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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2681 - 2015-10-17 20:42:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Mr Epeen wrote:
Mara Pahrdi wrote:

WoW is dead. It is still walking. But it is dead.


From my understanding, anything walking dead is pretty popular these days.

Mr Epeen Cool


Well there was some drama about TWD's season opener's veiwership...it was only 14.6 million, lower than season 4 and season 5. Which is unusual in that I thought that this seasons opening was much better than season 4 with all that farmer Rick stuff.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2682 - 2015-10-17 20:43:58 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dror wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Talsha Talamar wrote:
http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1

Just a thing I wanted to leave here:

Dave Stark 187 (7,1%)
Querns 128 (4,8%)
Don ZOLA 98 (3,7%)
Teckos Pech 96 (3,6%)

Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda.


Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. P

Why, and what's the alternative? Do you have any clue why the game seems an unattractive deal for fresh subs?

With this, they could actually play for progression.


One of the reasons I oppose this is that IMO, it will be something in favor of older players. Older players do not need a new advantage.

I'll use myself as an example:

1. I have 123 million SP on this character alone. All totaled across my alts probably more than 300 million SP.
2. I belong to a NS corp with lots of other older players who can help me directly and/or indirectly in game.
3. I belong to a NS alliance with lots of older and some newer players who can help me directly and/or indirectly.
4. We belong to one of the biggest coalitions in the game which can help me directly and/or indirectly.
5. I have been in game 8 years, I have done lots of things and know quite a bit about the mechanics of the game.
6. I have billions of ISK in my wallets and even more billions in assets.

Now on top of this you'll give me the ability to almost surely PLEX on account while still being able to use that account to earn even more ISK?

Compared to a new player what do they have?

1, 5, and 6 are flat out No for all three. 2,3 and 4 are maybes, but probably not at least for awhile.

This proposal will at best let a new player close the gap on 1 a bit. For a few select new players they might close the gap quite a bit, but most will close it by nearly trivial amounts.

I can use this new mechanic much more effectively than a new player, IMO. In fact, right now I plan on it. If it goes into effect soon enough, I'll get a third AFKtar out in the anomalies, I'll keep my PI empire and have one of my alts train AWU V in perpetuity and drain of the SP to PLEX that account.

Will that help new players? Maybe, but just not seeing it.
Well, you could give a new player your excess SP for free.

Or, your coalition could... Blink


Are you nuts? When I can fleece them in the market place?!?!?!?

This is EVE man, never give anything away unless you can set up a longer term gain down the road. Lol

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Eternity Mistseeker
Renegades of Eve
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#2683 - 2015-10-17 20:48:45 UTC
This is not a mechanism for helping new players...

If you want to help new players start in the game then you add a mechanism that helps *all* new players, not just those with access to additional RL money or friends/alts with significant ISK reserves...
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2684 - 2015-10-17 20:49:16 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


obviously not, the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet.

Or we could fix content so that level 2's, 1/10 sigs, the easy anoms and such aren't 'irrelevant content' and ignore this terrible idea of 'you can spend real money to get ahead'. Seriously......
The only way a newbie can take part in this is to spend real money.

Ergo this is directly telling a new player 'pay cash to get better content'.

It's terrible in basically every way, old players have already worked out a bunch of ways to abuse this system, it's a perfect example of a bad idea combined with Malcanis's law.
Dave Stark
#2685 - 2015-10-17 20:52:05 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


obviously not, the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet.

Or we could fix content so that level 2's, 1/10 sigs, the easy anoms and such aren't 'irrelevant content' and ignore this terrible idea of 'you can spend real money to get ahead'. Seriously......
The only way a newbie can take part in this is to spend real money.

Ergo this is directly telling a new player 'pay cash to get better content'.

It's terrible in basically every way, old players have already worked out a bunch of ways to abuse this system, it's a perfect example of a bad idea combined with Malcanis's law.


fixing irrelevant content like that doesn't fix the problem that you're only doing it because you don't have the SP to do other things.
Josef Djugashvilis
#2686 - 2015-10-17 20:54:18 UTC
Eternity Mistseeker wrote:
This is not a mechanism for helping new players...

If you want to help new players start in the game then you add a mechanism that helps *all* new players, not just those with access to additional RL money or friends/alts with significant ISK reserves...





^^^the above is a good a description as any, why on a practical level the sp idea is bad.

Not quite 'pay to win' but at the very least, 'pay with rl cash' to get a considerable advantage.

This is not a signature.
Morihei Akachi
Doomheim
#2687 - 2015-10-17 20:55:22 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
…fixing irrelevant content like that doesn't fix the problem that you're only doing it because you don't have the SP to do other things.

