500 million/1 million ISK. Over 80 million SP, go to the character bazaar.

Sure, somebody could, in theory, go out and try to buy 79 million SP worth of SP...problem is they'd need for there to be 10*79 million SP to be on the market.

You are making an argument based on infinite SP on the market and that is flawed. You are wrong. Dead wrong. Stop posting and go play with the numbers.

Look, I do NOT like this idea. Initially I did, but then I thought about it some more and now I'm not a fan. Go find a better reason to oppose this idea than starting out with....

Assumption: There is an infinite amount of SP on the market and the price is invariant to demand.

As soon as you start with that assumption you are just wrong.



I am not making an argument based on infinite sp. I made argument on 5-10 players needing less than 100mil sp each. That is 1 bil sp total. Even less if there are less contestants. And that is nothing. If this idea works as intended there will be much more sp on the market as thousands of alts would be stripped of unnecessary sp in order to get some more isk. Not to mention people who will make farms for this. Even if there is it never happens to have more than enough tsp on the market for the instant purchase of total needed amount, they can do it in time. Ie buy 10mils this month, buy 20 2nd month, buy 5 3rd month etc, all based on available market. Maybe it will take them time or maybe they will make purchase orders at 50% higher price in order to get them fast, but they will still get them for affordable amount of isk.

So stop posting before actually comprehending what is said.

Edit: And i have never mentioned buying 79mil sp char of character bazaar but buying 79mil sp in TSP.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

Marsha Mallow
#2813 - 2015-10-18 00:58:02 UTC
Jasmine Heap wrote:
If there is a demand for bacon, people are going to raise pigs. There will always be some opportunistic players who take note of the high price of SP packages and start skilling toons to profit from it. It is too early to project where market equilibrium will occur.

Umm that model misses out the fact that all of the playerbase are also pigs. Both subscribed and unsubscribed. Being offered the opportunity to lop bits off themselves and either stick them on another alt or sell. The subbed playerbase has no control over the unsubbed who may resub and spectacularly disrupt their little piglet farms. If that makes sense.

Is anyone else having horriable Jekyll and Hyde imagery here, or is it just me? Think I'd prefer the Soylent Green, but it's very hard to dislodge.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#2814 - 2015-10-18 00:58:31 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
The numbers aren't finalised yet, calm down. Make some recommendations alongside that analysis if you can.

@ Teckos btw


I have made my recommendations why not to do this in 4 WOTs. If I have to give recommendations in support of this idea, I would rather say remove SP from the game, give everyone all the skills and unlimited isk, make counter strike in space. At least that would speed up the dying game process.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2815 - 2015-10-18 00:58:59 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
So, meh.

Says what logic?

If you have a more interesting alternative, I'm sure it would be a great counter to the whole idea.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2816 - 2015-10-18 00:58:59 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
[

I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster.


Not compared to the character bazaar. There you'd pay 500 million/1 million ISK. Over 80 million SP, go to the character bazaar.

Sure, somebody could, in theory, go out and try to buy 79 million SP worth of SP...problem is they'd need for there to be 10*79 million SP to be on the market.

You are making an argument based on infinite SP on the market and that is flawed. You are wrong. Dead wrong. Stop posting and go play with the numbers.

Look, I do NOT like this idea. Initially I did, but then I thought about it some more and now I'm not a fan. Go find a better reason to oppose this idea than starting out with....

Assumption: There is an infinite amount of SP on the market and the price is invariant to demand.

As soon as you start with that assumption you are just wrong.



I am not making an argument based on infinite sp. I made argument on 5-10 players needing less than 100mil sp each. That is 1 bil sp total. Even less if there are less contestants. And that is nothing. If this idea works as intended there will be much more sp on the market as thousands of alts would be stripped of unnecessary sp in order to get some more isk. Not to mention people who will make farms for this. Even if there is it never happens to have more than enough tsp on the market for the instant purchase of total needed amount, they can do it in time. Ie buy 10mils this month, buy 20 2nd month, buy 5 3rd month etc, all based on available market. Maybe it will take them time or maybe they will make purchase orders at 50% higher price in order to get them fast, but they will still get them for affordable amount of isk.

So stop posting before actually comprehending what is said.



