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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#2661 - 2015-10-17 20:21:43 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Its been an eye opener today thats for sure.

For the life of me i cannot understand how some can think that buying a legacy character with all its foibles is in anyway like buying a pile of skill packets - create a clean slate - send said packets to new toon - instant say, tengu pilot - drop a derp a lose your lvl5 offensive/defensive tree - no prob nip back inject a couple of packs away you go again.

what a complete crock.
" legacy character with all its foibles" LOL!

I don't think the CB is quite what you think it is. Perhaps if you actually checked it out and discovered for yourself how totally wrong you are, it would help in your views.

Or maybe I'll just link you the first 10 clean slate focused characters I see to make it easier for you. Should have it covered on the first page.

Mr Epeen Cool
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2662 - 2015-10-17 20:22:10 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Talsha Talamar wrote:
http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1

Just a thing I wanted to leave here:

Dave Stark 187 (7,1%)
Querns 128 (4,8%)
Don ZOLA 98 (3,7%)
Teckos Pech 96 (3,6%)

Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda.


Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. P

Why, and what's the alternative? Do you have any clue why the game seems an unattractive deal for fresh subs?

With this, they could actually play for progression.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2663 - 2015-10-17 20:22:14 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Talsha Talamar wrote:
http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1

Just a thing I wanted to leave here:

Dave Stark 187 (7,1%)
Querns 128 (4,8%)
Don ZOLA 98 (3,7%)
Teckos Pech 96 (3,6%)

Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda.


Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. P
Hey, I was against now I'm in favor!

Sorry we seem to be unable to agree on anything... Lol

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2664 - 2015-10-17 20:25:02 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
OMG you got 2 data points!!!!

OMG OMG OMG OMG.

Roll

Comeback when you have a random sample of players...say 1,000. Until then stop talking out of your butt.

Oh, and yeah it mattes how old they were, you were defending the position that Laz Telraven bought a character 1 week in game, implying that this is somewhat common.


gorski did the same - read his CZ article.

i don't need more than 2 data points. 2 people - players. it's very simple.

we objectively know new players do buy characters. we're not discussing how many do it - i'm telling you new players do it. as illustrated by the fact that two high profile characters have said so and we know new players are encouraged to do so.

i don't need a sample of 1000 to tell you it happens. i only need a sample size that big to give you an estimate of how many do.
Well, as a long time character trader (8+ years), I can definitively say that plenty of new players buy characters. Always have and always will.

Just sayin'

Mr Epeen Cool


What is missing is a relative measure.

Suppose I say 1 million people drive car X. Is car X popular? There are 1 million people who drive that car. What if there are 100 million cars being driven? Is it still popular?

Sorry, still not convinced. Now, you might be right. What I'm saying your "data" (aka, experience is not sufficient).

Yes, a sample, a random sample of new players (say less than a year old) would give us an insight into this. We'd see who did and who did not buy character. We'd have to be careful to ensure that these "new players" are not alt accounts by older players as well. An older player who has worked his way up in an alliance might have considerably more resources than an actual new player joining the game for the first time.

In other words...nobody's got **** in this thread in terms. Neither me, nor you. And I am not saying this decision will be horrible...just that it could end up not being a good thing.

Here is the other thing, people who say, "It is impossible for something bad to happen," scare me. They strike me as failing into the same kind of thinking we saw in the financial industry where people basically said, "Well housing prices can't fall every where." Yeah, but if housing prices are basically going up every where...? I think it is better to approach this saying, "Hmmm, could this be bad?" An honest answer, IMO is, "Yes." Then the next question is, "Well how bad, and what is the likelihood." From there we might have a problem. Going back to the financial meltdown example...they do not happen that often so solid analysis of their likelihood becomes problematic. In other words, you often cannot make reasonable determination of the likelihood. So that leaves, the "How bad" part. What is the worst case scenario? CCP goes down the crapper?

Your earlier examples of the skill queue and so forth never struck me as having this sort of potential. With this one...yeah, I'm a bit worried. Maybe I'm just being a nervous fool...but nobody has posted anything other than speculation and anecdotal evidence.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2665 - 2015-10-17 20:25:02 UTC
Morihei Akachi wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
… the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet.

