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Nerf Webs
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#81 - 2015-10-15 12:17:34 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
I think battleships should have extra high-slots that are used for fitting medium and small sized weapons. That way your battleship can have a full rack of large weapons, and then a rack of either small or medium sized for shooting at smaller ships. Battleships should murder frigates if they get too close.


Only one really bad idea per thread please. (exception is that 'one line bad ideas thread)

Webs should also cause heat damage to any prop mods they are working against. If a webbed ship overheats to get out of web range the heat damage should be double and the time until it burns out should be cut in half. This would be in line with every space movie ever made where the good guys are trying to escape the (fill in movie specific space ship sucking mechanism) force near the end of the movie. All good captians double down and trash their GTFO thruster stuff when trying to escape the "their pulling us in" thinger. Eve should be no different.
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#82 - 2015-10-15 15:38:00 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Valacus wrote:
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Offering clarity as to "Why" specifically; the concept of flatly slowing ships down is sort of "unnatural". There is no precedent for this kind of mechanic in any similar game. It serves to flatly decrease the range of movement options that the opponent has while under it effect. While that does have its explicitly intended purpose, it becomes a sort of staple in much of brawling in general and reduces many of brawling engagements to straight up slugfests where mobility is essentially negated.

Because of their line as a "staple" weapon they create an artificial commitment range where, once entered, combat slows to a near halt and in many cases can be inescapable. This directly contributes to the awkward place of brawling in general and the kite heavy meta in the current iteration of EVE. It is largely non-interactive like most forms of EWAR (which are equally bad in many cases) :however, unlike many other forms of EWAR webbing pertains a much higher prevalence on the battlefield and is not locked in its effectiveness to specific ships.

Instead of trailing on, ultimately, it is usually makes for a far more entertaining, immersive, and interactive engagement if damage application and interdiction revolved more around actual movement, positioning, velocity, and the calculation of these things; rather than simply slowing down the opponent as much as possible in a way that is very awkward to respond to.


So you'll just replace boring, non-interaction with webbed fights with boring non-interaction kiting fights. That's just as non-interactive, because it just involves staying away from everyone and using linked points to make up the range. That sounds MORE boring than the current state of webs.


No, because with kiting you can either warp out (which is fun) or bring big F1alphamonkey fleets (nothing is more fun then being the victim of an alpha fleet).

/sarcasm/





IKR, just what we need, MORE kiting and less risk. And people wonder why no one flies battleships anymore.
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2015-10-16 04:00:49 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
I think battleships should have extra high-slots that are used for fitting medium and small sized weapons. That way your battleship can have a full rack of large weapons, and then a rack of either small or medium sized for shooting at smaller ships. Battleships should murder frigates if they get too close.


Only one really bad idea per thread please. (exception is that 'one line bad ideas thread)

Webs should also cause heat damage to any prop mods they are working against. If a webbed ship overheats to get out of web range the heat damage should be double and the time until it burns out should be cut in half. This would be in line with every space movie ever made where the good guys are trying to escape the (fill in movie specific space ship sucking mechanism) force near the end of the movie. All good captians double down and trash their GTFO thruster stuff when trying to escape the "their pulling us in" thinger. Eve should be no different.

Think about it. How could a frigate ever go near a battleship and hope to survive? Battleships should be heavy duty firepower and resilience, but they can barely even hit a frigate, that makes no sense, they should have extra medium and small sized weapons on their battleships specifically for defense against lighter ships.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#84 - 2015-10-16 05:17:53 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
I think battleships should have extra high-slots that are used for fitting medium and small sized weapons. That way your battleship can have a full rack of large weapons, and then a rack of either small or medium sized for shooting at smaller ships. Battleships should murder frigates if they get too close.


Only one really bad idea per thread please. (exception is that 'one line bad ideas thread)

Webs should also cause heat damage to any prop mods they are working against. If a webbed ship overheats to get out of web range the heat damage should be double and the time until it burns out should be cut in half. This would be in line with every space movie ever made where the good guys are trying to escape the (fill in movie specific space ship sucking mechanism) force near the end of the movie. All good captians double down and trash their GTFO thruster stuff when trying to escape the "their pulling us in" thinger. Eve should be no different.

