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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

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Dave Stark
#2061 - 2015-10-16 18:44:52 UTC
Amateratsu wrote:
This is utterly the worst thing you could possibly do to the game.

This change will completely obsolete the skill training system.
This change will completely obsolete the attribute system
This change will completely obsolete the remap system

There is enough isk in game to max out 10's of thousands of characters with every single skill at level 5 (450 million+ sp)

It's taken me over 10 years to get my main character to 207 million sp, now comes along joe blogs who creates a brand new character and then buys enough sp to max out that brand new character with 450 million sp in a day. completely invalidating the years we've spent training our characters in real time.

This change will completely obsolete the character bazarr. Why? buy a new character, when you can simply create a new character to your exact liking and then spec him out with all the skills he'll ever need. No Training Required!!!

Why spend years training skills when you can now buy whatever skills you require for real or in game money.

A 90% loss of sp gained for older characters is irrelevant, they will just buy as many sp packets as they need to get the instant sp they want.

There will be nothing left to strife for in game, as you can buy everything you want, which means the game will quickly get boring.

This change will be the death of Eve GAME OVER!!!.

Well it was fun while it lasted, if this change go's through, I'm outta here.


how will it obsolete the training system? without the training system where are you going to get the SP to buy/sell? especially when this new system deletes up to 90% of the SP extracted and sold.
BlackWilk
Cloaked Goof
Goonswarm Federation
#2062 - 2015-10-16 18:45:03 UTC
Maekchu wrote:
BlackWilk wrote:

- I have always loved eve over other MMO's because of the lack of pay2win aspect

What?

PLEX is literally a P2W mechanic. It is just one of the more tolerable ones, like XP boosting, which the proposed mechanic would be.

EvE has always been P2W, when you can PLEX and legitimately buy characters. And honestly, it is really not that bad, when EvE has a mechanic that forces you to wait several months in order to get into something specific. I don't mind other people getting boosted, since it does not really affect my gameplay.

The P2W, that I hope CCP will never get into. Is selling OP modules and ships for real cash. That is true P2W and that is something that would break the game.


Paying real cash for OP ships and modules is already what exists. Pay real cash for plex. Sell plex for isk. Use isk to pay for what you want.

The reason I feel this is tolerable is just because you have the money to buy a Barghest doesnt mean you have the skills to effectively fly it.

Also paying for SP is not the same as paying for an xp boost. In those games you have to grind for xp. So you pay for an xp boost to get a little extra and take less time. Paying for SP would be the equivalent of paying to instantly be a certain level. (yes i know blizzard does this with WoW. there are many reasons i dont play wow and that is one of them.)
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2063 - 2015-10-16 18:46:14 UTC

Jenn aSide wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:


How do the consequences of skill training choices translate into creating interesting gameplay? Why is gameplay better because I picked a bunch of mining skills and instead would like to fly some PVP ships?



For the same reason you lose your ship in EVE and don't have it magically respawn. Because EVE is a game of consequences, you chose to skill mining, that means you wait to pvp unless you spend 2 plex + the character cost in the Bazaar (an exception CCP has made because of the reality that some people will sell characters no matter what).

EVE is a certain kind of game. It should stay that way and turning a necessary evil (character trading) into a full blown unbalanced micro transaction is going the wrong way.

CCP could do lots of things to strengthen the Character Bazaar that doesn't go so overboard.


Yes "wait to pvp" is how things have always been. But you didn't answer the question. Why do you think waiting is interesting gameplay? I think all of the waiting mechanisms in the game.. GCC.. Jump Fatigue.. are the opposite of interesting gameplay. In fact, these are reasons why people choose to log off (for the duration of the wait) and go do other things.

Having to wait to PVP in a ship is not equivalent to getting free ships after you get destroyed. Skill allocation choices are not the same as choices you make in space. This is a game about choices in space. Why do you think skill allocation choices are a meaningful part of the game, apart from 'this is how it's always been'.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Clancy Davis
30plus LLC
Brave Collective
#2064 - 2015-10-16 18:48:29 UTC
Why all the confusing mechanics? Why not just make it so you can have multiple PLEXed training queue on an a character? Or annual "skill remaps"? "[B]e creative. Instead of making sandwiches with bread, use Pop Tarts. Instead of chewing gum, chew bacon."
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2065 - 2015-10-16 18:49:16 UTC

And let's be honest. Nobody (except for me) actually chose to have mining skills. The tutorial made them think it's a good idea and 3 months later they want to try the 'real game'. How does holding those people to these choices make for interesting gameplay?

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Sacred Klepton
Chaos Army
#2066 - 2015-10-16 18:49:53 UTC
What an absolutely horrible idea. Cant believe you're even thinking of doing it.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2067 - 2015-10-16 18:50:43 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:


How do the consequences of skill training choices translate into creating interesting gameplay? Why is gameplay better because I picked a bunch of mining skills and instead would like to fly some PVP ships?