One could argue, though, that that's a problem with level 2s etc. Surely there’s something a bit problematic about a situation in which new players are confronted with a suboptimal game experience and then offered an option to pay extra in order to avoid it. On one reading, that's providing freedom of choice; on another, though, it's just bad game design. I'd be inclined to go for the latter.

Some of the community has that same idea.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=437036

http://www.ninveah.com/2015/10/death-to-skill-system.html

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2666 - 2015-10-17 20:25:40 UTC
Morihei Akachi wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
… the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet.

One could argue, though, that that's a problem with level 2s etc. Surely there’s something a bit problematic about a situation in which new players are confronted with a suboptimal game experience and then offered an option to pay extra in order to avoid it. On one reading, that's providing freedom of choice; on another, though, it's just bad game design. I'd be inclined to go for the latter.
L2s = L4s = anomalies, etc... PVE is always sad.

PVP, on the other hand, is always good. Had the same fun 2 years ago when I started than now. Probably even more at the start. And I was soloing with 3m SP. Pirate

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Josef Djugashvilis
#2667 - 2015-10-17 20:27:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
Talsha Talamar wrote:
http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1

Just a thing I wanted to leave here:

Dave Stark 187 (7,1%)
Querns 128 (4,8%)
Don ZOLA 98 (3,7%)
Teckos Pech 96 (3,6%)

Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda.


Golly! I thought Mr Dave was way more than 7.1%

Give the poor chap time and he will up his percentage.

His virtually lone stand is almost heroic in the face of overwhelming opposition to CCP's latest wheeze to chisel more money out of players.

This is not a signature.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2668 - 2015-10-17 20:27:45 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Talsha Talamar wrote:
http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1

Just a thing I wanted to leave here:

Dave Stark 187 (7,1%)
Querns 128 (4,8%)
Don ZOLA 98 (3,7%)
Teckos Pech 96 (3,6%)

Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda.


Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. P
Hey, I was against now I'm in favor!

Sorry we seem to be unable to agree on anything... Lol


Well to be honest, I'm not 100% against the concept. Maybe if it started out with a limit, say no more than 20 million SP can be injected and change the decreasing returns to fit this new limit.

See how that goes, and maybe adjust it as time goes on....

I'm not 100% against it.

Good God I really am John Kerry with all this nuance crap. P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

tainted demon
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#2669 - 2015-10-17 20:28:48 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Its been an eye opener today thats for sure.

For the life of me i cannot understand how some can think that buying a legacy character with all its foibles is in anyway like buying a pile of skill packets - create a clean slate - send said packets to new toon - instant say, tengu pilot - drop a derp a lose your lvl5 offensive/defensive tree - no prob nip back inject a couple of packs away you go again.

what a complete crock.


not to mention with THIS system an older character who wants to pay to max something out has to pay more money to do it because they somehow get less SP in return for the same cost
Dave Stark
#2670 - 2015-10-17 20:29:49 UTC
Morihei Akachi wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
… the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet.

One could argue, though, that that's a problem with level 2s etc. Surely there’s something a bit problematic about a situation in which new players are confronted with a suboptimal game experience and then offered an option to pay extra in order to avoid it. On one reading, that's providing freedom of choice; on another, though, it's just bad game design. I'd be inclined to go for the latter.


most of the skills you're training to slog through level 2s are core skills that impact pretty much every aspect of eve. support skills, fitting skills, navigation skills.

level 2 missions suck, but making them suck less won't magically make skills that are pretty much mandatory train automatically upon account creation. it's still a few weeks/months people will have to endure or bypass.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2671 - 2015-10-17 20:31:33 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Morihei Akachi wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
… the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet.

One could argue, though, that that's a problem with level 2s etc. Surely there’s something a bit problematic about a situation in which new players are confronted with a suboptimal game experience and then offered an option to pay extra in order to avoid it. On one reading, that's providing freedom of choice; on another, though, it's just bad game design. I'd be inclined to go for the latter.


most of the skills you're training to slog through level 2s are core skills that impact pretty much every aspect of eve. support skills, fitting skills, navigation skills.

level 2 missions suck, but making them suck less won't magically make skills that are pretty much mandatory train automatically upon account creation. it's still a few weeks/months people will have to endure or bypass.

..And you're welcome to confirm or refute how this is completely a negative design and plausibly the reason the game has yet to really escalate.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.

