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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2721 - 2015-10-17 21:31:31 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
In what EvE universe do you play in that gives you the option to build the perfect toon now, in ours with the bazaar is doesnt but you keep on harping on its the same. If i give you a list now of something i want you create it for me and ill turn over everything i have to you.


yes, the bazaar does. you find a character with the skills you want - and you purchase it.


Like i said your full of ****, sure your not on the payroll


so if the character bazaar isn't for buying and selling characters... oh wait. it is.


No i said a perfect toon with a skillset of my choice, you just refered me back to the bazaar, like i said before your like a broken record who cannot see what is happening here.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2722 - 2015-10-17 21:33:05 UTC
Morihei Akachi wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
… serves no purpose …

But it could. It could be genuinely fun to do, so that people like doing it for its own sake. That would make it relevant and interesting. It’s a game after all. You want to be having fun. So make the things people can do at lower skill levels genuinely fun, so that they don’t feel this apparently overwhelming need to fork out extra cash in order to skip them.

Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to be the strategy that CCP are going to follow.

Low level missions are supposed to make the game seem great? What about that they would still check for their processing efficiency on the market, and how awful it is? What about their PvP stats on EFT vs Lvl Vs? It's obvious that a decent percentage of characters roam around with that level of skills -- how wouldn't it effect their experience? They feel like flying big ships. There's no reason to prevent that, is there?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Dave Stark
#2723 - 2015-10-17 21:33:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
In what EvE universe do you play in that gives you the option to build the perfect toon now, in ours with the bazaar is doesnt but you keep on harping on its the same. If i give you a list now of something i want you create it for me and ill turn over everything i have to you.


yes, the bazaar does. you find a character with the skills you want - and you purchase it.


Like i said your full of ****, sure your not on the payroll


so if the character bazaar isn't for buying and selling characters... oh wait. it is.


No i said a perfect toon with a skillset of my choice, you just refered me back to the bazaar, like i said before your like a broken record who cannot see what is happening here.


because that's the place you go to buy the skillset you want.

edit: i mean, you could go to ebay instead but don't cry to me when you get banned.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2724 - 2015-10-17 21:33:57 UTC
Chrome Veinss wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dror wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Talsha Talamar wrote:
http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1

Just a thing I wanted to leave here:

Dave Stark 187 (7,1%)
Querns 128 (4,8%)
Don ZOLA 98 (3,7%)
Teckos Pech 96 (3,6%)

Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda.


Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. P

Why, and what's the alternative? Do you have any clue why the game seems an unattractive deal for fresh subs?

With this, they could actually play for progression.


One of the reasons I oppose this is that IMO, it will be something in favor of older players. Older players do not need a new advantage.

I'll use myself as an example:

1. I have 123 million SP on this character alone. All totaled across my alts probably more than 300 million SP.
2. I belong to a NS corp with lots of other older players who can help me directly and/or indirectly in game.
3. I belong to a NS alliance with lots of older and some newer players who can help me directly and/or indirectly.
4. We belong to one of the biggest coalitions in the game which can help me directly and/or indirectly.
5. I have been in game 8 years, I have done lots of things and know quite a bit about the mechanics of the game.
6. I have billions of ISK in my wallets and even more billions in assets.

Now on top of this you'll give me the ability to almost surely PLEX one account while still being able to use that account to earn even more ISK?

Compared to a new player what do they have?

1, 5, and 6 are flat out No for all three. 2,3 and 4 are maybes, but probably not at least for awhile.

This proposal will at best let a new player close the gap on 1 a bit. For a few select new players they might close the gap quite a bit, but most will close it by nearly trivial amounts.

I can use this new mechanic much more effectively than a new player, IMO. In fact, right now I plan on it. If it goes into effect soon enough, I'll get a third AFKtar out in the anomalies, I'll keep my PI empire and have one of my alts train AWU V in perpetuity and drain of the SP to PLEX that account.

