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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Theo Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2381 - 2015-10-17 08:15:37 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
just in a less convoluted format
Dave, this little detail is actually HUGE...


Today to get ISK out of your subscription time you have to:

. Know about the character bazaar
. Learn how it works
. Learn how to make a decent, sellable character
. Post on the subforum, follow the replies
. Do the transfer correctly
. Make sure you follow all the rules
. Etc....
. EDIT: wait several weeks or more for the char to skill up a bit <-- another HUGE difference, the new system is 'instant SP-to-ISK'


Tomorrow you just need to:
. Buy an extractor in Jita
. Fill it
. Sell the packet in Jita


It's almost the difference between RMT-ing ISK and buying a PLEX in Jita, except of course that the char bazaar is legal thus a bit easier/less worrisome to use.


You missed the bit where you pay CCP cash to bypass the current system as the extractors will only be created by paying aur.
Dave Stark
#2382 - 2015-10-17 08:16:09 UTC
darkchild's corpse wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


start what?

you keep saying arguments were made yet none of them have been reproduced regardless of my asking for them.

thats the thing... read them where they were made in the first place... trolllololo


if there were any, they'd have been used to counter my points by now. i'm not in the habit of chasing fairy tales.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2383 - 2015-10-17 08:19:01 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
No worries, I am not referring to that "history" post but to posts with numerous arguments and expectations like 50 and 70 pages ago. Until someone counters them with some reasonable explanation I will stand by the fact that this is easily the worst decision ever since it will change fundamentals of the game for unknown expectations without helping more than minor percent of the players.
Did you consider the fact that every single subscribed account will be able to get ISK for any and all not needed SP? And that SP accumulates constantly?

That means that potentially 100% of EVE players can grind less for ISK (and/or PLEX), provided obviously that on the other side there are ISK- (and/or cash-) rich players willing to buy SP.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#2384 - 2015-10-17 08:19:09 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
For people quitting in protest I remind them that Operation Magic School Bus does accept donations to help out the new players. Yes, this is a 'can I haz' post but it is one where the material will be put to good use, not just lining a wallet or hanger. Contract to me if you wish to donate.

m


People threaten to rage over everything these days. I don't see a reason to over this devblog as it is put out as a proposal to gather feedback and start a dialogue. People should always welcome such things.

I can understand some people's frustrations though as they associate every word that comes out from any employee of CCP as the company's policy. I'm not privy to their inner workings but I suspect they have many independent offices, teams and devs. Many of them seem to be misaligned and have different ideas about EVE.

If I thought that CCP as a compnay was seriously pushing for this idea I would be very worried. Everyone has their limit and there are some lines that should not be crossed.


What line are they crossing here that hasn't already been crossed?


They've gotten away with non-vanity RMT for a while now but it has been in limited and insignificant form. I'm not counting PLEX. This is RMT in a major game changing way. It goes against everything that this game is built on. I'm not going to repeat myself so just read here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6100830#post6100830

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Dave Stark
#2385 - 2015-10-17 08:19:51 UTC
Don ZOLA wrote:
Until someone counters them with some reasonable explanation I will stand by the fact that this is easily the worst decision ever since it will change fundamentals of the game for unknown expectations without helping more than minor percent of the players.


this is one for when you get back then, Don.

let's start at the beginning.

What fundamentals are being changed?

buying/selling SP? no. we're already doing that with the character bazaar.
bypassing the skill training system? no. we're already doing that with the charcter bazaar.
"now we can get characters with 400m sp" - so what problem does that cause?
darkchild's corpse
Rens Nursing Home
#2386 - 2015-10-17 08:20:37 UTC
thats exactly like this other guy...
"why is it a bad idea?"
"it was already explained, read it"
"no, i'm too lazy, your point is invalid"

yeah... thats exactly how it works... *facepalm*

Kinda suits the SP trading discussion (lyrics in description)
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2387 - 2015-10-17 08:21:17 UTC
Theo Sotken wrote:
You missed the bit where you pay CCP cash to bypass the current system as the extractors will only be created by paying aur.
Yes, CCP certainly gets extra cash, actually I ranted about this a few dozen pages ago. Lol

But you'll be able to buy extractors for ISK, then sell packets for a higher amount of ISK (exact numbers are anyone's guess atm).

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#2388 - 2015-10-17 08:24:20 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
I'm sure someone probably already mentioned this but this is nothing short of RMT to skill up.

Basically, you get as many alts as your wallet allows. You start training them and every 5mil SP you strip their SP and inject into your main. You can basically have alt farms to win. With character bazaar or just training alts, you can gain an advantage but they're still stuck in their respective speeds, roles and skills. This is LITERALLY paying $ to accelerate skill training with no limit to it. The only limit is how much you're willing to spend to accelerate your skill training.


so, your issue is what exactly? that it's a paid service, or you can have as much sp as you want? what exactly is the grip here?

we know how the system works, there's a whole devblog telling us that.