Jared Khanar
#2672 - 2015-10-17 20:31:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jared Khanar
Morihei Akachi wrote:
Surely there’s something a bit problematic about a situation in which new players are confronted with a suboptimal game experience and then offered an option to pay extra in order to avoid it. On one reading, that's providing freedom of choice; on another, though, it's just bad game design. I'd be inclined to go for the latter.


Welcome to the world of microtransactions. If it is good game design you won´t pay a dime to ... "ignore" it - thats how this works - expect more of both to come in eve. I know thats not the only "f2p" / "p2w" mechanic but it´s a major one :)


EDIT: hm - instead of changing eve into another game with different rules and payment methods ccp should simply have created ... another game !?!? At least i myself have registred and subbed a specific game with monthly subscription payment and all resulting consequences. if it´s not what i want to play anymore - why should i stay? Seems to me ccp doesn´t care or ignores it´s game and the community it was designed for that much, that they see no problem in redesigning this game into something else, change all fundamentals and reconfigure it, so it is welcoming other targetgroups. Sadly this will drive away or radically change the existing one :)

This change in the community is already noticeable and happening.

Economic Services

trading spacepixels

Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2673 - 2015-10-17 20:32:50 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
Your paying your sub for that and there are alot more things to keep you happy now as opposed to 9+ years ago, granted if you have been in game a certain length of time the best option is to max the queue and leave it for a month or so but its not costing you anything over your subs.

I'll admit, my English isn't good enough to parse whatever's being said here. The one piece that sticks out for me is:

"alot more things to keep you happy now"

If you want to argue that skipping the SP grind would cause players to leave because they're bored, the necessary implication is that EVE itself isn't fun. It has no "things to keep you happy".

That basically makes EVE the equivalent of SWTOR: Nice story while you're leveling, but un-sub as soon as you hit end game. Except SP doesn't even provide a nice story, so the real description you're arguing for is "Get annoyed waiting for months to do something you don't like."
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2674 - 2015-10-17 20:33:13 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Levi Belvar wrote:
Its been an eye opener today thats for sure.

For the life of me i cannot understand how some can think that buying a legacy character with all its foibles is in anyway like buying a pile of skill packets - create a clean slate - send said packets to new toon - instant say, tengu pilot - drop a derp a lose your lvl5 offensive/defensive tree - no prob nip back inject a couple of packs away you go again.

what a complete crock.
" legacy character with all its foibles" LOL!

I don't think the CB is quite what you think it is. Perhaps if you actually checked it out and discovered for yourself how totally wrong you are, it would help in your views.

Or maybe I'll just link you the first 10 clean slate focused characters I see to make it easier for you. Should have it covered on the first page.

Mr Epeen Cool


Your another that needs to learn to read, legacy character with all its foibles Vs a new toon ( clean slate ) seeing as ive sold close to 40 toons over the years im fully aware of how the bazaar works and eveboard to let the folks know what sort of toon theyre getting, i would prefer to loose the bazaar and get the chance to remap a characters skills.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#2675 - 2015-10-17 20:34:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessica Danikov
Transneural Skill Points need to have the originating player in the description.

Also disappointed that the Brain Overlay eXtractor didn't get much love, don't people want a brain in a BOX?
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#2676 - 2015-10-17 20:35:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Pahrdi
Querns wrote:
grevicious wrote:
is this the same way WoW went PAY TO WIN. game dead Cry

I'd choose a different example if I were you. WoW is certainly less trafficked than it was in its heyday, but it is FAR from dead.

WoW is dead. It is still walking. But it is dead.

As to the OP, terrible idea. So a no from me.

Remove standings and insurance.

Dave Stark
#2677 - 2015-10-17 20:36:13 UTC
Dror wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Morihei Akachi wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
… the entire point of buying SP is to skip running level 2s and other irrelevant content that only exists to distract people from the fact that they don't have the SP to do anything else more proficiently yet.

One could argue, though, that that's a problem with level 2s etc. Surely there’s something a bit problematic about a situation in which new players are confronted with a suboptimal game experience and then offered an option to pay extra in order to avoid it. On one reading, that's providing freedom of choice; on another, though, it's just bad game design. I'd be inclined to go for the latter.


most of the skills you're training to slog through level 2s are core skills that impact pretty much every aspect of eve. support skills, fitting skills, navigation skills.

level 2 missions suck, but making them suck less won't magically make skills that are pretty much mandatory train automatically upon account creation. it's still a few weeks/months people will have to endure or bypass.

