These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2701 - 2015-10-17 21:10:13 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Morihei Akachi wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Morihei Akachi wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
…fixing irrelevant content like that doesn't fix the problem that you're only doing it because you don't have the SP to do other things.

I don’t understand this statement. If it were genuinely interesting, you would do it for its own sake. That’s what "interesting" means.


and for those that find missions interesting they do level 4s. however if you can't run level 4s because you don't have the SP to fly an appropriate ship adequately you're forced to do do lower level, irrelevant, missions while you wait an arbitrary amount of time for you to be able to run level 4 missions.

that, or you just bypass the whole thing and buy a decent character for mission running.

I’m beginning to think that by "irrelevant" you only mean "doesn’t pay as well as some other things." Would I be right about this?


i mean irrelevant as "stuff you do because you can't do anything else yet". that content serves no purpose other than to give you "something to do" while you wait for skills to finish because you didn't bypass it by buying SP.


Not entirely true. Until recently we had a corp that really encouraged new players to join and move to NS. Problem is some of these players could not do even the lowest of anomalies and had to spend their time coming in and salvaging the Havens and sanctums the olders did.

Change the lower level anomalies to make the new player friendly, that way while they are waiting for me to finish a haven, they can run the lower level anomalies and help contribute to the defense index too.

Is this going to be a magic bullet and reverse the trend in terms of players logged on? Probably not, but so what.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2702 - 2015-10-17 21:10:36 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dror wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Talsha Talamar wrote:
http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1

Just a thing I wanted to leave here:

Dave Stark 187 (7,1%)
Querns 128 (4,8%)
Don ZOLA 98 (3,7%)
Teckos Pech 96 (3,6%)

Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda.


Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. P

Why, and what's the alternative? Do you have any clue why the game seems an unattractive deal for fresh subs?

With this, they could actually play for progression.


One of the reasons I oppose this is that IMO, it will be something in favor of older players. Older players do not need a new advantage.

I'll use myself as an example:

1. I have 123 million SP on this character alone. All totaled across my alts probably more than 300 million SP.
2. I belong to a NS corp with lots of other older players who can help me directly and/or indirectly in game.
3. I belong to a NS alliance with lots of older and some newer players who can help me directly and/or indirectly.
4. We belong to one of the biggest coalitions in the game which can help me directly and/or indirectly.
5. I have been in game 8 years, I have done lots of things and know quite a bit about the mechanics of the game.
6. I have billions of ISK in my wallets and even more billions in assets.

Now on top of this you'll give me the ability to almost surely PLEX one account while still being able to use that account to earn even more ISK?

Compared to a new player what do they have?

1, 5, and 6 are flat out No for all three. 2,3 and 4 are maybes, but probably not at least for awhile.

This proposal will at best let a new player close the gap on 1 a bit. For a few select new players they might close the gap quite a bit, but most will close it by nearly trivial amounts.

I can use this new mechanic much more effectively than a new player, IMO. In fact, right now I plan on it. If it goes into effect soon enough, I'll get a third AFKtar out in the anomalies, I'll keep my PI empire and have one of my alts train AWU V in perpetuity and drain of the SP to PLEX that account.

Will that help new players? Maybe, but just not seeing it.

How does you making more ISK show that it doesn't help newbies? It's not about you making ISK, nor is it about you having SP -- except that the average level of SP makes him non-competitive.

This allows them to figure out game mechanics enough to come up on SP in-game -- outplaying the very mechanic that's keeping them from enjoying the game in any deep manner.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#2703 - 2015-10-17 21:11:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
The truth is Rise doesn't really know what he is doing when it comes to new player retention and is flailing about now with this idea in an attempt to salvage his failed opportunities idea.

I could have told him the opportunity system wouldn't work, but for some reason he has taken that failure as a green light to put in this poor system. There were a lot of good suggestions in the new player retention thread, I'd suggest going back there and getting ideas from that. There was nothing like this idea that was suggested.

This idea will not make any difference to new player retention, in fact it will most likely have a negative effect.

I do think Rise is doing this with good intention for new player retention, but the marketing guys are pushing him on with $ in their eyes.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2704 - 2015-10-17 21:11:48 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
BrundleMeth wrote:
I remember when they introduced the 24 hour skill queue. People went ballistic, calling it the end of EVE. Then, they went to an unlimited skill queue...and no one said anything. My point is...this new idea...whatever...

No everyone was pretty much in favour of the unlimited skill que. Perhaps a couple of people didn't like it but comparing it to the backlash to this idea, the difference is like night and day.