Will that help new players? Maybe, but just not seeing it.


Its not about "closing the gap". In fact you seem to have a very good idea of what this is actually about: Its about letting people skip a week of skill training for some isk and letting people get rid of sp they dont want or need to get some isk. That's all it is. Its effects are having a sp boosted newbie skip the terrible first month flying tackle frigates and dying 5 minutes into ops and having 3 year old 50 mill sp players like me get slightly closer to flying another of the many many ships we still cant fly.


If the newbie uses this market.

Recall, the newbie has to go spend an additional $20-40 to do this.

Will the average newbie do this? Maybe. But as I noted, the average newbie doing this means that half will not do it all or on an even more limited basis. That is how averages work...half the distribution is the right of the average, half to the left.

In fact, the average newbie might even buy something like 0.5 SP packets.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dojen Kobunra
Yakuro Dojo Group
#2725 - 2015-10-17 21:34:34 UTC
BAZAAR is a present fact, and it is in fact not really legal!!
by strict terms of EULAShocked

name it "CLONE BAY MATRIX" and make it legal ! so any new player may try how it feels
to be a "Sansha Drone" on a legal base!

The Q is not : YES or NO !

The Q is how and when !

otherwise EVE will loose unique position to WOW and other "goldbot" games.

So final message to all the pirates and sansha lords of EVE...
"Help CCP to ´define" your -CLONE BAY MATRIX- Idea

Creating artificial intelligence and drafting spacetime maps is not a game, its a job for the whole humanity.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2726 - 2015-10-17 21:35:22 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


because that's the place you go to buy the skillset you want.


No, it is about buying a character who may or may not have the perfect match.

This is why the SP packets will likely have a higher price per SP than on the character bazaar.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#2727 - 2015-10-17 21:35:26 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
In what EvE universe do you play in that gives you the option to build the perfect toon now, in ours with the bazaar is doesnt but you keep on harping on its the same. If i give you a list now of something i want you create it for me and ill turn over everything i have to you.


yes, the bazaar does. you find a character with the skills you want - and you purchase it.


Like i said your full of ****, sure your not on the payroll


so if the character bazaar isn't for buying and selling characters... oh wait. it is.


No i said a perfect toon with a skillset of my choice, you just refered me back to the bazaar, like i said before your like a broken record who cannot see what is happening here.
Give a list of the skills you want. Make it reasonable.

Odds are good I will find it for you in minutes. At a quarter of the price you'd pay for making one with SP packs.

Mr Epeen Cool
Jared Khanar
#2728 - 2015-10-17 21:36:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
player: But your game is ******* boring to play until you have 50 mio SP or more
ccp: pay me money and you haven´t to (but wait - lets tunnel your money through some other players to cloak this :D )
player: wait ... even with 50mio sp this game is boring
[repeat]

A little hint: if it´s boring it´s your own fault and no money you spend will change that

EDIT: players attracted by this pay and win mentality and are unable to make fun for themselves are not likely to stay. So theres a problem if a lot of features are developed that try to milk them. Because all the devtime spend for this is lost for all other players that want to play the game and get content...

And if you take a closer look at content that got developed for the staying community it seems to follow a sheme these days

ccp: well there we have this nice feature thats awsome ...
ccp: live on tranquility now
ccp: oh wait - deactivated because there have beeen problems / isn´t working as intended / bugged

or

ccp: well there we have this nice feature thats awsome ...
players: but... thats awful, we don´t want this or at least change xyz
ccp: live on tranquility now, we haven´t changed anything
ccp: well after monitoring the use of this new feature we have decided to delete / modify it again because it provides no meaningful gameplay and we feel our community deserves the best we can deliver. If only someone could have known, we are shocked :(

Economic Services

trading spacepixels
Dave Stark
#2729 - 2015-10-17 21:38:12 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


because that's the place you go to buy the skillset you want.


No, it is about buying a character who may or may not have the perfect match.