I thought that part was obviously clear. If it's not to you then you probably will not understand.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
darkchild's corpse
Rens Nursing Home
#2389 - 2015-10-17 08:27:20 UTC
the last 50 pages are just dave trolling and ppl feeding him. but if that helps to make CCP aware that this is a very sensible topic... feed him \o/

Kinda suits the SP trading discussion (lyrics in description)
Dave Stark
#2390 - 2015-10-17 08:27:56 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
I'm sure someone probably already mentioned this but this is nothing short of RMT to skill up.

Basically, you get as many alts as your wallet allows. You start training them and every 5mil SP you strip their SP and inject into your main. You can basically have alt farms to win. With character bazaar or just training alts, you can gain an advantage but they're still stuck in their respective speeds, roles and skills. This is LITERALLY paying $ to accelerate skill training with no limit to it. The only limit is how much you're willing to spend to accelerate your skill training.


so, your issue is what exactly? that it's a paid service, or you can have as much sp as you want? what exactly is the grip here?

we know how the system works, there's a whole devblog telling us that.


I thought that part was obviously clear. If it's not to you then you probably will not understand.


oh look, a condescending insult rather than a legitimate point.

all you've done is whine that people can use the system - you've yet to point out why using this new system is an issue,
Laodell
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#2391 - 2015-10-17 08:28:09 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
i would honestly rather upset people with 200m sp than see the game full of dreadful adverts.

there's a reason pretty much all of us install ad blockers on our browsers.



All other issues not withstanding I am actually with this guy. It's bad enough windows 1984 ( Windows 10 ) is offering ads on the start menu. I would hurl if I saw them in Eve Online also.
Dave Stark
#2392 - 2015-10-17 08:30:27 UTC
darkchild's corpse wrote:
the last 50 pages are just dave trolling and ppl feeding him. but if that helps to make CCP aware that this is a very sensible topic... feed him \o/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO2cHJmDkBg
BroodAlpha
Perkone
Caldari State
#2393 - 2015-10-17 08:36:36 UTC  |  Edited by: BroodAlpha
Hello guys,

I'm going to go ahead and say I really dislike the premise of this change and with the diminishing returns it feels like CCP is doing this to make the lives of newbeans easier (which is cool), but this ostracizes the entire older player community. As a director of a newbean corp I would normally be in favor of a change like this but I am not.

I have been playing for a year and a half and I would not have the toons that I have right now, and the capital I earned from the Bazaar would be negligible if these proposed changes were live when I started.

1) SP on the Bazaar holds value because characters are uniquely trained. With these skillpoint sucker doo-hiccies no character is unique any more because people can just remap whatever.

2) The value of high SP characters drops through the floor due to the diminishing returns on the extractors.

3) It puts a monetary value on SP in certain ranges, meaning that players no longer decide the value of toons which was half the fun of the bazaar.

4) It removes the most stable market in the game, SP. SP was stable because you couldn't mess with it. With these proposed changes, you can.

To put this into terms for you guys I have made a lot of ISK from character sales on the Bazaar using this strategy:

1) Look for a relatively well trained toon that needs a bit of fixing up, but not too much.

2) Acquire toon for a good SP/ISK ratio (3m SP per Billion ISK)

3) Train holes in toon

4) Flip for profit

Is this possible with the new system? Not really, because rich toffs can just manipulate characters so they're perfect, meaning that unless you pump money into making sure that no SP is wasted, the value of toons drops through the floor.

One of my recent transactions netted me 15b ISK profit for doing 2 months training. This is because I put a bunch of time into learning the market, toon values and learning what skills EVE players put value in. There's also no scamming on the Bazaar so it's the safest place to invest your ISK.

I don't think anyone expected CCP to suggest messing with skill points... After this change, I will no longer be using the Bazaar.

BroodAlpha is trained almost perfectly outside of the Mining V and Gas Cloud Mining V. Do I want to be able to reallocate those SP? Sure it'd be cool, but it's NOT worth changing the entire system for and it devalues all my other toons. I task anyone to go to the Bazaar right now and find me a better trained 64m SP allround subcap toon.

tl;dr

Worst idea I've heard of since Jump Fatigue being applied to jump bridges (Remember the change was supposed to nerf capital projection, not the ability of sovholding alliances to move their subcap fleets around).
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2394 - 2015-10-17 08:38:14 UTC
Oh, by the way, I suspect this would totally nuke the character bazaar.

Today, if you spend 6 months training a char to sell, I assume you'll want at least 6 PLEX for it, plus 2 PLEX transfer fees etc.

That's because, from the seller's perspective, the PLEX spent went ENTIRELY into Skill Points.


But that's not true. 1 PLEX buys you 2 things at a time:

1) yes, a month's worth of SP

2) also, incidentally, a month's worth of game time


With the new system, anyone can sell SP from their ACTIVE accounts. That is, from the accounts that they are already using, and subbing/PLEXing, to play with.

Now, if you spend a PLEX on an active account, how much of that PLEX do you feel is giving you game time and how much gives you SP???

In other words, what fraction of a PLEX would you consider a 'fair market price' for a month's worth of SP?


It's anybody's guess, but the answer is certainly less than 100%, or a full PLEX...