Really, were people that freaked out about the 24 hour skill queue? Seriously?

Was there a threadnaught?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Morihei Akachi
Doomheim
#2705 - 2015-10-17 21:13:15 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
… serves no purpose …

But it could. It could be genuinely fun to do, so that people like doing it for its own sake. That would make it relevant and interesting. It’s a game after all. You want to be having fun. So make the things people can do at lower skill levels genuinely fun, so that they don’t feel this apparently overwhelming need to fork out extra cash in order to skip them.

Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to be the strategy that CCP are going to follow.

"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and don’t belong in Eve Online. (And as for “scoped” …)
Dave Stark
#2706 - 2015-10-17 21:13:59 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Not entirely true. Until recently we had a corp that really encouraged new players to join and move to NS. Problem is some of these players could not do even the lowest of anomalies and had to spend their time coming in and salvaging the Havens and sanctums the olders did.

Change the lower level anomalies to make the new player friendly, that way while they are waiting for me to finish a haven, they can run the lower level anomalies and help contribute to the defense index too.

Is this going to be a magic bullet and reverse the trend in terms of players logged on? Probably not, but so what.


that issue doesn't arise from lower level combat sites being bad. afaik, there simply aren't any in that area of space?
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2707 - 2015-10-17 21:15:27 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Dror wrote:
the reason the game has yet to [be a massive success].


considering the game's already a massive success by several metrics - what the **** are you talking about?

30k peak concurrent, with more like 20k, isn't what comes through as a huge feature. Even more, it's a single server shard with over 5k systems.

You're already stating that SP is an arbitrary progression. It's just worth noting that all of the game could improve without it -- more than just a few percents of sub retention.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Jared Khanar
#2708 - 2015-10-17 21:16:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Dave Stark wrote:

i'm not defending anything.

i'm just pointing out that literally every "issue" that could possibly come from this we already have from the character bazaar.

my personal outcome? the vain hope that some one can actually give a reason why *this* idea is bad, not why something we already have is bad.

i haven't had to think about it very long at all - all the counterarguments have been known for ages since all the "issues" are things we already have. people can already "pay to win" (******* lol, it's not even remotely close to that) yet somehow apparently it's only an issue if this is added? come on now.

if you think this system is destructive - well, then so is the character bazaar and eve hasn't imploded yet so i sincerely doubt this idea will cause the servers to spontaneously combust.



Just because there is already something that has a specific form or effects doesn´t mean everything else should be changed to reflect this or new things have to be introduced that also follow this manner in more offensive ways. This also doesn´t make the "negative" effects fanish if you put more things like this in - it accumulates them.

EDIT: I´m very sad you haven´t commented my linked post ;)

Economic Services

trading spacepixels
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#2709 - 2015-10-17 21:16:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Teckos Pech wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
BrundleMeth wrote:
I remember when they introduced the 24 hour skill queue. People went ballistic, calling it the end of EVE. Then, they went to an unlimited skill queue...and no one said anything. My point is...this new idea...whatever...

No everyone was pretty much in favour of the unlimited skill que. Perhaps a couple of people didn't like it but comparing it to the backlash to this idea, the difference is like night and day.


Really, were people that freaked out about the 24 hour skill queue? Seriously?

Was there a threadnaught?

I misread Brundle's quote earlier. There was no argument about the unlimited skill que. Even the vet players were happy with it. So I'd say that indicates change is well received if it is a good idea.
Chrome Veinss
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2710 - 2015-10-17 21:18:49 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dror wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Talsha Talamar wrote:
http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1

Just a thing I wanted to leave here:

Dave Stark 187 (7,1%)
Querns 128 (4,8%)
Don ZOLA 98 (3,7%)
Teckos Pech 96 (3,6%)

Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda.


Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. P

Why, and what's the alternative? Do you have any clue why the game seems an unattractive deal for fresh subs?

With this, they could actually play for progression.


One of the reasons I oppose this is that IMO, it will be something in favor of older players. Older players do not need a new advantage.

I'll use myself as an example:

1. I have 123 million SP on this character alone. All totaled across my alts probably more than 300 million SP.
2. I belong to a NS corp with lots of other older players who can help me directly and/or indirectly in game.
3. I belong to a NS alliance with lots of older and some newer players who can help me directly and/or indirectly.
4. We belong to one of the biggest coalitions in the game which can help me directly and/or indirectly.
5. I have been in game 8 years, I have done lots of things and know quite a bit about the mechanics of the game.
6. I have billions of ISK in my wallets and even more billions in assets.