This is why the SP packets will likely have a higher price per SP than on the character bazaar.


the reason character bazaar characters will be cheaper is because of how diminishing returns works on injecting packets.

we did this pages, and pages ago.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#2730 - 2015-10-17 21:39:41 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
BrundleMeth wrote:
I remember when they introduced the 24 hour skill queue. People went ballistic, calling it the end of EVE. Then, they went to an unlimited skill queue...and no one said anything. My point is...this new idea...whatever...

No everyone was pretty much in favour of the unlimited skill que. Perhaps a couple of people didn't like it but comparing it to the backlash to this idea, the difference is like night and day.


Okay, finally found the Dev Blog thread on the initial 24 hour skill queue and the first page is pretty much supportive.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=989819

There are 25 pages of posts.

So, I'm going to guess nope. Most people felt the skill queue was a good idea long over due.

Ok interesting. Nice find there. That was a bit before my time by a couple of months so I didn't recollect. So it seems the community is receptive to change then if the change is good.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2731 - 2015-10-17 21:40:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Dror
Teckos Pech wrote:
Chrome Veinss wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
One of the reasons I oppose this is that IMO, it will be something in favor of older players. Older players do not need a new advantage.

I'll use myself as an example:

1. I have 123 million SP on this character alone. All totaled across my alts probably more than 300 million SP.
2. I belong to a NS corp with lots of other older players who can help me directly and/or indirectly in game.
3. I belong to a NS alliance with lots of older and some newer players who can help me directly and/or indirectly.
4. We belong to one of the biggest coalitions in the game which can help me directly and/or indirectly.
5. I have been in game 8 years, I have done lots of things and know quite a bit about the mechanics of the game.
6. I have billions of ISK in my wallets and even more billions in assets.

Now on top of this you'll give me the ability to almost surely PLEX one account while still being able to use that account to earn even more ISK?

Compared to a new player what do they have?

1, 5, and 6 are flat out No for all three. 2,3 and 4 are maybes, but probably not at least for awhile.

This proposal will at best let a new player close the gap on 1 a bit. For a few select new players they might close the gap quite a bit, but most will close it by nearly trivial amounts.

I can use this new mechanic much more effectively than a new player, IMO. In fact, right now I plan on it. If it goes into effect soon enough, I'll get a third AFKtar out in the anomalies, I'll keep my PI empire and have one of my alts train AWU V in perpetuity and drain of the SP to PLEX that account.

Will that help new players? Maybe, but just not seeing it.


Its not about "closing the gap". In fact you seem to have a very good idea of what this is actually about: Its about letting people skip a week of skill training for some isk and letting people get rid of sp they dont want or need to get some isk. That's all it is. Its effects are having a sp boosted newbie skip the terrible first month flying tackle frigates and dying 5 minutes into ops and having 3 year old 50 mill sp players like me get slightly closer to flying another of the many many ships we still cant fly.


If the newbie uses this market.

Recall, the newbie has to go spend an additional $20-40 to do this.

Will the average newbie do this? Maybe. But as I noted, the average newbie doing this means that half will not do it all or on an even more limited basis. That is how averages work...half the distribution is the right of the average, half to the left.

In fact, the average newbie might even buy something like 0.5 SP packets.

Why imply that PLEX is the only method of purchase? Probably the most-mentioned method of making ISK for newbies is sitting in a FW site, which is plenty.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#2732 - 2015-10-17 21:41:39 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
yes, the bazaar does. you find a character with the skills you want - and you purchase it.


Like i said your full of ****, sure your not on the payroll


so if the character bazaar isn't for buying and selling characters... oh wait. it is.


No i said a perfect toon with a skillset of my choice, you just refered me back to the bazaar, like i said before your like a broken record who cannot see what is happening here.


because that's the place you go to buy the skillset you want.

edit: i mean, you could go to ebay instead but don't cry to me when you get banned.

His point is that you can't get a perfect character from the bazaar which you will be able to do so with the neural packets.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2733 - 2015-10-17 21:42:30 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Give a list of the skills you want. Make it reasonable.

Odds are good I will find it for you in minutes. At a quarter of the price you'd pay for making one with SP packs.

Mr Epeen Cool


This is pretty much true. There are people who train alts for sale. They can be very good at it. If they think a perfect Tengu pilot is a good bet they'll set up the skill queue for a perfect tengu pilot and you are highly unlikely to find Omber Processing in that characters skill set.

However, not all characters on the bazaar are like that. You might have something off the normal path and it might be harder to find. Note Mr. Epeen said "reasonable" I'd have used something like "typical" or "what sells well".

This proposed market will let players looking for something that is atypical or does not sell well get those characters quickly. In and of itself that is generally a good thing.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2734 - 2015-10-17 21:43:22 UTC
Dror wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Chrome Veinss wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
One of the reasons I oppose this is that IMO, it will be something in favor of older players. Older players do not need a new advantage.

I'll use myself as an example:

1. I have 123 million SP on this character alone. All totaled across my alts probably more than 300 million SP.
2. I belong to a NS corp with lots of other older players who can help me directly and/or indirectly in game.
3. I belong to a NS alliance with lots of older and some newer players who can help me directly and/or indirectly.
4. We belong to one of the biggest coalitions in the game which can help me directly and/or indirectly.
5. I have been in game 8 years, I have done lots of things and know quite a bit about the mechanics of the game.
6. I have billions of ISK in my wallets and even more billions in assets.

Now on top of this you'll give me the ability to almost surely PLEX one account while still being able to use that account to earn even more ISK?

Compared to a new player what do they have?

1, 5, and 6 are flat out No for all three. 2,3 and 4 are maybes, but probably not at least for awhile.

This proposal will at best let a new player close the gap on 1 a bit. For a few select new players they might close the gap quite a bit, but most will close it by nearly trivial amounts.

I can use this new mechanic much more effectively than a new player, IMO. In fact, right now I plan on it. If it goes into effect soon enough, I'll get a third AFKtar out in the anomalies, I'll keep my PI empire and have one of my alts train AWU V in perpetuity and drain of the SP to PLEX that account.

Will that help new players? Maybe, but just not seeing it.


Its not about "closing the gap". In fact you seem to have a very good idea of what this is actually about: Its about letting people skip a week of skill training for some isk and letting people get rid of sp they dont want or need to get some isk. That's all it is. Its effects are having a sp boosted newbie skip the terrible first month flying tackle frigates and dying 5 minutes into ops and having 3 year old 50 mill sp players like me get slightly closer to flying another of the many many ships we still cant fly.


If the newbie uses this market.

Recall, the newbie has to go spend an additional $20-40 to do this.

Will the average newbie do this? Maybe. But as I noted, the average newbie doing this means that half will not do it all or on an even more limited basis. That is how averages work...half the distribution is the right of the average, half to the left.

In fact, the average newbie might even buy something like 0.5 SP packets.

Why imply that PLEX is the only method of purchase? Probably the most-mentioned method of making ISK for newbies is sitting in a FW site, which is plenty.


Show me a newbie who has billions of ISK who did not do it via PLEX? And newbie I mean a new player, not a new character who is the alt of a long time player.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Terraj Oknatis
Project Sanctuary
#2735 - 2015-10-17 21:45:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Terraj Oknatis
I usually like to write huge expositions on my blog posts with carefully thought out reasons as to why I support or do not support something. This is idea is so ******** I won't do that. Instead I will just rant.

This game is not pay to win.

If you do this I will seriously consider quitting.

Reason

Because now everyone will have lvl 5 in their favorite ships and to compete you HAVE to buy the skill point packs.

This process is ireversable. If this goes live for even one month, anyone who takes advantage, and dumps a whole load of REAL MONEY TO WIN will have the advantage


I am going to have these idiot conversations with people.

"Oh you can't fly X. WHY DONT YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"

"I can't believe you don't have XYZ to 5 WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"

"This fleet you have to have perfect skills to fly with us WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK

FU

This is not like jump changes or balance changes this is FU(@@ serious.

If you do this it will be the beginning of the end simply because i don't want to have these WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK conversations with people I will just quit

F(@#@ YOU CCP THIS IS OUTRAGOUS #(*@ #(@*@ GOD)@@)( FU

FU
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2736 - 2015-10-17 21:45:53 UTC
I give up, if it happens it happens ....... a fool and his money are easily parted, if your born with a silver spoon in ya gob who gives a ****.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dave Stark
#2737 - 2015-10-17 21:46:17 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
His point is that you can't get a perfect character from the bazaar which you will be able to do so with the neural packets.


depends what you're defining as perfect.

"i want a pilot to do X" if it does that then it's perfect.

funfact: even pilots that aren't "perfect" from the bazzar (you know, few extra sp here, few extra sp there that you don't want/need) will still be cheaper than "building your own" with packets. so you'll be paying less and getting more.

for building a character from scratch, this new proposal will be dreadfully poor ROI.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#2738 - 2015-10-17 21:47:23 UTC
Dror wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
The truth is Rise doesn't really know what he is doing when it comes to new player retention and is flailing about now with this idea in an attempt to salvage his failed opportunities idea.

I could have told him the opportunity system wouldn't work, but for some reason he has taken that failure as a green light to put in this poor system. There were a lot of good suggestions in the new player retention thread, I'd suggest going back there and getting ideas from that. There was nothing like this idea that was suggested.

This idea will not make any difference to new player retention, in fact it will most likely have a negative effect.

I do think Rise is doing this with good intention for new player retention, but the marketing guys are pushing him on with $ in their eyes.

There's no reason to pretend that you have the metrics of what effects fresh subs. They have every reason to believe, through scientific research and the game's data, that the motivation to experience the game is much more powerful than anything that can come from limited SP.

Feel free to read up on intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation. These have objective commonalities that benefit game design, work ethic, and everything else that comes.

Their scientific research and game data hasn't helped them so far. Have you followed the failure which is the opportunities system at all? I wouldn't be so dismissive of common sense opinions from eve players, graphs and statistics can only ever be of limited use.
Dave Stark
#2739 - 2015-10-17 21:48:05 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Show me a newbie who has billions of ISK who did not do it via PLEX? And newbie I mean a new player, not a new character who is the alt of a long time player.


pretty much anyone who joined the game to scam people, and did so.
Dave Stark
#2740 - 2015-10-17 21:49:13 UTC
Terraj Oknatis wrote:
I usually like to write huge expositions on my blog posts with carefully thought out reasons as to why I support or do not support something. This is idea is so ******** I won't do that. Instead I will just rant.

This game is not pay to win.

If you do this I will seriously consider quitting.

Reason

Because now everyone will have lvl 5 in their favorite ships and to compete you HAVE to buy the skill point packs.

This process is ireversable. If this goes live for even one month, anyone who takes advantage, and dumps a whole load of REAL MONEY TO WIN will have the advantage


I am going to have these idiot conversations with people.

"Oh you can't fly X. WHY DONT YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"

"I can't believe you don't have XYZ to 5 WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK"

"This fleet you have to have perfect skills to fly with us WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK

FU

This is not like jump changes or balance changes this is FU(@@ serious.

If you do this it will be the beginning of the end simply because i don't want to have these WHY DON"T YOU JUST BUY A SKILL PACK conversations with people I will just quit

F(@#@ YOU CCP THIS IS OUTRAGOUS #(*@ #(@*@ GOD)@@)( FU

FU



replace "why don't you just buy a skill pack" with "why don't you just buy a character".

welcome to eve today.