Think about it. How could a frigate ever go near a battleship and hope to survive? Battleships should be heavy duty firepower and resilience, but they can barely even hit a frigate, that makes no sense, they should have extra medium and small sized weapons on their battleships specifically for defense against lighter ships.



This would render everything under battleships useless.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2015-10-16 06:19:55 UTC
I think webs are a bit strong and I also think their range is a bit low. I would not support directly nerfing them as I believe they are balanced where they are, but I do think that most pilots, both who are using webs and who are the target of webs, would be happier overall with webs that have a longer range and weaker effect.

But the biggest problem with webs is when the ship has a bonus to the effectiveness of webs. The way the bonus works causes the effect to become far stronger than the 50% bonus would insinuate, with the actual power increase depending strongly on the base web value.

I think that the bonus to web effectiveness should use a diminishing return calculation--I could write up some complex maths for it, or it could just be as easy as having the bonus act as a further speed reduction, for instance a level 5 bonus (+50% effectiveness) would become -50% remaining velocity. Here is how it would affect the modules:

Stasis Webifier I - 50% velocity reduction
Current velocity reduction with skill bonus: 75%
New velocity reduction with skill bonus: 75%

Stasis Webifier II - 60% velocity reduction
Current velocity reduction with skill bonus: 90%
New velocity reduction with skill bonus: 80%

This essentially makes the T2 25% stronger than the T1 with the skill bonus, as opposed to 150% stronger than the T1 with the skill bonus. In either case, it is 20% stronger than the T1 without the bonus.
This change could also allow faction variants to offer a higher speed reduction, instead of only increasing range.




I actually feel that the current web strength is too high because it enables cruiser weapons to easily hit frigates, and even allows battleships to hit frigates with little trouble. Case in point: in incursion vanguard sites, battleships will fit short range large turrets along with usually 1-2 of either stasis webifier, tracking computer, or tracking enhancer. A fleet of ~10 ships (usually 7-8 battleships) will tend to have about 1-3 unbonused webs on a frigate NPC target and maybe a target painter. This is easily above what is needed to deal full damage to the frigate NPC, with no significant loss of damage due to tracking. In fact I recall one fleet I was in that was poorly equipped, often the main target was not webbed at all and would be taking very little damage (probably mostly from the drones), but when I webbed it, suddenly my own turrets began to hit it, and it would perish rapidly as other fleetmembers also began to score hits. These NPC frigates have a speed, sig radius, and hit points comparable to player frigates with prop mod off (as if they were using MWD) and we'd dispatch literally dozens of these in under ten minutes, with only one webifier in the fleet.

I'd like to see a new kind of webifier which has a reduced effect on ships too large or small for it. There could be five or six sizes, allowing anyone to have a preferable web choice that gives them the opportunity to strongly web the right size of ship while still being able to have a weaker effect on other sizes.

Small: 5km range, 1MW powergrid
- strong vs frigates, moderate vs cruisers, weak vs battleships. Easy for frigates to fit+use, short range makes it lousy for battleships to use.

Medium-small: 7.5km range, 5MW powergrid
- fairly strong vs frigates and cruisers, fairly weak vs battleships. Pretty easy for frigates to use but more effective on cruisers.

Medium: 12.5km range, 20MW powergrid
- strong vs cruisers, moderate vs frigates and battleships, weak vs capital ships. Good all-around webifier effective against all subcaps, long enough range for a battleship but low enough fitting for a frigate to use.

Medium-large: 20km range, 90MW powergrid
- fairly strong vs cruisers and battleships, fairly weak vs frigates and capital ships. Pretty easy for a cruiser to mount but too high for a frigate, allows a cruiser decent webbing of battleships or other cruisers.

Large: 30km range, 400MW powergrid
- strong vs battleships, moderate vs cruisers and capital ships, weak vs frigates and supercapitals. High fitting cost for cruisers, grants battleships superior range to make up for their poor maneuverability and grants the strongest webbing of other battleships.