No, you are implying there is always enough SP on the market for players to buy. In effect, an infinite supply. Did you outright say it? No, but it is an implication of what you wrote. A simple inference really.

Suppose 5 guys need 100 million SP. An SP packet has 500,000 SP in it right now according to the Dev Blog. But if these guys each have a character with 200 million SP then they can't just by 100 million SP worth of SP packets. Because if they did they'd only get 10 million SP on their character. They'd need to each buy 1 billion SP. For all 5 that is 5 billion SP. Or to put it in really stark terms they'd need to drain down to 5 million SP 25 205 million SP characters.

I'm sorry that strikes me as just complete errant nonsense. Could it happen in theory? Yes. In theory, I could win the lottery tomorrow and quit my job. Do I plan on that happening? No.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2817 - 2015-10-18 01:01:10 UTC
Dror wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
So, meh.

Says what logic?

If you have a more interesting alternative, I'm sure it would be a great counter to the whole idea.


Saying that most new players are not going to go out and grind 300 million for this. How many hours parked in FW sites would they have to spend?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Don ZOLA
Omniscient Order
#2818 - 2015-10-18 01:06:46 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
[

I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster.


Not compared to the character bazaar. There you'd pay 500 million/1 million ISK. Over 80 million SP, go to the character bazaar.

Sure, somebody could, in theory, go out and try to buy 79 million SP worth of SP...problem is they'd need for there to be 10*79 million SP to be on the market.

You are making an argument based on infinite SP on the market and that is flawed. You are wrong. Dead wrong. Stop posting and go play with the numbers.

Look, I do NOT like this idea. Initially I did, but then I thought about it some more and now I'm not a fan. Go find a better reason to oppose this idea than starting out with....

Assumption: There is an infinite amount of SP on the market and the price is invariant to demand.

As soon as you start with that assumption you are just wrong.



I am not making an argument based on infinite sp. I made argument on 5-10 players needing less than 100mil sp each. That is 1 bil sp total. Even less if there are less contestants. And that is nothing. If this idea works as intended there will be much more sp on the market as thousands of alts would be stripped of unnecessary sp in order to get some more isk. Not to mention people who will make farms for this. Even if there is it never happens to have more than enough tsp on the market for the instant purchase of total needed amount, they can do it in time. Ie buy 10mils this month, buy 20 2nd month, buy 5 3rd month etc, all based on available market. Maybe it will take them time or maybe they will make purchase orders at 50% higher price in order to get them fast, but they will still get them for affordable amount of isk.

So stop posting before actually comprehending what is said.



No, you are implying there is always enough SP on the market for players to buy. In effect, an infinite supply. Did you outright say it? No, but it is an implication of what you wrote. A simple inference really.

Suppose 5 guys need 100 million SP. An SP packet has 500,000 SP in it right now according to the Dev Blog. But if these guys each have a character with 200 million SP then they can't just by 100 million SP worth of SP packets. Because if they did they'd only get 10 million SP on their character. They'd need to each buy 1 billion SP. For all 5 that is 5 billion SP. Or to put it in really stark terms they'd need to drain down to 5 million SP 25 205 million SP characters.

I'm sorry that strikes me as just complete errant nonsense. Could it happen in theory? Yes. In theory, I could win the lottery tomorrow and quit my job. Do I plan on that happening? No.


I did mean 79mil sp in that example which means 790mil sp in TSP. But do you even read my posts? I have clearly stated that they do not have to buy it all instantly. I even wrote you an example.

+they can buy characters from char bazaar and sell TSP to themselves. You can easily buy 1bil sp from the bazaar at any time. Not to mention that they probably already have multiple alts on their own, which they have used to build their economy empires so they might just have to convert them to TSP. So yes, they can EASILY get 1bil sp at affordable price even without infinite supply as they can supply themselves.

There are 2 rules in a successful life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know

CCP Terminus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#2819 - 2015-10-18 01:12:44 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Jasmine Heap wrote:
I've always viewed the character bazaar as something that not many people were involved in. Perhaps I am wrong about that. I never used it myself. My fear with these changes is that it will mainstream and popularize the easy acquisition of SP. Look, perhaps my fears are unfounded, but I know how I *feel* about these changes. My gut says this is the wrong thing to do. I suppose there is a real structural problem with the "uncloseable gap" between players with hundreds of SP and new players, but simply allowing that gap to be closed on existing toons with isk/aurum/plex/money just feels wrong


According to the dev blog on average about 70 characters are traded each month.