Interesting times ahead...

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Laodell
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#2395 - 2015-10-17 08:39:00 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Laodell wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Maraner wrote:
Maybe they should just put up a vote on it?



i'd rather they put up a legitimate reason why - as yet none of them apart from steve has. and even steve's reason is terrible.

buying sp won't make players think "i need to spend more money" than the current system already does, where the only way to close the sp gap between themselves and established players is to buy a new character from the bazaar.



I wonder what advantage Stark see's so clearly for himself that he would be pushing this so vehemently for so many 118 pages Dave Stark seems to be the village loud mouth that screams at everyone that whatever he thinks is a good idea has to be done.


It's not a personal attack so much as pointing out his arguments should have not one whit more validity just because he's been repeating them over and over.


none what so ever. i've just yet to see, after 118 pages an argument for why this shouldn't be included other than "i don't like it".

nobody has pointed out a single reason why this is bad other than "i don't like it" or pretending pre-existing issues will suddenly exist.

we've always purchased and sold sp, new players have always felt obligated to buy characters to bypass tedious months of training support skills etc whether that be by grinding isk really slowly in their low sp pilots or opening their wallet.

in the absence of any reasons why this is bad - why wouldn't we add this?

if i were CCP and the CSM all sat there and went "i don't like it" but none of them actually put forward a reason why it's bad - i'd laugh at them and release the devblog too.




There you go again.

If that's all you see then you have clearly failed at English comprehension, or you are deliberately pretending to be ignorant of the 118 pages of vary valid points made by people saying " I don't like this and here's my argument".

There's at least a good solid full day or 2 days worth of arguments against this with approval from people that have no frame of reference to understand our knowledge of game mechanics after TEN YEARS or MORE playing the game

We understand how it's been working Dude. We know, we get it. We have been around in both Eve Online and the Real World long enough to be capable of understanding how this mistake will proceed.

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2396 - 2015-10-17 08:43:32 UTC
BroodAlpha wrote:
After this change, I will no longer be using the Bazaar.
My take:

1) the bazaar will become completely obsolete for low SP chars (up to 50M SP)

2) nothing will change for high SP chars (over 50M SP), because you will not be able to efficiently create them with the new skill packets

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Laodell
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#2397 - 2015-10-17 08:44:05 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
darkchild's corpse wrote:
the last 50 pages are just dave trolling and ppl feeding him. but if that helps to make CCP aware that this is a very sensible topic... feed him \o/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO2cHJmDkBg



Effing Expert Troll he is. You have to give him points for linking an appropriately great song. :)
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#2398 - 2015-10-17 08:46:17 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
I'm sure someone probably already mentioned this but this is nothing short of RMT to skill up.

Basically, you get as many alts as your wallet allows. You start training them and every 5mil SP you strip their SP and inject into your main. You can basically have alt farms to win. With character bazaar or just training alts, you can gain an advantage but they're still stuck in their respective speeds, roles and skills. This is LITERALLY paying $ to accelerate skill training with no limit to it. The only limit is how much you're willing to spend to accelerate your skill training.


so, your issue is what exactly? that it's a paid service, or you can have as much sp as you want? what exactly is the grip here?

we know how the system works, there's a whole devblog telling us that.


I thought that part was obviously clear. If it's not to you then you probably will not understand.


oh look, a condescending insult rather than a legitimate point.

all you've done is whine that people can use the system - you've yet to point out why using this new system is an issue,


If you were really interested you would read the feedback in this thread and see for yourself. If for some reason you want specifically MINE then here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6100830#post6100830

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Dave Stark
#2399 - 2015-10-17 08:57:30 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
I'm sure someone probably already mentioned this but this is nothing short of RMT to skill up.

Basically, you get as many alts as your wallet allows. You start training them and every 5mil SP you strip their SP and inject into your main. You can basically have alt farms to win. With character bazaar or just training alts, you can gain an advantage but they're still stuck in their respective speeds, roles and skills. This is LITERALLY paying $ to accelerate skill training with no limit to it. The only limit is how much you're willing to spend to accelerate your skill training.


so, your issue is what exactly? that it's a paid service, or you can have as much sp as you want? what exactly is the grip here?

we know how the system works, there's a whole devblog telling us that.


I thought that part was obviously clear. If it's not to you then you probably will not understand.


oh look, a condescending insult rather than a legitimate point.

all you've done is whine that people can use the system - you've yet to point out why using this new system is an issue,


If you were really interested you would read the feedback in this thread and see for yourself. If for some reason you want specifically MINE then here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6100830#post6100830


so you think the numbers are way off, and object to it being a paid service because it's all automated.

then what numbers should be used?
Dave Stark
#2400 - 2015-10-17 08:58:18 UTC
Laodell wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
darkchild's corpse wrote:
the last 50 pages are just dave trolling and ppl feeding him. but if that helps to make CCP aware that this is a very sensible topic... feed him \o/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO2cHJmDkBg



Effing Expert Troll he is. You have to give him points for linking an appropriately great song. :)


expert troll?

sweet summer child...