X-Large: 45km range, 1800MW powergrid
- strong vs all capital and supercapital ships, moderate vs battleships, weak vs cruisers. Can be fit to a battleship in order to web a capital and prevent it from speed tanking siege weaponry, or can be fit to a carrier to web battleships at ranges longer than most short range battleship weapons can fire.


Having webifiers like this would force the player to make important decisions when selecting a webifier. It allows for a lot of room to fit oversized webs, so that smaller ships can still web larger ships (at high powergrid cost) while larger ships can still web smaller ships (at reduced range) but having the best effectiveness may come at a cost. It allows webs to maintain the same current strength while also getting more range in some cases, and helps to improve the defenses of frigates, since it will now be more difficult for large ships to web them into oblivion.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#86 - 2015-10-16 06:20:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
I think battleships should have extra high-slots that are used for fitting medium and small sized weapons. That way your battleship can have a full rack of large weapons, and then a rack of either small or medium sized for shooting at smaller ships. Battleships should murder frigates if they get too close.


Only one really bad idea per thread please. (exception is that 'one line bad ideas thread)

Webs should also cause heat damage to any prop mods they are working against. If a webbed ship overheats to get out of web range the heat damage should be double and the time until it burns out should be cut in half. This would be in line with every space movie ever made where the good guys are trying to escape the (fill in movie specific space ship sucking mechanism) force near the end of the movie. All good captians double down and trash their GTFO thruster stuff when trying to escape the "their pulling us in" thinger. Eve should be no different.

Think about it. How could a frigate ever go near a battleship and hope to survive? Battleships should be heavy duty firepower and resilience, but they can barely even hit a frigate, that makes no sense, they should have extra medium and small sized weapons on their battleships specifically for defense against lighter ships.



This would render everything under battleships useless.


I disagree, 1-2 unbonused mediums guns that do marginally low dps in exchange for tracking certainly does not make Battleships apex.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#87 - 2015-10-16 06:24:34 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I think webs are a bit strong and I also think their range is a bit low. I would not support directly nerfing them as I believe they are balanced where they are, but I do think that most pilots, both who are using webs and who are the target of webs, would be happier overall with webs that have a longer range and weaker effect.

But the biggest problem with webs is when the ship has a bonus to the effectiveness of webs. The way the bonus works causes the effect to become far stronger than the 50% bonus would insinuate, with the actual power increase depending strongly on the base web value.

I think that the bonus to web effectiveness should use a diminishing return calculation--I could write up some complex maths for it, or it could just be as easy as having the bonus act as a further speed reduction, for instance a level 5 bonus (+50% effectiveness) would become -50% remaining velocity. Here is how it would affect the modules:

Stasis Webifier I - 50% velocity reduction
Current velocity reduction with skill bonus: 75%
New velocity reduction with skill bonus: 75%

Stasis Webifier II - 60% velocity reduction
Current velocity reduction with skill bonus: 90%
New velocity reduction with skill bonus: 80%

This essentially makes the T2 25% stronger than the T1 with the skill bonus, as opposed to 150% stronger than the T1 with the skill bonus. In either case, it is 20% stronger than the T1 without the bonus.
This change could also allow faction variants to offer a higher speed reduction, instead of only increasing range.




I actually feel that the current web strength is too high because it enables cruiser weapons to easily hit frigates, and even allows battleships to hit frigates with little trouble. Case in point: in incursion vanguard sites, battleships will fit short range large turrets along with usually 1-2 of either stasis webifier, tracking computer, or tracking enhancer. A fleet of ~10 ships (usually 7-8 battleships) will tend to have about 1-3 unbonused webs on a frigate NPC target and maybe a target painter. This is easily above what is needed to deal full damage to the frigate NPC, with no significant loss of damage due to tracking. In fact I recall one fleet I was in that was poorly equipped, often the main target was not webbed at all and would be taking very little damage (probably mostly from the drones), but when I webbed it, suddenly my own turrets began to hit it, and it would perish rapidly as other fleetmembers also began to score hits. These NPC frigates have a speed, sig radius, and hit points comparable to player frigates with prop mod off (as if they were using MWD) and we'd dispatch literally dozens of these in under ten minutes, with only one webifier in the fleet.