Not sure if you consider that alot or not.


Roughly 70 characters are traded per day, not per month. Something like 25000 a year give or take.

Some more data:
- Most traded characters are 50 million SP or lower.
- A good portion of trades are to newer players (measured by new customers not just new accounts).

@CCP_Terminus // Game Designer // Team Size Matters

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2820 - 2015-10-18 01:17:17 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Don ZOLA wrote:
[

I have not played with the numbers, but if your estimation is correct then it is disaster. 6bil per 1mil sp is cheap. There are dozens of players with trillions of isk who will start the competition for top 1 total sp position. Ie as they already have quite developed characters, let`s say 200mil sp and current top 1 having 279mil sp, that means that such player for 480 bils will buy himself that spot. Since i expect more than 1 to actually go for it, we might have all current top 5 or even top 10 players kicked out of those positions. And that is complete disaster.


Not compared to the character bazaar. There you'd pay 500 million/1 million ISK. Over 80 million SP, go to the character bazaar.

Sure, somebody could, in theory, go out and try to buy 79 million SP worth of SP...problem is they'd need for there to be 10*79 million SP to be on the market.

You are making an argument based on infinite SP on the market and that is flawed. You are wrong. Dead wrong. Stop posting and go play with the numbers.

Look, I do NOT like this idea. Initially I did, but then I thought about it some more and now I'm not a fan. Go find a better reason to oppose this idea than starting out with....

Assumption: There is an infinite amount of SP on the market and the price is invariant to demand.

As soon as you start with that assumption you are just wrong.



I am not making an argument based on infinite sp. I made argument on 5-10 players needing less than 100mil sp each. That is 1 bil sp total. Even less if there are less contestants. And that is nothing. If this idea works as intended there will be much more sp on the market as thousands of alts would be stripped of unnecessary sp in order to get some more isk. Not to mention people who will make farms for this. Even if there is it never happens to have more than enough tsp on the market for the instant purchase of total needed amount, they can do it in time. Ie buy 10mils this month, buy 20 2nd month, buy 5 3rd month etc, all based on available market. Maybe it will take them time or maybe they will make purchase orders at 50% higher price in order to get them fast, but they will still get them for affordable amount of isk.

So stop posting before actually comprehending what is said.



No, you are implying there is always enough SP on the market for players to buy. In effect, an infinite supply. Did you outright say it? No, but it is an implication of what you wrote. A simple inference really.

Suppose 5 guys need 100 million SP. An SP packet has 500,000 SP in it right now according to the Dev Blog. But if these guys each have a character with 200 million SP then they can't just by 100 million SP worth of SP packets. Because if they did they'd only get 10 million SP on their character. They'd need to each buy 1 billion SP. For all 5 that is 5 billion SP. Or to put it in really stark terms they'd need to drain down to 5 million SP 25 205 million SP characters.

I'm sorry that strikes me as just complete errant nonsense. Could it happen in theory? Yes. In theory, I could win the lottery tomorrow and quit my job. Do I plan on that happening? No.


I did mean 79mil sp in that example which means 790mil sp in TSP. But do you even read my posts? I have clearly stated that they do not have to buy it all instantly. I even wrote you an example.

+they can buy characters from char bazaar and sell TSP to themselves. You can easily buy 1bil sp from the bazaar at any time. Not to mention that they probably already have multiple alts on their own, which they have used to build their economy empires so they might just have to convert them to TSP. So yes, they can EASILY get 1bil sp at affordable price even without infinite supply as they can supply themselves.


The price of 300 million is just a ball park minimum estimate. Guys going out trying to hoover up the SP is going drive up the price as well.

And guess what they'll keep training too. In fact, the training might generate more SP than they can buy depending on market conditions. If they are optimized for training in terms of attributes they may earn as much as 2 million SP. Depending on market conditions maybe they can only buy 20 million SP off the market and essentially double their training time. So now instead of taking 3 years 4 months to get to 279 million they get their in 1 year 8 months. OMG, game shattering.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online