For the same reason you lose your ship in EVE and don't have it magically respawn. Because EVE is a game of consequences, you chose to skill mining, that means you wait to pvp unless you spend 2 plex + the character cost in the Bazaar (an exception CCP has made because of the reality that some people will sell characters no matter what).

EVE is a certain kind of game. It should stay that way and turning a necessary evil (character trading) into a full blown unbalanced micro transaction is going the wrong way.

CCP could do lots of things to strengthen the Character Bazaar that doesn't go so overboard.


yeah but you can choose to also sell that character, and buy one without mining skills.... which is basically the same as just selling your mining skills in the proposed idea.

there's really this new system does that the old system doesn't... except the new system cuts out a bunch of unnecessary steps.

You mean the steps that make the thing ok? Yea, that's exactly what it cuts out, which is what makes it a bad idea. The CB is balanced by it's deficits (ie needing a free character slot and the rest).

I'll say it again, when you have something that is a necessary evil (such as the CB, which only exists because some people will sell characters anyway, same as the relationship between RMT and plex), you live with it, maybe try to streamline it a little.

What you don't do is make it into a REAL evil , especially for the sake of revenue generation. And especially when CCP promised to not do things like this after monoclegate. CCP can fix the character bazaar without resorting to un-EVE like SP microtransactions (likewise CCP can fix EVE without resorting to gold ammo).
Josef Djugashvilis
#2068 - 2015-10-16 18:50:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
This whole 'having to wait to do stuff' seems to be the core of the rationale for buying and selling skill points.

Logically, therefore, the answer is to do away with skill points and let everyone have the ability to do everything from day one.

PS, I never liked the Character Bazaar or PLEX. They have always seemed to me to circumvent the ethos of the game.

This is not a signature.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#2069 - 2015-10-16 18:53:20 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Moac Tor wrote:
It is not just a philosophical objection that the players have, the whole concept of eve has always been based around actions having consequences. That is what makes the gameplay interesting and stand out from other more generic MMORPGs. That is why I was asking why are you playing Eve.

Please explain to me why you think consequences for skill choices makes for interesting gameplay.

To someone who doesn't understand the concept it would take a long time to explain and you probably would still fail to understand and so it would be a waste of my time. If you really want to know though then have a look at a game like Dark Souls and see why that has been so successful and gathered a huge following.

Sure I would completely accept that a lot of people don't like this type of game though, but then what you need to keep in mind is that eve was always meant to have harsh consequences, and those who started playing 12 years ago and have kept the game running with their subs through all these years had signed up to a game in which every choice has a consequence.

There are plenty more games which will cater for the more casual so I don't understand why people would cling to a game which is clearly not suited for themselves and try and change it instead of finding one of the many games that would fit them perfectly.

Keep in mind though that this idea doesn't just fail due to the fact that it removes consequences though, there are many more reasons which have been detailed already in the thread.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#2070 - 2015-10-16 18:53:44 UTC
BlackWilk wrote:
Maekchu wrote:
BlackWilk wrote:

- I have always loved eve over other MMO's because of the lack of pay2win aspect

What?

PLEX is literally a P2W mechanic. It is just one of the more tolerable ones, like XP boosting, which the proposed mechanic would be.

EvE has always been P2W, when you can PLEX and legitimately buy characters. And honestly, it is really not that bad, when EvE has a mechanic that forces you to wait several months in order to get into something specific. I don't mind other people getting boosted, since it does not really affect my gameplay.

The P2W, that I hope CCP will never get into. Is selling OP modules and ships for real cash. That is true P2W and that is something that would break the game.


Paying real cash for OP ships and modules is already what exists. Pay real cash for plex. Sell plex for isk. Use isk to pay for what you want.

The reason I feel this is tolerable is just because you have the money to buy a Barghest doesnt mean you have the skills to effectively fly it.

Also paying for SP is not the same as paying for an xp boost. In those games you have to grind for xp. So you pay for an xp boost to get a little extra and take less time. Paying for SP would be the equivalent of paying to instantly be a certain level. (yes i know blizzard does this with WoW. there are many reasons i dont play wow and that is one of them.)

Yyyyy... you are only agreeing with my post.

I only wrote the reply, since you stated that you have always loved EvE cause of its lack of P2W elements. I respond with arguing that PLEX is a P2W element. You agree with my statement...

So what is it then? Do you love EvE cause of its lack of P2W elements, that somehow are there anyway? So do you in reality, not really love EvE?
Dave Stark
#2071 - 2015-10-16 18:53:47 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
You mean the steps that make the thing ok? Yea, that's exactly what it cuts out, which is what makes it a bad idea. The CB is balanced by it's deficits (ie needing a free character slot and the rest).

I'll say it again, when you have something that is a necessary evil (such as the CB, which only exists because some people will sell characters anyway, same as the relationship between RMT and plex), you live with it, maybe try to streamline it a little.

What you don't do is make it into a REAL evil , especially for the sake of revenue generation. And especially when CCP promised to not do things like this after monoclegate. CCP can fix the character bazaar without resorting to un-EVE like SP microtransactions (likewise CCP can fix EVE without resorting to gold ammo).


so because it's a convoluted and awkward mechanic that's fine?

quick, fire karkur and punkturis then since they're actively removing convoluted and awkward mechanics which are clearly what makes eve great.

in both situations you end up with a character that has lost its mining skills. the result is the same. are you really telling me that's only ok because you went through a process that nearly made you want to tear your hair out because it's terrible?

if your only negative about this system is "it makes things easier" then clearly it's not that bad.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2072 - 2015-10-16 18:56:56 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:


Yes "wait to pvp" is how things have always been. But you didn't answer the question. Why do you think waiting is interesting gameplay?


Because it gives value to the gameplay when the wait is over. It makes the game play MEAN something.

Quote:

I think all of the waiting mechanisms in the game.. GCC.. Jump Fatigue.. are the opposite of interesting gameplay. In fact, these are reasons why people choose to log off (for the duration of the wait) and go do other things.


And that's fine, EVE isn't for everyone. If one is too un-creative to figure out what to do in game while they wait for something, that means they should learn patience, it doesn't mean "CCP, change the game now".

Quote:

Having to wait to PVP in a ship is not equivalent to getting free ships after you get destroyed. Skill allocation choices are not the same as choices you make in space. This is a game about choices in space. Why do you think skill allocation choices are a meaningful part of the game, apart from 'this is how it's always been'.



This is incorrect. It's not just about choices made in space. In the same way EVERY fight in EVE is decided while a player is docked, career progression ( a core part of the game) is decided at the skill que (again, with the one exception CCP has made, the Character Bazaar, which is in and of itself a kind of game.

I don't think you appreciate what this idea represents, or why many of us are against it. Do you think all of us are stupid? Do you think we don't want this game to be fun, or succeed?
Josef Djugashvilis
#2073 - 2015-10-16 18:58:34 UTC
Lordy, I have 'liked' a Jenn aSide post - 2067.

Either Eve is dying, or I am ;)

This is not a signature.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#2074 - 2015-10-16 18:58:51 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Don't mistake my posts as 'for' or 'against'.

When you decide to rp the other side of the debate I'll mark you off as 'neutral'. Smile

Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Logically, therefore, the answer is to do away with skill points and let everyone have the ability to do everything from day one.

I can only view this devblog as an exercise in shifting the Overton window.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2075 - 2015-10-16 19:00:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Dave Stark wrote:

if your only negative about this system is "it makes things easier" then clearly it's not that bad.


Get it right. It makes "something that under ideal conditions would not exist in the 1st place even easier". That is the point, it's stupid to expand something that should not exist in the 1st place. Even CCP has said that the Character Bazaar exists to prevent a bad activity.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2076 - 2015-10-16 19:01:19 UTC

Moac Tor wrote:
To someone who doesn't understand the concept it would take a long time to explain and you probably would still fail to understand and so it would be a waste of my time. If you really want to know though then have a look at a game like Dark Souls and see why that has been so successful and gathered a huge following.

So instead of posting an argument, you're flashing your EVE subscription credentials?

That's a wonderful response.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Dave Stark
#2077 - 2015-10-16 19:02:12 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

if your only negative about this system is "it makes things easier" then clearly it's not that bad.


Get it right. It makes "something that under ideal conditions would not exist in the 1st place even easier". That is the point, it's stupid to expand something that should exist in the 1st place. Even CCP has said that the Character Bazaar exists to prevent a bad activity.


so because it shouldn't exist it has to be as ****** as possible? ... which just encourages that it exists to prevent.

really?
BlackWilk
Cloaked Goof
Goonswarm Federation
#2078 - 2015-10-16 19:02:30 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

And let's be honest. Nobody (except for me) actually chose to have mining skills. The tutorial made them think it's a good idea and 3 months later they want to try the 'real game'. How does holding those people to these choices make for interesting gameplay?



some people make the choice :P. ive done pvp for years and never done much grinding thanks to a friend who loved to buy plex and share the goodness with me. now that thats over ive been looking into actually making isk. i chose my mining skills. i didnt even train the ones the tutorial asked for initially :P.
BlackWilk
Cloaked Goof
Goonswarm Federation
#2079 - 2015-10-16 19:04:37 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
This whole 'having to wait to do stuff' seems to be the core of the rationale for buying and selling skill points.

Logically, therefore, the answer is to do away with skill points and let everyone have the ability to do everything from day one.

PS, I never liked the Character Bazaar or PLEX. They have always seemed to me to circumvent the ethos of the game.


honestly, im not against this idea :P. it would make for a very interesting game if everyone could fly everything. though i feel that to make a game like that more fair we would need to remove the ability to buy plex with cash and get isk for it. all isk should therefore come from grinding :P.
Shuckstar
Blue Dreams Plus
#2080 - 2015-10-16 19:04:40 UTC
-1 do not implement this **** please.

CCP Greyscale wrote:"OK, I've read every post up to page 200, and we're getting to a point in this thread where there's not a lot of new concerns or suggestions being brought up. There will be future threads (and future blogs) as we tune details, but for now I want to thank you for all of your constructive input, and wish you a good weekend :)"