I'd like to see a new kind of webifier which has a reduced effect on ships too large or small for it. There could be five or six sizes, allowing anyone to have a preferable web choice that gives them the opportunity to strongly web the right size of ship while still being able to have a weaker effect on other sizes.

Small: 5km range, 1MW powergrid
- strong vs frigates, moderate vs cruisers, weak vs battleships. Easy for frigates to fit+use, short range makes it lousy for battleships to use.

Medium-small: 7.5km range, 5MW powergrid
- fairly strong vs frigates and cruisers, fairly weak vs battleships. Pretty easy for frigates to use but more effective on cruisers.

Medium: 12.5km range, 20MW powergrid
- strong vs cruisers, moderate vs frigates and battleships, weak vs capital ships. Good all-around webifier effective against all subcaps, long enough range for a battleship but low enough fitting for a frigate to use.

Medium-large: 20km range, 90MW powergrid
- fairly strong vs cruisers and battleships, fairly weak vs frigates and capital ships. Pretty easy for a cruiser to mount but too high for a frigate, allows a cruiser decent webbing of battleships or other cruisers.

Large: 30km range, 400MW powergrid
- strong vs battleships, moderate vs cruisers and capital ships, weak vs frigates and supercapitals. High fitting cost for cruisers, grants battleships superior range to make up for their poor maneuverability and grants the strongest webbing of other battleships.

X-Large: 45km range, 1800MW powergrid
- strong vs all capital and supercapital ships, moderate vs battleships, weak vs cruisers. Can be fit to a battleship in order to web a capital and prevent it from speed tanking siege weaponry, or can be fit to a carrier to web battleships at ranges longer than most short range battleship weapons can fire.


Having webifiers like this would force the player to make important decisions when selecting a webifier. It allows for a lot of room to fit oversized webs, so that smaller ships can still web larger ships (at high powergrid cost) while larger ships can still web smaller ships (at reduced range) but having the best effectiveness may come at a cost. It allows webs to maintain the same current strength while also getting more range in some cases, and helps to improve the defenses of frigates, since it will now be more difficult for large ships to web them into oblivion.


Why don't you run for CSM since you like making unusual and new suggestions on essentially every conceivable topic.
Azazel The Misanthrope
Oblivion's Pendulum
Top Tier
#88 - 2015-10-16 06:29:27 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
I think battleships should have extra high-slots that are used for fitting medium and small sized weapons. That way your battleship can have a full rack of large weapons, and then a rack of either small or medium sized for shooting at smaller ships. Battleships should murder frigates if they get too close.


Only one really bad idea per thread please. (exception is that 'one line bad ideas thread)

Webs should also cause heat damage to any prop mods they are working against. If a webbed ship overheats to get out of web range the heat damage should be double and the time until it burns out should be cut in half. This would be in line with every space movie ever made where the good guys are trying to escape the (fill in movie specific space ship sucking mechanism) force near the end of the movie. All good captians double down and trash their GTFO thruster stuff when trying to escape the "their pulling us in" thinger. Eve should be no different.


This suggestion is pretty hypocritical on the "one bad idea per thread" statement that it makes by proceeding with a bad idea a mere sentence after it made that statement. This would surely result in the obsolescence of afterburners everywhere unless the amount of heat damage they could take was increased substantially. Heated Props only last seconds as it is.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#89 - 2015-10-16 06:40:45 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:


I disagree, 1-2 unbonused mediums guns that do marginally low dps in exchange for tracking certainly does not make Battleships apex.



2x light missiles with 2x rapid light missiles with 7 rapid heavy missiles on a raven hull.

Now throw an interceptor at it.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2015-10-16 07:07:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Why don't you run for CSM since you like making unusual and new suggestions on essentially every conceivable topic.

