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In Response to Sugar Kyle - Highsec development

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Anna Karhunen
Inoue INEXP
#101 - 2015-10-07 21:40:56 UTC
One of the ideas that would add nice spice to High Sec space (though those could/would be used elsewhere as well).

As my old maths teacher used to say: "Statistics are like bikinis: It's what they don't show that's interesting". -CCP Aporia
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#102 - 2015-10-07 23:20:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Vic Jefferson
Invert wardec costs.

A small group challenging a large one should basically be free - if they want the challenge, or the large group is that big and can't keep itself safe, this sort of thing should be encouraged. Large groups should not be able to hide from smaller ones behind a massive wardec fee.

Opening up bigger groups to being targets has better conflict driving ability than large groups just dumpstering small ones, as these conflicts tend to be settled in sort order.

It might be anecdotal, but right now new players are either in HS, or being factory farmed by big null alliances to hold sov for them - incidentally these represent two of the most accessible and available income streams for newer players in missions or anoms. Low and NPC null need to be viable options for those who want to live on the edge in small groups, but one of the big barriers is accessible and available income, which in turn part of the problem is that high is just so good and so safe that there is no compelling reason to explore other options, when in the long run staying in high is probably bad for them and being factory farmed by a large impersonal sov alliance isn't for everyone.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#103 - 2015-10-08 06:35:11 UTC
Another one on Sugar Kyle blog so:
EvE Theme park
Few good ideas like lvl 5 missions back to hisec with minimal reward increase. Also good idea with cosmos like missions. They wouldn't take much time to develop. Let's say random rats spawning at moons or planets. No need to build deadspace pockets.
It would be refreshing from standard "named" deadspace missions.
The two extremes are not mutually exclusive!
Completely disagree with above. Nerf hisec but make it more fun? Fun but poor? How exactly? Losses must be compensate. If I'll lost my Gila in DED with 15 mil reward that's not fun at all.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2015-10-08 07:12:08 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
Honestly, burner missions is VERY much the right direction. Anyone running lv4 missions that have not done so yet need to look into burners.

I recently started working on Cal Navy standings for reasons(tm). Luckily I had enough Caldari standings to start straight away with Lv3s so grabbed a blitzing T3 and got my standings up to to do Lv4s again. This in itself was a nice change of pace and some of the missions can be somewhat challenging and/or frustrating if you're not face rolling them with a Mach. However once I hit Lv4s my faction standing obviously hasn't quite caught up with my corp standing so I can't just decline missions as per normal blitzing left and right.

Now here's the interesting bit. Being forced to do all those missions that I can't blitz and that I haven't run in over 2 months brought into focus not only how horrendously mind numbingly boring most normal lv4s are, but just how much burner missions have changed running lv4 missions in general and for me specifically. It's night and day. Every second of running a burner mission you're doing something, paying attention to something etc. especially if oyu want to maximise your profit. There's also the constant threat of making one mistake and losing your 100mill investment. It's not as much as say, a 700mill-1bill(or more) missioning BS but it still stings, just not enough for you to quit the game. It's a loss you can quickly recover from. The reward/risk formula feels almost perfect honestly, whereas normal lv4s the reward is kinda meh and theres NO risk short of you literally falling asleep. Heck even then there's fits for if you suffer from narcolepcy.

Basically it doesn't matter how many skillpoints you have or how shiny your fit, if you make one too many mistakes you're dead.

The engagement is the important part though. Yes, the missions are still the 'same', but thats ok because it requires your attention ever second of the fight, every fight. You have to monitor OH on your guns/hardeners/paint/scram/etc. or make sure your range is always right, or manage your drones from super aggressive ai or just keep launching sacrificial bait drones, keep cap charges going or remember to OH your ASB. It incorporates so much of what makes PvP fun and great while still keeping the predictability most hard core PvE players want. It's fast, stimulating and engaging.

More burners is not THE only answer, but it sure as hell is PART of the answer. Please keep making missions that require specialized builds and OH! And if you haven't tried them yet you are missing out big time.


It is worth pointing out that burners also encourage PvE focussed players to train stuff like thermodynamics and ewar skills and racial frigate skills to V, something they would never previously have done and something very useful if they ever do venture into PvP.

It is also far more likely that a mission/incursion runner (due to the fact some degree of attention is needed in incursions and missions) will cross over to PvP than the miner/freighter pilot who is playing EVE while finishing work reports feeding the crying baby and trying to cook dinner all at the same time.
Beta Maoye
#105 - 2015-10-08 07:14:46 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Beta Maoye wrote:
I always love the player-driven free economy in eve universe. It will be great if they can hire game designer(s) with economic and/or financial background to create advance economic gameplay within the eve universe by utilizing modern financial instruments such as stocks, bonds, futures and options.


As someone who works in investment management, with the absence of regulation/required financial documents that are audited by a ruling authority, this would be pretty difficult to do.

