These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Nerf Webs
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Neutral Haulermeister
The Corporate Raiders
Friends with Liabilities
#61 - 2015-10-12 00:52:16 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
You mean to tell me that a guy needs help fighting a frigate, so his support brings something else that can't track the frigate either? Great Idea.

Battleships were forced into obsolescence after WWII because they were big and expensive and they were often sunk by smaller vessels (primarily Destroyers) and fighter-bombers that would be "out-track" their guns and deliver torpedoes and other explosives. I really think that Battleships should be things that are supported by things like they were realistically.

by this line of thinking carriers should be the main ship that is used if we wish to look a RL only.

Accepts your stuff if you're quitting EVE, Please mail and contract me your stuff.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#62 - 2015-10-12 04:39:37 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Offering clarity as to "Why" specifically; the concept of flatly slowing ships down is sort of "unnatural". There is no precedent for this kind of mechanic in any similar game. It serves to flatly decrease the range of movement options that the opponent has while under it effect. While that does have its explicitly intended purpose, it becomes a sort of staple in much of brawling in general and reduces many of brawling engagements to straight up slugfests where mobility is essentially negated.



You must not have rolled melee dps or been up against those that used it properly. Changing of speed is a common melee dps cast/call/action/etc. Either they slow you down or they get a speed boost to be faster.

Eve is an space MMO rpg. This carried over. It can't have the term melee dps since its eve (want to bust balls use the many forms of healz or healer to an eve purist when talking about reps/logi, this bait always works), but same principals apply to tackle, fast response dps, etc. end result the same....you are moving as if in molasses in January and they are buzzing around really fast.


Want to get more modern.....here is how I "webbed" in WoT. I'd shoot out tracks. Only got 1 the repair kit. Use it up on that...well me or someone else would track you again. Game kind of enforced this. My gun sans gold ammo not doing a damn thing otherwise I will cripple your tracks all day long since its the only thing I could hit worth a damn. Sometimes double tracking for the added fun. Turnabout is fair play....this done to me quite often as well.


Don't like webs know or predict what may run them and avoid them. If a brawler...well that running them is cheesy is your pov. Others its not.


The bs bringing support bit...sometimes your support is busy if actually brought along. Nice to have the self help there in that case.


Shooting out treads on a tank is something you actively do webbing just happens, melee range in other games can be effectively exited by moving out of melee range, by running other than dota's intrinsic slowing elements confined to specific characters this does not occur anywhere else in this fashion.



I just chucked a fireball at an enemy in eso and guess what I slowed that enemy by 40% for a set time plus every enemy within a AoE around the initial target by the same amount also does damage and applies a dot. Max range of this ability is 28m which in not melee range (5m is melee range).
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#63 - 2015-10-12 04:59:31 UTC
STO has tractor beams for slowing down a target, SWG had all kinds of traps, snares and leg shot abilities to slow down a target or stop them completely, archage, everquest, wow, guild wars... ...infact every single MMO has a variation of webs.
Arla Sarain
#64 - 2015-10-12 05:50:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
baltec1 wrote:
STO has tractor beams for slowing down a target, SWG had all kinds of traps, snares and leg shot abilities to slow down a target or stop them completely, archage, everquest, wow, guild wars... ...infact every single MMO has a variation of webs.

They do, but majority of MMOs cause your character to stop moving when you attack. This reduces the range covered in a sustained fight significantly, "webs" or not.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2015-10-12 07:21:04 UTC
Baltec is right, this would also harm, probably break, blap dreads and break every missile ship that wasn't using small missiles.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#66 - 2015-10-12 08:40:22 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
STO has tractor beams for slowing down a target, SWG had all kinds of traps, snares and leg shot abilities to slow down a target or stop them completely, archage, everquest, wow, guild wars... ...infact every single MMO has a variation of webs.

They do, but majority of MMOs cause your character to stop moving when you attack. This reduces the range covered in a sustained fight significantly, "webs" or not.


Some do not all. neverwinter classes can attack on the fly so can eso.
they also have straight out stuns. which is a 100% web.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#67 - 2015-10-14 07:56:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Azazel The Misanthrope
Now that I have calmed down I have come back.

My complaint isn't that they are too powerful; they really just aren't fun for either party involved, and that there has to be any better way for a mechanic like that to be implemented so that it isn't so mechanical and "un-interactive".

I can understand the need for battleship to be able to defend themselves versus small ships, but I'd prefer to see huge universal buffs to tracking and explosion velcoity, high dps mid-slot point defense weapons, or even large damage reductions of small caliber weapons to large hulls, than I would that webs continue to exist. They just aren't fun. Anything that was more interactive or implied some sort of tactic to be employed instead of just encouraging people to kite or creating an artificial commitment range would be more fun. I would like to see dogfights and application battles, not stationary slug-fests.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#68 - 2015-10-14 07:59:52 UTC
A lot of the aforementioned stuns and web equivalents are effects that are on a brief timer or are effects that need to be actively applied. Webs are active once a targets gets into range, and stay active until they get out or until the target was dead.

Universal 90% or even 99% webs would be chooler if they were for a limited time and on a cooldown.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#69 - 2015-10-14 13:24:51 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
A lot of the aforementioned stuns and web equivalents are effects that are on a brief timer or are effects that need to be actively applied. Webs are active once a targets gets into range, and stay active until they get out or until the target was dead.

Universal 90% or even 99% webs would be chooler if they were for a limited time and on a cooldown.



which for the slow can be applied over and over as long as there is mana/stamina to cast the spell just like in eve if the ship webbing doesn't have cap to run the web it shuts off.


And no to 99% on a cooldown do you know how broken that is? its a death sentence to any ship that relies on speed tank to be able to not die.
Arla Sarain
#70 - 2015-10-14 13:39:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Lady Rift wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
A lot of the aforementioned stuns and web equivalents are effects that are on a brief timer or are effects that need to be actively applied. Webs are active once a targets gets into range, and stay active until they get out or until the target was dead.

Universal 90% or even 99% webs would be chooler if they were for a limited time and on a cooldown.



which for the slow can be applied over and over as long as there is mana/stamina to cast the spell just like in eve if the ship webbing doesn't have cap to run the web it shuts off.


And no to 99% on a cooldown do you know how broken that is? its a death sentence to any ship that relies on speed tank to be able to not die.

I think there is no point in drawing parallels from EVE to other MMOs. There are several critical disparities, if it's not the movement lock when attacking then it's the ability to use the environment, several ways to close gaps between melee and kiting roles, etc.

@ hard stop web - I think that's the point... You can't really outmaneuver majority of dedicated kiting ships, and the only error lies in them being greedy. Given patience, kiting ships are nigh invulnerable outside of you bringing a pal with dedicated 80km webs, ewar, and so on, and even then, the advantage still lies with the kiter who can disengage at his leisure. EVEN YET in the event of full web+point, there is the risk of the assailant dying in transit. The capacity for kiting is limited by patience and piloting experience, whilst the capacity for tanking is limited by buffer size and the ability to replenish it (capacitor, charges, etc). The latter is obviously finite, the former scales with player patience and endurance.

Azazel still does have a point IMO - there is a constant complaint/statement that brawling is daft and bland in EVE. Mostly because sig tanking between ships of the same size is almost nonexistent, which means close range fights favour those ships that can outlast the DPS exchange.

But it's also a double sided sword - the risk is that any changes you make can again buff kiters. If you catch a kiter now its pretty much dead. If you reduce the effectiveness of webs and tamper with tracking, you just make the persons who caught the kiter job more difficult.

The recently announced MJD destros are likely the solution that's needed.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#71 - 2015-10-14 14:00:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Now that I have calmed down I have come back.

My complaint isn't that they are too powerful; they really just aren't fun for either party involved, and that there has to be any better way for a mechanic like that to be implemented so that it isn't so mechanical and "un-interactive".

I can understand the need for battleship to be able to defend themselves versus small ships, but I'd prefer to see huge universal buffs to tracking and explosion velcoity, high dps mid-slot point defense weapons, or even large damage reductions of small caliber weapons to large hulls, than I would that webs continue to exist. They just aren't fun. Anything that was more interactive or implied some sort of tactic to be employed instead of just encouraging people to kite or creating an artificial commitment range would be more fun. I would like to see dogfights and application battles, not stationary slug-fests.



They are fun for me. I giggle like a school girl when I web a large target w/ my daredevil. I know he's spamming the approach gate and feeling helpless as he crawls toward it.... will he make it.... no.... the damage is too much..... oh wait! he will make it.... oh..... more webs. Doomed at 3 m/s and just 500 meters to jump range.

Webs are the last bastion of manhood in the game. With Fozziecide turning most ships in the game into riskaversepussifiedkitingmobiles the webs are the last tool of face melting man pvp. I can see where you fall out in the equation.

I don't like your character at all. He's trying to ruin the game just like Fozziecide. (because BC NEEDED longer range to be fun?)
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2015-10-14 14:53:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmer Jones
One of the best ideas for alternate/replacement webs:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=399922

If this was implemented I might agree to reducing web potency, otherwise they're fine as they are.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#73 - 2015-10-14 15:28:06 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Offering clarity as to "Why" specifically; the concept of flatly slowing ships down is sort of "unnatural". There is no precedent for this kind of mechanic in any similar game. It serves to flatly decrease the range of movement options that the opponent has while under it effect. While that does have its explicitly intended purpose, it becomes a sort of staple in much of brawling in general and reduces many of brawling engagements to straight up slugfests where mobility is essentially negated.

Because of their line as a "staple" weapon they create an artificial commitment range where, once entered, combat slows to a near halt and in many cases can be inescapable. This directly contributes to the awkward place of brawling in general and the kite heavy meta in the current iteration of EVE. It is largely non-interactive like most forms of EWAR (which are equally bad in many cases) :however, unlike many other forms of EWAR webbing pertains a much higher prevalence on the battlefield and is not locked in its effectiveness to specific ships.