..And you're welcome to confirm or refute how this is completely a negative design and plausibly the reason the game has yet to really escalate.


what? big words are fine, but at least put them in a coherent sentence.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2678 - 2015-10-17 20:37:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Dror wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Talsha Talamar wrote:
http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1

Just a thing I wanted to leave here:

Dave Stark 187 (7,1%)
Querns 128 (4,8%)
Don ZOLA 98 (3,7%)
Teckos Pech 96 (3,6%)

Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda.


Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. P

Why, and what's the alternative? Do you have any clue why the game seems an unattractive deal for fresh subs?

With this, they could actually play for progression.


One of the reasons I oppose this is that IMO, it will be something in favor of older players. Older players do not need a new advantage.

I'll use myself as an example:

1. I have 123 million SP on this character alone. All totaled across my alts probably more than 300 million SP.
2. I belong to a NS corp with lots of other older players who can help me directly and/or indirectly in game.
3. I belong to a NS alliance with lots of older and some newer players who can help me directly and/or indirectly.
4. We belong to one of the biggest coalitions in the game which can help me directly and/or indirectly.
5. I have been in game 8 years, I have done lots of things and know quite a bit about the mechanics of the game.
6. I have billions of ISK in my wallets and even more billions in assets.

Now on top of this you'll give me the ability to almost surely PLEX one account while still being able to use that account to earn even more ISK?

Compared to a new player what do they have?

1, 5, and 6 are flat out No for all three. 2,3 and 4 are maybes, but probably not at least for awhile.

This proposal will at best let a new player close the gap on 1 a bit. For a few select new players they might close the gap quite a bit, but most will close it by nearly trivial amounts.

I can use this new mechanic much more effectively than a new player, IMO. In fact, right now I plan on it. If it goes into effect soon enough, I'll get a third AFKtar out in the anomalies, I'll keep my PI empire and have one of my alts train AWU V in perpetuity and drain of the SP to PLEX that account.

Will that help new players? Maybe, but just not seeing it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#2679 - 2015-10-17 20:40:06 UTC
Mara Pahrdi wrote:

WoW is dead. It is still walking. But it is dead.


From my understanding, anything walking dead is pretty popular these days.

Mr Epeen Cool
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2680 - 2015-10-17 20:42:00 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dror wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Talsha Talamar wrote:
http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/450912-1

Just a thing I wanted to leave here:

Dave Stark 187 (7,1%)
Querns 128 (4,8%)
Don ZOLA 98 (3,7%)
Teckos Pech 96 (3,6%)

Some people are rather violently pushing their agenda.


Considering I'm like John Kerry, in that I was initially in favor, now against....might want to add some nuance to your analysis. P

Why, and what's the alternative? Do you have any clue why the game seems an unattractive deal for fresh subs?

With this, they could actually play for progression.


One of the reasons I oppose this is that IMO, it will be something in favor of older players. Older players do not need a new advantage.

I'll use myself as an example:

1. I have 123 million SP on this character alone. All totaled across my alts probably more than 300 million SP.
2. I belong to a NS corp with lots of other older players who can help me directly and/or indirectly in game.
3. I belong to a NS alliance with lots of older and some newer players who can help me directly and/or indirectly.
4. We belong to one of the biggest coalitions in the game which can help me directly and/or indirectly.
5. I have been in game 8 years, I have done lots of things and know quite a bit about the mechanics of the game.
6. I have billions of ISK in my wallets and even more billions in assets.

Now on top of this you'll give me the ability to almost surely PLEX on account while still being able to use that account to earn even more ISK?

Compared to a new player what do they have?

1, 5, and 6 are flat out No for all three. 2,3 and 4 are maybes, but probably not at least for awhile.

This proposal will at best let a new player close the gap on 1 a bit. For a few select new players they might close the gap quite a bit, but most will close it by nearly trivial amounts.

I can use this new mechanic much more effectively than a new player, IMO. In fact, right now I plan on it. If it goes into effect soon enough, I'll get a third AFKtar out in the anomalies, I'll keep my PI empire and have one of my alts train AWU V in perpetuity and drain of the SP to PLEX that account.

Will that help new players? Maybe, but just not seeing it.
Well, you could give a new player your excess SP for free.

Or, your coalition could... Blink

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!