Now on top of this you'll give me the ability to almost surely PLEX one account while still being able to use that account to earn even more ISK?

Compared to a new player what do they have?

1, 5, and 6 are flat out No for all three. 2,3 and 4 are maybes, but probably not at least for awhile.

This proposal will at best let a new player close the gap on 1 a bit. For a few select new players they might close the gap quite a bit, but most will close it by nearly trivial amounts.

I can use this new mechanic much more effectively than a new player, IMO. In fact, right now I plan on it. If it goes into effect soon enough, I'll get a third AFKtar out in the anomalies, I'll keep my PI empire and have one of my alts train AWU V in perpetuity and drain of the SP to PLEX that account.

Will that help new players? Maybe, but just not seeing it.


Its not about "closing the gap". In fact you seem to have a very good idea of what this is actually about: Its about letting people skip a week of skill training for some isk and letting people get rid of sp they dont want or need to get some isk. That's all it is. Its effects are having a sp boosted newbie skip the terrible first month flying tackle frigates and dying 5 minutes into ops and having 3 year old 50 mill sp players like me get slightly closer to flying another of the many many ships we still cant fly.
Dave Stark
#2711 - 2015-10-17 21:22:25 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

i'm not defending anything.

i'm just pointing out that literally every "issue" that could possibly come from this we already have from the character bazaar.

my personal outcome? the vain hope that some one can actually give a reason why *this* idea is bad, not why something we already have is bad.

i haven't had to think about it very long at all - all the counterarguments have been known for ages since all the "issues" are things we already have. people can already "pay to win" (******* lol, it's not even remotely close to that) yet somehow apparently it's only an issue if this is added? come on now.

if you think this system is destructive - well, then so is the character bazaar and eve hasn't imploded yet so i sincerely doubt this idea will cause the servers to spontaneously combust.



Just because there is already something that has a specific form or effects doesn´t mean everything else should be changed to reflect this or new things have to be introduced that also follow this manner in more offensive ways. This also doesn´t make the "negative" effects fanish if you put more things like this in - it accumulates them.

EDIT: I´m very sad you haven´t commented my linked post ;)


because most of your linked post is about price - which we've done to death already and we can't really discuss more because we don't know the price of extractors.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2712 - 2015-10-17 21:23:33 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Jared Khanar wrote:
@ Dave Stark

You, defending a clearly destructive feature, seem to have a personal outcome of this. Tell us please what is it? I´m very curious.

You also seem to have thought about this very long and are clearly having good arguments for it.

Please tell me your opinion to one of my previous posts: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6106535#post6106535

I´m willing to view this feature positivly if you please be so kind to invalidate my worries.

Thanks


i'm not defending anything.

i'm just pointing out that literally every "issue" that could possibly come from this we already have from the character bazaar.

my personal outcome? the vain hope that some one can actually give a reason why *this* idea is bad, not why something we already have is bad.

i haven't had to think about it very long at all - all the counterarguments have been known for ages since all the "issues" are things we already have. people can already "pay to win" (******* lol, it's not even remotely close to that) yet somehow apparently it's only an issue if this is added? come on now.

if you think this system is destructive - well, then so is the character bazaar and eve hasn't imploded yet so i sincerely doubt this idea will cause the servers to spontaneously combust.


In what EvE universe do you play in that gives you the option to build the perfect toon now, in ours with the bazaar is doesnt but you keep on harping on its the same. If i give you a list now of something i want you create it for me and ill turn over everything i have to you.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Dave Stark
#2713 - 2015-10-17 21:25:57 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
In what EvE universe do you play in that gives you the option to build the perfect toon now, in ours with the bazaar is doesnt but you keep on harping on its the same. If i give you a list now of something i want you create it for me and ill turn over everything i have to you.


yes, the bazaar does. you find a character with the skills you want - and you purchase it.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2714 - 2015-10-17 21:26:02 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
BrundleMeth wrote:
I remember when they introduced the 24 hour skill queue. People went ballistic, calling it the end of EVE. Then, they went to an unlimited skill queue...and no one said anything. My point is...this new idea...whatever...

No everyone was pretty much in favour of the unlimited skill que. Perhaps a couple of people didn't like it but comparing it to the backlash to this idea, the difference is like night and day.


Okay, finally found the Dev Blog thread on the initial 24 hour skill queue and the first page is pretty much supportive.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=989819

There are 25 pages of posts.