Instead of trailing on, ultimately, it is usually makes for a far more entertaining, immersive, and interactive engagement if damage application and interdiction revolved more around actual movement, positioning, velocity, and the calculation of these things; rather than simply slowing down the opponent as much as possible in a way that is very awkward to respond to.


So you'll just replace boring, non-interaction with webbed fights with boring non-interaction kiting fights. That's just as non-interactive, because it just involves staying away from everyone and using linked points to make up the range. That sounds MORE boring than the current state of webs.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#74 - 2015-10-14 15:42:19 UTC
Valacus wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Offering clarity as to "Why" specifically; the concept of flatly slowing ships down is sort of "unnatural". There is no precedent for this kind of mechanic in any similar game. It serves to flatly decrease the range of movement options that the opponent has while under it effect. While that does have its explicitly intended purpose, it becomes a sort of staple in much of brawling in general and reduces many of brawling engagements to straight up slugfests where mobility is essentially negated.

Because of their line as a "staple" weapon they create an artificial commitment range where, once entered, combat slows to a near halt and in many cases can be inescapable. This directly contributes to the awkward place of brawling in general and the kite heavy meta in the current iteration of EVE. It is largely non-interactive like most forms of EWAR (which are equally bad in many cases) :however, unlike many other forms of EWAR webbing pertains a much higher prevalence on the battlefield and is not locked in its effectiveness to specific ships.

Instead of trailing on, ultimately, it is usually makes for a far more entertaining, immersive, and interactive engagement if damage application and interdiction revolved more around actual movement, positioning, velocity, and the calculation of these things; rather than simply slowing down the opponent as much as possible in a way that is very awkward to respond to.


So you'll just replace boring, non-interaction with webbed fights with boring non-interaction kiting fights. That's just as non-interactive, because it just involves staying away from everyone and using linked points to make up the range. That sounds MORE boring than the current state of webs.


No, because with kiting you can either warp out (which is fun) or bring big F1alphamonkey fleets (nothing is more fun then being the victim of an alpha fleet).

/sarcasm/
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#75 - 2015-10-14 15:43:02 UTC
Imo webs are only broken in fleet settings (a web equals multiple guidance computers/tracking computers on every single dps ship in your fleet), otherwise imo they are fine.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#76 - 2015-10-14 15:46:33 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:


Webs are the last bastion of manhood in the game. With Fozziecide turning most ships in the game into riskaversepussifiedkitingmobiles the webs are the last tool of face melting man pvp. I can see where you fall out in the equation.



Amen. Death to all kiting nanofags. And by that, I mean get that perfect warp-in, overheat everything to get the scram and web on them, then either kill them or get kited to death. Eve needs fewer ways to get out of a fight once you are in it, not more.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#77 - 2015-10-15 04:09:37 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Btw, don't you just primarily fly catalysts and gank freighters? Have you actually ever tried to set up the fight for and fc a fleet of frigates trying to engage anything larger than them?


Frigates have the choice to engage or avoid battleships, but battleships have such slow warp speed and lock times they don't get to choose if they want to engage frigates or not and that's the balancing factor. Now if battleships can't fight frigates, and can't avoid them NOBODY will use battleships, on the other hand frigates will always be used because you can just warp away while he's locking you if you don't fancy it.

I have NO sympathy for a gang of derps in frigates who take a fight they can't win.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2015-10-15 04:21:53 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Btw, don't you just primarily fly catalysts and gank freighters? Have you actually ever tried to set up the fight for and fc a fleet of frigates trying to engage anything larger than them?


Frigates have the choice to engage or avoid battleships, but battleships have such slow warp speed and lock times they don't get to choose if they want to engage frigates or not and that's the balancing factor. Now if battleships can't fight frigates, and can't avoid them NOBODY will use battleships, on the other hand *T3D's* will always be used because you can just warp away while he's locking you if you don't fancy it.

I have NO sympathy for a gang of derps in frigates who take a fight they can't win.



Fixed

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2015-10-15 04:57:23 UTC
I think battleships should have extra high-slots that are used for fitting medium and small sized weapons. That way your battleship can have a full rack of large weapons, and then a rack of either small or medium sized for shooting at smaller ships. Battleships should murder frigates if they get too close.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#80 - 2015-10-15 05:03:25 UTC
If webs are included in the 'new modules that will gain fall off' a lot of this 'sudden' change to speed barrier will dissipate.
I'd like to see both webs & points gain fall off.
Scrams could be changed from 'MWD entirely off' to 'MWD speed bonus reduced by 100%' then as you go into fall off you don't shut their MWD off entirely also.

So at 2* falloff a point might be down to 0.25 strength. So you need 4 of them to hold a target at that range, but it can be done.
A web would be down to 15% speed decrease vs 60%

Removes the hard barrier, makes it a curve, which removes a lot of the stated problems here.