My powers are better served voting on the CSM. I don't have the capacity to take in the public feedback on the basis of popularity, for I have a strong bias toward ideas that I think are decent.

baltec1 wrote:
2x light missiles with 2x rapid light missiles with 7 rapid heavy missiles on a raven hull.

Now throw an interceptor at it.
Take the drones off for the mediums+smalls and you have a deal.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Arla Sarain
#91 - 2015-10-16 09:59:22 UTC
Valacus wrote:
[ And people wonder why no one flies battleships anymore.

Because of T3Cruisers which are faster to move and get just as much tank and utility.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#92 - 2015-10-16 11:52:55 UTC
Azazel The Misanthrope wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
I think battleships should have extra high-slots that are used for fitting medium and small sized weapons. That way your battleship can have a full rack of large weapons, and then a rack of either small or medium sized for shooting at smaller ships. Battleships should murder frigates if they get too close.


Only one really bad idea per thread please. (exception is that 'one line bad ideas thread)

Webs should also cause heat damage to any prop mods they are working against. If a webbed ship overheats to get out of web range the heat damage should be double and the time until it burns out should be cut in half. This would be in line with every space movie ever made where the good guys are trying to escape the (fill in movie specific space ship sucking mechanism) force near the end of the movie. All good captians double down and trash their GTFO thruster stuff when trying to escape the "their pulling us in" thinger. Eve should be no different.


This suggestion is pretty hypocritical on the "one bad idea per thread" statement that it makes by proceeding with a bad idea a mere sentence after it made that statement. This would surely result in the obsolescence of afterburners everywhere unless the amount of heat damage they could take was increased substantially. Heated Props only last seconds as it is.


I just fell in love with you. If it's wrong.... I don't want to be right.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2015-10-16 20:06:38 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Valacus wrote:
[ And people wonder why no one flies battleships anymore.

Because of T3Cruisers which are faster to move and get just as much tank and utility.

Also just as much DPS with far better tracking and not that much less range which is easily made up for by their far greater maneuverability.



Serendipity Lost wrote:
I just fell in love with you. If it's wrong.... I don't want to be right.

Sometimes the more wrong it is, the more right it is.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2015-10-16 20:11:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Ares Desideratus wrote:
I think battleships should have extra high-slots that are used for fitting medium and small sized weapons. That way your battleship can have a full rack of large weapons, and then a rack of either small or medium sized for shooting at smaller ships. Battleships should murder frigates if they get too close.


Only one really bad idea per thread please. (exception is that 'one line bad ideas thread)

Webs should also cause heat damage to any prop mods they are working against. If a webbed ship overheats to get out of web range the heat damage should be double and the time until it burns out should be cut in half. This would be in line with every space movie ever made where the good guys are trying to escape the (fill in movie specific space ship sucking mechanism) force near the end of the movie. All good captians double down and trash their GTFO thruster stuff when trying to escape the "their pulling us in" thinger. Eve should be no different.

Think about it. How could a frigate ever go near a battleship and hope to survive? Battleships should be heavy duty firepower and resilience, but they can barely even hit a frigate, that makes no sense, they should have extra medium and small sized weapons on their battleships specifically for defense against lighter ships.



This would render everything under battleships useless.

No because smaller ships would still have a significant speed advantage and could easily stay out of the battleships range. So they wouldn't be useless, they just wouldn't be able to hit orbit on a battleship and be untouched by the battleships weapons.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#95 - 2015-10-16 20:13:33 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:

No because smaller ships would still have a significant speed advantage and could easily stay out of the battleships range. So they wouldn't be useless, they just wouldn't be able to hit orbit on a battleship and be untouched by the battleships weapons.


All of those weapons systems fire well past point range.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2015-10-17 00:28:15 UTC
the nature of this module (web) is to impact your ship speed but not to interrupt work of propulsion module.

i'm thinking it would be more efficient to add such feature into Warp Disruptor role since Scramble the only thing which works against one of the propulsion modules.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP