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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Interfly Ghormenheist
The Caravan Track
#2741 - 2015-10-17 21:49:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Interfly Ghormenheist
While I always have been an advocate of supporting new capsuleers skill point wise ...

... it seems to me that EVE is loosing its core when SP can be bought without limits. There is a thin line between empowering starters and letting moneysacks powerbuy up their hollow scarecrow characters limitless. And I got the feeling that you are about to cross it, CCP.

I am tracing my MMO roots to one of the the original "big three" of the nineties. Buying a character for AFK currency would make anyone an outcast at this stage. I do acknowledge the necessity for the Character Bazaar to exist, regarding black market activity in an age where many kids seem down with setting up an Alliance Tournament. But making an argument out of this sour fact is just as wrong as arguing from a market perspective. This is not about any data. It is about the very soul of EVE Online.

Ripard Teg's plea should make you think, CCP. And I know just why. SP make up a few percent of any result in EVE only, with soft skills and ISK being the actual winners. Take these few percent away from us vets, and we got nothing. Except stories about “walking to school in the snow, uphill, both ways”. Adapt “to the new and emerging needs of the environment”? Definitely. Disregarding the ones who made you what you are today as “obsolete”, as Set's Chaos so eloquently put it on TMC? I do not think so.

Last time that “greed was good”, the information was leaked. This time it was posted.

Last time that “greed was good”, the information was leaked. In 2015 it was posted.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#2742 - 2015-10-17 21:49:53 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
BrundleMeth wrote:
I remember when they introduced the 24 hour skill queue. People went ballistic, calling it the end of EVE. Then, they went to an unlimited skill queue...and no one said anything. My point is...this new idea...whatever...

No everyone was pretty much in favour of the unlimited skill que. Perhaps a couple of people didn't like it but comparing it to the backlash to this idea, the difference is like night and day.


Okay, finally found the Dev Blog thread on the initial 24 hour skill queue and the first page is pretty much supportive.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=989819

There are 25 pages of posts.

So, I'm going to guess nope. Most people felt the skill queue was a good idea long over due.
For EVE that thread was a success. It made it a whole five pages before the whining started.

Anything to do with changing training has been met with a lot of opposition since way back. People get angry, then sad, then grudgingly accept it. Eventually they come to the point where they wonder how they ever lived without it.

I feel it will be the same with this.

Mr Epeen Cool
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2743 - 2015-10-17 21:50:19 UTC
Terraj Oknatis wrote:
I usually like to write huge expositions on my blog posts with carefully thought out reasons as to why I support or do not support something. This is idea is so ******** I won't do that. Instead I will just rant.

This game is not pay to win.

If you do this I will seriously consider quitting.

Reason

Because now everyone will have lvl 5 in their favorite ships and to compete you HAVE to buy the skill point packs.

This process is ireversable. If this goes live for even one month, anyone who takes advantage, and dumps a whole load of REAL MONEY TO WIN will have the advantage


I am going to have these idiot conversations with people.

"Oh you can't fly X. WHY DONT YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"

"I can't believe you don't have XYZ to 5 WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"

"This fleet you have to have perfect skills to fly with us WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK

FU

This is not like jump changes or balance changes this is FU(@@ serious.

If you do this it will be the beginning of the end simply because i don't want to have these WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK conversations with people I will just quit

F(@#@ YOU CCP THIS IS OUTRAGOUS #(*@ #(@*@ GOD)@@)( FU

FU


I doubt this will happen. The reason is simple, no reasonable FC is going to say that. They are not that stupid...or if they are they wont be an FC for long.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dave Stark
#2744 - 2015-10-17 21:51:57 UTC
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:
it seems to me that EVE is loosing its core when SP can be bought without limits.


good job that's not the case, then.
Terraj Oknatis
Project Sanctuary
#2745 - 2015-10-17 21:52:22 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Terraj Oknatis wrote:
I usually like to write huge expositions on my blog posts with carefully thought out reasons as to why I support or do not support something. This is idea is so ******** I won't do that. Instead I will just rant.

This game is not pay to win.

If you do this I will seriously consider quitting.

Reason

Because now everyone will have lvl 5 in their favorite ships and to compete you HAVE to buy the skill point packs.

This process is ireversable. If this goes live for even one month, anyone who takes advantage, and dumps a whole load of REAL MONEY TO WIN will have the advantage


I am going to have these idiot conversations with people.

"Oh you can't fly X. WHY DONT YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"

"I can't believe you don't have XYZ to 5 WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"

"This fleet you have to have perfect skills to fly with us WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK

FU

This is not like jump changes or balance changes this is FU(@@ serious.

If you do this it will be the beginning of the end simply because i don't want to have these WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK conversations with people I will just quit

F(@#@ YOU CCP THIS IS OUTRAGOUS #(*@ #(@*@ GOD)@@)( FU

FU



replace "why don't you just buy a skill pack" with "why don't you just buy a character".

welcome to eve today.


you can't buy a character (technically) with real money. You will be able to BUY A SKILL PACK with real money.
Nindae
D.W.C.
#2746 - 2015-10-17 21:54:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Nindae
As many people before me said, pay-to-win comes to EVE with this idea. And for more, last remnants of possible role play will go to hell as well with that. As is written in devblog, history of a character is lost, but it is not an advantage, it destroys the very soul of EVE, where the reputation of your character mean a lot. Are you cheater and thief? No problem, suck out SP, delete old char and create new one and twink it up with stolen money and start again. If I want to deal with idiotic kiddy twinks with rich parents, I can go play WoW. Sad And when you for example did a decision to choose miner path and now you want to be explorer? Good, but behave like adult and just skill up for the new path without this SP sucking absurdity. Like in real life. Current SP system makes EVE special, as EVE is the only true virtual world and one of last true online RPGs, where your virtual life means something. Please do not destroy it with this stupidity, do not alter EVE into another idiotic F2P pay-to-win trash, where spoiled brats destroy gameplay of the others with money of their parents. Because that would be an end of EVE.
Terraj Oknatis
Project Sanctuary
#2747 - 2015-10-17 21:54:17 UTC
Techos

I am still going to have these conversations with ppl.

Maybe fleet level they wouldn't say that but In normal conversations with people on ts This is going to come up.


Its cheating.

Its pay to win.

Its garbage.
Dave Stark
#2748 - 2015-10-17 21:54:17 UTC
Terraj Oknatis wrote:
you can't buy a character (technically) with real money. You will be able to BUY A SKILL PACK with real money.


no, you won't be able to buy a skill pack with real money. they must be purchased from the market (or another player directly) as the SP must be extracted from a character. they do not appear from thin air.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#2749 - 2015-10-17 21:55:43 UTC
Terraj Oknatis wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Terraj Oknatis wrote:
I usually like to write huge expositions on my blog posts with carefully thought out reasons as to why I support or do not support something. This is idea is so ******** I won't do that. Instead I will just rant.

This game is not pay to win.

If you do this I will seriously consider quitting.

Reason

Because now everyone will have lvl 5 in their favorite ships and to compete you HAVE to buy the skill point packs.

This process is ireversable. If this goes live for even one month, anyone who takes advantage, and dumps a whole load of REAL MONEY TO WIN will have the advantage


I am going to have these idiot conversations with people.

"Oh you can't fly X. WHY DONT YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"

"I can't believe you don't have XYZ to 5 WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"

"This fleet you have to have perfect skills to fly with us WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK

FU

This is not like jump changes or balance changes this is FU(@@ serious.

If you do this it will be the beginning of the end simply because i don't want to have these WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK conversations with people I will just quit

F(@#@ YOU CCP THIS IS OUTRAGOUS #(*@ #(@*@ GOD)@@)( FU

FU



replace "why don't you just buy a skill pack" with "why don't you just buy a character".

welcome to eve today.


you can't buy a character (technically) with real money. You will be able to BUY A SKILL PACK with real money.
Seriously?

Credit Card -PLEX- ISK- New character.

Mr Epeen Cool
Terraj Oknatis
Project Sanctuary
#2750 - 2015-10-17 21:58:33 UTC
Nindae wrote:
As many people before me said, pay-to-win comes to EVE with this idea. And for more, last remnants of possible role play will go to hell as well with that. As is written in devblog, history of a character is lost, but it is not an advantage, it destroys the very soul of EVE, where the reputation of your character mean a lot. Are you cheater and thief? No problem, suck out SP, delete old char and create new one and twink it up with stolen money and start again. If I want to deal with idiotic kiddy twinks with rich parents, I can go play WoW. Sad And when you for example did a decision to choose miner path and now you want to be explorer? Good, but behave like adult and just skill up for the new path without this SP sucking absurdity. Like in real life, current SP system makes EVE special, as EVE is the only true virtual world and one of last true online RPGs, where your virtual life means something. Please do not destroy it with this stupidity, do not alter EVE into another idiotic F2P pay-to-win trash, where spoiled brats destroy gameplay of the others with money of their parents. Because that would be an end of EVE.



See I like this quote because it makes alot of sense.

Your reputation can add value to your character, and anyone who buys characters can run the risk of having that character have a poor reputation.

The only way to salvage this devblog post is to ether throw it in the bin or have it so that the market will support character trading for isk only.

You started your dev blog with bazzar and character trading, and you jumped to skill point purchase with aurm. That sounds like a load of bullshit to me.

I know what this is. This is a cash grab off a sinking ship and it stinks to high heaven.


The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2751 - 2015-10-17 21:59:25 UTC
Terraj Oknatis wrote:
Techos

I am still going to have these conversations with ppl.

Maybe fleet level they wouldn't say that but In normal conversations with people on ts This is going to come up.


Its cheating.

Its pay to win.

Its garbage.


It is no more cheating than the character bazaar and PLEX, IMO.

In fact, I don't think most new player will use it. It will be used by older players to crap out specialized alts they'll use to their benefit....which is one reason I don't support it.

And I think only new players will ask you that question, and well be gentle (in your conversation, blast them in game of course)...they are new and we need them.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jared Khanar
#2752 - 2015-10-17 22:00:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Nindae wrote:
As many people before me said, pay-to-win comes to EVE with this idea. And for more, last remnants of possible role play will go to hell as well with that. As is written in devblog, history of a character is lost, but it is not an advantage, it destroys the very soul of EVE, where the reputation of your character mean a lot. Are you cheater and thief? No problem, suck out SP, delete old char and create new one and twink it up with stolen money and start again. If I want to deal with idiotic kiddy twinks with rich parents, I can go play WoW. Sad And when you for example did a decision to choose miner path and now you want to be explorer? Good, but behave like adult and just skill up for the new path without this SP sucking absurdity. Like in real life. Current SP system makes EVE special, as EVE is the only true virtual world and one of last true online RPGs, where your virtual life means something. Please do not destroy it with this stupidity, do not alter EVE into another idiotic F2P pay-to-win trash, where spoiled brats destroy gameplay of the others with money of their parents. Because that would be an end of EVE.


Well maybe it´s seems like a good idea to some, letting a baby drive a car (because the money - and we need to sell cars). It doesn´t matter that it should learn to walk and talk and all that stuff instead (there is no teacher anyway because... everyone is producing ... cars !?). And ofcourse think of the political incorrectness if you deny a baby that pleasure. All these car driving one´s are clearly only worried about their status, if they don´t chear over this. Also this will boost our entire economy. More doctors are needed, more oil, more everything for everyone ^^

Economic Services

trading spacepixels
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2753 - 2015-10-17 22:00:40 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:


Credit Card -PLEX- ISK- New character.

Mr Epeen Cool


And this is largely how it will work with SP packets.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2754 - 2015-10-17 22:01:45 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:
it seems to me that EVE is loosing its core when SP can be bought without limits.


good job that's not the case, then.


CCP Stark you have info you'd like to share with us ??

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Terraj Oknatis
Project Sanctuary
#2755 - 2015-10-17 22:03:20 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:


Credit Card -PLEX- ISK- New character.

Mr Epeen Cool


And this is largely how it will work with SP packets.



The Bazzar is not technically supported by CCP.

This is

This goes credit card- add skill points to current character
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2756 - 2015-10-17 22:04:19 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:
it seems to me that EVE is loosing its core when SP can be bought without limits.


good job that's not the case, then.


CCP Stark you have info you'd like to share with us ??


The amount of SP in the game is fixed. Sum up all the SP for every character and subtract total number of characters * 5,000,000 and that is the total amount of SP that could theoretically end up on the market.

Any SP on the market has to be extracted from an existing character.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
#2757 - 2015-10-17 22:04:21 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Talsha Talamar wrote:
http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1

Just a thing I wanted to leave here:

Dave Stark 187 (7,1%)
Querns 128 (4,8%)
Don ZOLA 98 (3,7%)
Teckos Pech 96 (3,6%)

Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda.


Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. P


Agreed ;D
It was not much of an analysis though, I just checked eve-search and
took everyone who was above 50 posts at that time ;)

Cheers

P.S.: Also.. do not be to hard to yourself calling you a Kerry.
Its a game after all ;)
Dave Stark
#2758 - 2015-10-17 22:04:38 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Interfly Ghormenheist wrote:
it seems to me that EVE is loosing its core when SP can be bought without limits.


good job that's not the case, then.


CCP Stark you have info you'd like to share with us ??


yeah - it's all in the devblog so i'm not breaking the NDA i'm under by being a ccp employee (disclaimer before i get banned for impersonating people at ccp: i don't actually work there.)

the super secret info is that SP must be extracted from a character to be sold. that means there's a finite number of SP which means we have limit on how much SP can be bought.

you know, if you'd have read the devblog maybe i wouldn't have to explain these things to you people and i wouldn't have more posts in this thread than anyone else.

it helps to read a devblog BEFORE you come to the thread to discuss it.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2759 - 2015-10-17 22:06:00 UTC
Terraj Oknatis wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:


Credit Card -PLEX- ISK- New character.

Mr Epeen Cool


And this is largely how it will work with SP packets.



The Bazzar is not technically supported by CCP.

This is

This goes credit card- add skill points to current character




The bazaar is on their forums and they control the transfer process, they may have never explicitly said we support it, but given the years they've facilitated it, I think they support it.

It makes sense as it cuts the legs out of the illegal character market...in the end, even though it is a form of RMT, broadly speaking, and even, again broadly speaking, a form of pay to win, it is a good thing. A necessary evil, IMO.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#2760 - 2015-10-17 22:07:59 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:


Credit Card -PLEX- ISK- New character.

Mr Epeen Cool


And this is largely how it will work with SP packets.


Which is why I don't see it as a big thing. It's already happening. The people who are doing it will keep doing it either by character purchase or SP pack. Those that are not now regularly buying characters are unlikely to suddenly start dropping RL cash on SP packs (once the initial rush is over).

That's all I've been saying this whole time. T'aint no big ting.

The people inclined to buy SP will now have two options and the people not so inclined will continue to not buy characters or SP packs.

Mr Epeen Cool