I don’t understand this statement. If it were genuinely interesting, you would do it for its own sake. That’s what "interesting" means.

"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and don’t belong in Eve Online. (And as for “scoped” …)
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2688 - 2015-10-17 20:55:52 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Dror wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Morihei Akachi wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
… the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet.

One could argue, though, that that's a problem with level 2s etc. Surely there’s something a bit problematic about a situation in which new players are confronted with a suboptimal game experience and then offered an option to pay extra in order to avoid it. On one reading, that's providing freedom of choice; on another, though, it's just bad game design. I'd be inclined to go for the latter.


most of the skills you're training to slog through level 2s are core skills that impact pretty much every aspect of eve. support skills, fitting skills, navigation skills.

level 2 missions suck, but making them suck less won't magically make skills that are pretty much mandatory train automatically upon account creation. it's still a few weeks/months people will have to endure or bypass.

..And you're welcome to confirm or refute how this is completely a negative design and plausibly the reason the game has yet to really escalate.


what? big words are fine, but at least put them in a coherent sentence.

Key words layout here:

You are welcome to

confirm or refute how

"problematic it is that new players are confronted with a suboptimal game experience and offered an option to pay extra for avoiding it" ..is negative

and plausibly the reason the game has yet to [be a massive success].

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2689 - 2015-10-17 20:57:33 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


obviously not, the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet.

Or we could fix content so that level 2's, 1/10 sigs, the easy anoms and such aren't 'irrelevant content' and ignore this terrible idea of 'you can spend real money to get ahead'. Seriously......
The only way a newbie can take part in this is to spend real money.

Ergo this is directly telling a new player 'pay cash to get better content'.

It's terrible in basically every way, old players have already worked out a bunch of ways to abuse this system, it's a perfect example of a bad idea combined with Malcanis's law.


fixing irrelevant content like that doesn't fix the problem that you're only doing it because you don't have the SP to do other things.


I think that was his point. A new guy going to NS has very few options in terms of making ISK. Even the lower end anomalies are problematic. So they are irrelevant because the new players can't do them and the older ones ignore them.

Change that. That makes sense.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dave Stark
#2690 - 2015-10-17 20:59:09 UTC
Morihei Akachi wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
…fixing irrelevant content like that doesn't fix the problem that you're only doing it because you don't have the SP to do other things.

I don’t understand this statement. If it were genuinely interesting, you would do it for its own sake. That’s what "interesting" means.


and for those that find missions interesting they do level 4s. however if you can't run level 4s because you don't have the SP to fly an appropriate ship adequately you're forced to do do lower level, irrelevant, missions while you wait an arbitrary amount of time for you to be able to run level 4 missions.

that, or you just bypass the whole thing and buy a decent character for mission running.
Dave Stark
#2691 - 2015-10-17 21:00:42 UTC
Dror wrote:
the reason the game has yet to [be a massive success].


considering the game's already a massive success by several metrics - what the **** are you talking about?
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2692 - 2015-10-17 21:00:44 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


obviously not, the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet.

Or we could fix content so that level 2's, 1/10 sigs, the easy anoms and such aren't 'irrelevant content' and ignore this terrible idea of 'you can spend real money to get ahead'. Seriously......
The only way a newbie can take part in this is to spend real money.

Ergo this is directly telling a new player 'pay cash to get better content'.

It's terrible in basically every way, old players have already worked out a bunch of ways to abuse this system, it's a perfect example of a bad idea combined with Malcanis's law.


fixing irrelevant content like that doesn't fix the problem that you're only doing it because you don't have the SP to do other things.


Broken record .... post hiking

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”
Morihei Akachi
Doomheim
#2693 - 2015-10-17 21:01:14 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Morihei Akachi wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
…fixing irrelevant content like that doesn't fix the problem that you're only doing it because you don't have the SP to do other things.

I don’t understand this statement. If it were genuinely interesting, you would do it for its own sake. That’s what "interesting" means.


and for those that find missions interesting they do level 4s. however if you can't run level 4s because you don't have the SP to fly an appropriate ship adequately you're forced to do do lower level, irrelevant, missions while you wait an arbitrary amount of time for you to be able to run level 4 missions.

that, or you just bypass the whole thing and buy a decent character for mission running.

I’m beginning to think that by "irrelevant" you only mean "doesn’t pay as well as some other things." Would I be right about this?

"Enduring", "restrained" and "ample" as designations for starship components are foreign to the genre of high-tech science fiction and don’t belong in Eve Online. (And as for “scoped” …)
Dave Stark
#2694 - 2015-10-17 21:02:38 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


obviously not, the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet.

Or we could fix content so that level 2's, 1/10 sigs, the easy anoms and such aren't 'irrelevant content' and ignore this terrible idea of 'you can spend real money to get ahead'. Seriously......
The only way a newbie can take part in this is to spend real money.

Ergo this is directly telling a new player 'pay cash to get better content'.

It's terrible in basically every way, old players have already worked out a bunch of ways to abuse this system, it's a perfect example of a bad idea combined with Malcanis's law.


fixing irrelevant content like that doesn't fix the problem that you're only doing it because you don't have the SP to do other things.


Broken record .... post hiking


if i keep having to tell people the same thing; perhaps they should stop repeating the same incorrect statements in reply to me.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#2695 - 2015-10-17 21:02:53 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Mara Pahrdi wrote:

WoW is dead. It is still walking. But it is dead.


From my understanding, anything walking dead is pretty popular these days.

Mr Epeen Cool


Well there was some drama about TWD's season opener's veiwership...it was only 14.6 million, lower than season 4 and season 5. Which is unusual in that I thought that this seasons opening was much better than season 4 with all that farmer Rick stuff.


iZombie and Z Nation should make up the difference in numbers.

Mr Epeen Cool
Jared Khanar
#2696 - 2015-10-17 21:04:13 UTC
@ Dave Stark

You, defending a clearly destructive feature, seem to have a personal outcome of this. Tell us please what is it? I´m very curious.

You also seem to have thought about this very long and are clearly having good arguments for it.

Please tell me your opinion to one of my previous posts: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6106535#post6106535

I´m willing to view this feature positivly if you please be so kind to invalidate my worries.

Thanks

Economic Services

trading spacepixels
Dave Stark
#2697 - 2015-10-17 21:04:54 UTC
Morihei Akachi wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Morihei Akachi wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
…fixing irrelevant content like that doesn't fix the problem that you're only doing it because you don't have the SP to do other things.

I don’t understand this statement. If it were genuinely interesting, you would do it for its own sake. That’s what "interesting" means.


and for those that find missions interesting they do level 4s. however if you can't run level 4s because you don't have the SP to fly an appropriate ship adequately you're forced to do do lower level, irrelevant, missions while you wait an arbitrary amount of time for you to be able to run level 4 missions.

that, or you just bypass the whole thing and buy a decent character for mission running.

I’m beginning to think that by "irrelevant" you only mean "doesn’t pay as well as some other things." Would I be right about this?


i mean irrelevant as "stuff you do because you can't do anything else yet". that content serves no purpose other than to give you "something to do" while you wait for skills to finish because you didn't bypass it by buying SP.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2698 - 2015-10-17 21:06:17 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Mara Pahrdi wrote:

WoW is dead. It is still walking. But it is dead.


From my understanding, anything walking dead is pretty popular these days.

Mr Epeen Cool


Well there was some drama about TWD's season opener's veiwership...it was only 14.6 million, lower than season 4 and season 5. Which is unusual in that I thought that this seasons opening was much better than season 4 with all that farmer Rick stuff.


iZombie and Z Nation should make up the difference in numbers.

Mr Epeen Cool


Well there was talk of a football game, and it might go up down the road for example I watch via Amazon Prime, so I wasn't counted the night the show first aired as there is a lag.

And to keep on topic.

CCP please don't do this or I'll quite!!!!! (Not really, well the quitting part P).

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#2699 - 2015-10-17 21:06:49 UTC
BrundleMeth wrote:
I remember when they introduced the 24 hour skill queue. People went ballistic, calling it the end of EVE. Then, they went to an unlimited skill queue...and no one said anything. My point is...this new idea...whatever...

No everyone was pretty much in favour of the unlimited skill que. Perhaps a couple of people didn't like it but comparing it to the backlash to this idea, the difference is like night and day.
Dave Stark
#2700 - 2015-10-17 21:09:47 UTC
Jared Khanar wrote:
@ Dave Stark

You, defending a clearly destructive feature, seem to have a personal outcome of this. Tell us please what is it? I´m very curious.

You also seem to have thought about this very long and are clearly having good arguments for it.

Please tell me your opinion to one of my previous posts: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6106535#post6106535

I´m willing to view this feature positivly if you please be so kind to invalidate my worries.

Thanks


i'm not defending anything.

i'm just pointing out that literally every "issue" that could possibly come from this we already have from the character bazaar.

my personal outcome? the vain hope that some one can actually give a reason why *this* idea is bad, not why something we already have is bad.

i haven't had to think about it very long at all - all the counterarguments have been known for ages since all the "issues" are things we already have. people can already "pay to win" (******* lol, it's not even remotely close to that) yet somehow apparently it's only an issue if this is added? come on now.

if you think this system is destructive - well, then so is the character bazaar and eve hasn't imploded yet so i sincerely doubt this idea will cause the servers to spontaneously combust.