So, I'm going to guess nope. Most people felt the skill queue was a good idea long over due.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2715 - 2015-10-17 21:26:12 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i mean irrelevant as "stuff you do because you can't do anything else yet". that content serves no purpose other than to give you "something to do" while you wait for skills to finish because you didn't bypass it by buying SP.


Not entirely true. Until recently we had a corp that really encouraged new players to join and move to NS. Problem is some of these players could not do even the lowest of anomalies and had to spend their time coming in and salvaging the Havens and sanctums the olders did.

Change the lower level anomalies to make the new player friendly, that way while they are waiting for me to finish a haven, they can run the lower level anomalies and help contribute to the defense index too.

Is this going to be a magic bullet and reverse the trend in terms of players logged on? Probably not, but so what.

You're admitting that fresh characters have little to do -- saying it's a problem. How is that not an SP issue? The anomalies are designed to provide payment from a rookie ship through capitals. Why edit the result of a problem and not its cause (them having nothing relevant to do)?

This scales.. through PvP, diversity of options, and exactly what content makes it to the veterans -- SP reduces all of that. There's no evidence that it provides more than it takes away, content being the crux.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2716 - 2015-10-17 21:26:40 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
In what EvE universe do you play in that gives you the option to build the perfect toon now, in ours with the bazaar is doesnt but you keep on harping on its the same. If i give you a list now of something i want you create it for me and ill turn over everything i have to you.


yes, the bazaar does. you find a character with the skills you want - and you purchase it.


Like i said your full of ****, sure your not on the payroll

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2717 - 2015-10-17 21:28:55 UTC
Dror wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i mean irrelevant as "stuff you do because you can't do anything else yet". that content serves no purpose other than to give you "something to do" while you wait for skills to finish because you didn't bypass it by buying SP.


Not entirely true. Until recently we had a corp that really encouraged new players to join and move to NS. Problem is some of these players could not do even the lowest of anomalies and had to spend their time coming in and salvaging the Havens and sanctums the olders did.

Change the lower level anomalies to make the new player friendly, that way while they are waiting for me to finish a haven, they can run the lower level anomalies and help contribute to the defense index too.

Is this going to be a magic bullet and reverse the trend in terms of players logged on? Probably not, but so what.

You're admitting that fresh characters have little to do -- saying it's a problem. How is that not an SP issue? The anomalies are designed to provide payment from a rookie ship through capitals. Why edit the result of a problem and not its cause (them having nothing relevant to do)?

This scales.. through PvP, diversity of options, and exactly what content makes it to the veterans -- SP reduces all of that. There's no evidence that it provides more than it takes away, content being the crux.


Because the content can also be adjusted for lower SP pilots.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dave Stark
#2718 - 2015-10-17 21:29:54 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
In what EvE universe do you play in that gives you the option to build the perfect toon now, in ours with the bazaar is doesnt but you keep on harping on its the same. If i give you a list now of something i want you create it for me and ill turn over everything i have to you.


yes, the bazaar does. you find a character with the skills you want - and you purchase it.


Like i said your full of ****, sure your not on the payroll


so if the character bazaar isn't for buying and selling characters... oh wait. it is.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2719 - 2015-10-17 21:30:13 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
In what EvE universe do you play in that gives you the option to build the perfect toon now, in ours with the bazaar is doesnt but you keep on harping on its the same. If i give you a list now of something i want you create it for me and ill turn over everything i have to you.


yes, the bazaar does. you find a character with the skills you want - and you purchase it.


Maybe.

Maybe you find the perfect character there, maybe you don't.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2720 - 2015-10-17 21:30:43 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
The truth is Rise doesn't really know what he is doing when it comes to new player retention and is flailing about now with this idea in an attempt to salvage his failed opportunities idea.

I could have told him the opportunity system wouldn't work, but for some reason he has taken that failure as a green light to put in this poor system. There were a lot of good suggestions in the new player retention thread, I'd suggest going back there and getting ideas from that. There was nothing like this idea that was suggested.

This idea will not make any difference to new player retention, in fact it will most likely have a negative effect.

I do think Rise is doing this with good intention for new player retention, but the marketing guys are pushing him on with $ in their eyes.

There's no reason to pretend that you have the metrics of what effects fresh subs. They have every reason to believe, through scientific research and the game's data, that the motivation to experience the game is much more powerful than anything that can come from limited SP.

Feel free to read up on intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation. These have objective commonalities that benefit game design, work ethic, and everything else that comes.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.