EVE's economy is much, much 'free-er' than real life


I agreed it will be very difficult to do. However, I think, in a few aspects, it will be easier in EVE than real life because we have "gods" in EVE. The whole EVE universe, from a piece of rock to star systems, is created by developers. Every kind of items is unique and standardized. My Ishtar is exactly the same as your Ishtar. Much like commodity. They can keep track of every single micro-transaction and every single piece of asset for every corporation. Once the records are in place, financial reports can be compiled automatically as frequently as they want. The reports can be published daily, monthly, quarterly or even yearly. No audit is required. Regulation issues are more complicated. It will be impossible to implement all the real world regulations in the game. The listing rules must be simplified to make it possible to be implemented.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2015-10-08 07:19:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Beta Maoye wrote:
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Beta Maoye wrote:
I always love the player-driven free economy in eve universe. It will be great if they can hire game designer(s) with economic and/or financial background to create advance economic gameplay within the eve universe by utilizing modern financial instruments such as stocks, bonds, futures and options.


As someone who works in investment management, with the absence of regulation/required financial documents that are audited by a ruling authority, this would be pretty difficult to do.

EVE's economy is much, much 'free-er' than real life


I agreed it will be very difficult to do. However, I think, in a few aspects, it will be easier in EVE than real life because we have "gods" in EVE. The whole EVE universe, from a piece of rock to star systems, is created by developers. Every kind of items is unique and standardized. My Ishtar is exactly the same as your Ishtar. Much like commodity. They can keep track of every single micro-transaction and every single piece of asset for every corporation. Once the records are in place, financial reports can be compiled automatically as frequently as they want. The reports can be published daily, monthly, quarterly or even yearly. No audit is required. Regulation issues are more complicated. It will be impossible to implement all the real world regulations in the game. The listing rules must be simplified to make it possible to be implemented.


Even so some of the EVE economy is overly simplistic. Margin trading for example, no margin calls and no penalty for defaulting (I am not sure what penalty would work? A temporary reduction in margin trading benefits possibly?).

Contracts have similar issues.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#107 - 2015-10-08 07:40:00 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

The two extremes are not mutually exclusive!
Completely disagree with above. Nerf hisec but make it more fun? Fun but poor? How exactly? Losses must be compensate. If I'll lost my Gila in DED with 15 mil reward that's not fun at all.
This is Gevlon's point. He is arguing that highsec should be full of "fun" content, but it doesn't have to be rewarding content. You don't lose that Gila in a DED site, at least you don't 95%+ of the time in highsec. So why should you be paid nearly what someone earns who does offer themselves up as content for other players and does lose ships more frequently while operating in low/null/WH?

Fun should be the currency of highsec, not economy-altering levels of ISK/resources. People should run the content there only because they enjoy it, not to accumulate ISK. If they want to accumulate ISK, the game should be balanced such that that is more efficiently done in the more dangerous spaces where the player will serve as a target and is competing against other players. Your "fun" should not depend on whether you get x or 2x as a reward for running a PvE mission - the content of the mission is identical.

His numbers may be extreme, but the point is valid. Highsec themeparkers do not need nearly the income they are earning. All this high pay does is attract other, competitive players from the more riskier spaces to make a comfortable living safely in highsec stifling the rest of the game. And while this is pure speculation, it also may even hurt player retention as it allows a "leveling my Raven" PvE themeparker to burn through the limited mission content even faster than if it took a little longer to earn that max-fit ship and quit the game sooner.

Perhaps the risk the Drifters pose may change the risk vs. reward balance in highsec, but right now, highsec pays way too much for how safe it is and has been for years. And we are all seeing the negative effects of that in the current state of nullsec.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Beta Maoye
#108 - 2015-10-08 07:57:40 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:

Even so some of the EVE economy is overly simplistic. Margin trading for example, no margin calls and no penalty for defaulting (I am not sure what penalty would work? A temporary reduction in margin trading benefits possibly?).

Contracts have similar issues.

I think margin trading should be confined to items that have large daily trading volume. It should not be allowed to use on items that are sold only once per weeks or months.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#109 - 2015-10-08 07:59:42 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:


Fun should be the currency of highsec, not economy-altering levels of ISK/resources. People should run the content there only because they enjoy it, not to accumulate ISK. If they want to accumulate ISK, the game should be balanced such that that is more efficiently done in the more dangerous spaces where the player will serve as a target and is competing against other players.


Hisec players count success in billions of ISK and spend it on useless stuff like cosmetic things and rare ship colections becasue that is how they measure success. Most do not even know what a killmail is and if they do only look it up to see if someone in local is likely to be dangerous before undocking the freighter.

The only way to change that dynamic is get rid of those players entirely which aside from anything else makes hisec a bit pointless - changes that open hisec to losec style pvP are just expanding losec which is already empty.

I realise many people DO want to get rid of hisec but that does not seem to be the point in the original blog.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#110 - 2015-10-08 08:26:15 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
(...)

PvE players don't want to PvP or they would be PvPing.

(...)


Exactly. And yet when CCP adds new PvE (Burners) they do so in ways that would force PvErs to PvP (wormholes, lowsec...).

Sometimes it's not that CCP doesn't does something, but that what they do doesn't makes sense from players perspective.


How do burner missions force you to go to low sec and wormholes to PvP?


Lapsus calami. Was meant to write "Drifters".

The drifter incursions in LS are(were) completely optional and payed out less than normal incursions. How in the 9 hells does anyone force you to go do drifters? Just flat out ignore them until CCP makes them worth running (when they put them back in) If CCP can't be bothered to make something worth PvE runner's time then just don't run it.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Black Pedro
Mine.
#111 - 2015-10-08 08:50:18 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:


Fun should be the currency of highsec, not economy-altering levels of ISK/resources. People should run the content there only because they enjoy it, not to accumulate ISK. If they want to accumulate ISK, the game should be balanced such that that is more efficiently done in the more dangerous spaces where the player will serve as a target and is competing against other players.


Hisec players count success in billions of ISK and spend it on useless stuff like cosmetic things and rare ship colections becasue that is how they measure success. Most do not even know what a killmail is and if they do only look it up to see if someone in local is likely to be dangerous before undocking the freighter.

The only way to change that dynamic is get rid of those players entirely which aside from anything else makes hisec a bit pointless - changes that open hisec to losec style pvP are just expanding losec which is already empty.

I realise many people DO want to get rid of hisec but that does not seem to be the point in the original blog.

Neither Gevlon nor I want to "get rid" of highsec. We just want to have it respect the "Risk vs. Reward" design the game was built on.

I know many highsec players have no interest in killmails. CCP should do what it can to keep them happy. But right now, the situation is so out of whack that as Gevlon said, the most efficient way to earn enough for a Titan for your nullsec alliance is to go to highsec and grind incursions, almost perfectly safe from all your nullsec enemies. That is absurd.

Reward highsec PvE with cosmetic things and silly collectibles then, not ISK and resources which can be used in the competitive parts of the game. Make the PvE content there as fun as they possibly can with the developer resources available, but make it make pay less or pay partly in something else that doesn't attract competitive players back from the other parts of the game. Eve is suppose to be a full-time, PvP sandbox game and the ratcheting up of easy highsec ISK in the last five years is limiting player-driven conflict and content overall in the game.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#112 - 2015-10-08 09:33:03 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
But right now, the situation is so out of whack that as Gevlon said, the most efficient way to earn enough for a Titan for your nullsec alliance is to go to highsec and grind incursions, almost perfectly safe from all your nullsec enemies. That is absurd.

Incursions are absurd. Other aspects of the game in hisec were constantly nerfed. Exploration is a joke (apart from running DEDs), missions can only be done in hisec (apart from some of them in lowsec, but who is running missions in lowsec?), minning? industry? There were some buffs to nullsec lately still no exodus into it. Nullsec need some commitment to the game. To build and fight for it. Aparently there are very few on whole player base that want to participate in that. Gevlon want to nerf hisec but don't say how he want to do it. Term "fun" depend on player.
Black Pedro wrote:

Reward highsec PvE with cosmetic things and silly collectibles then, not ISK and resources which can be used in the competitive parts of the game. Make the PvE content there as fun as they possibly can with the developer resources available, but make it make pay less or pay partly in something else that doesn't attract competitive players back from the other parts of the game.

Most of content is ISK driven. Apart from combat PvP. When we remove the ability to earn ISK for "leveling Raven", people just go away. Do you know how many data/relics sites in hisec I should do for tengu? Now imagine L3 paid so low that you have to farm them for 6 months to buy "raven", if you are missioner you don't have the choice. Lowsec is no go for missions. Where's the fun? There is no straight progress in professions. Carrot is not working, there are insane amount of ISK in null and null became safer and safer (my last two weeks trip to null, I found 5 (sic!) wormholes total), I did see some movement in there, but not as much I was expected.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Black Pedro
Mine.
#113 - 2015-10-08 11:57:33 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

Incursions are absurd. Other aspects of the game in hisec were constantly nerfed. Exploration is a joke (apart from running DEDs), missions can only be done in hisec (apart from some of them in lowsec, but who is running missions in lowsec?), minning? industry? There were some buffs to nullsec lately still no exodus into it. Nullsec need some commitment to the game. To build and fight for it. Aparently there are very few on whole player base that want to participate in that. Gevlon want to nerf hisec but don't say how he want to do it. Term "fun" depend on player.

Of course no one wants to commit, because what is the point in spending all that effort on taking, maintaining and defending your own space if the PvE opportunities pays about the same as running L4 highsec missions, and less than grinding incursions? The allure of all that work for no benefit other than bragging rights appeals to a select few individuals.

As long as highsec pays similar, and requires much less effort to work in, nullsec will remain underpopulated. That is fine if that is what CCP intends for the game to be. But they should not have any illusions why players are choosing not to move out of highsec, or even move back to highsec from nullsec, when the incentives and effort ratios are like this. Nullsec will remain stagnant.

Jeremiah Saken wrote:

Most of content is ISK driven. Apart from combat PvP. When we remove the ability to earn ISK for "leveling Raven", people just go away. Do you know how many data/relics sites in hisec I should do for tengu? Now imagine L3 paid so low that you have to farm them for 6 months to buy "raven", if you are missioner you don't have the choice. Lowsec is no go for missions. Where's the fun? There is no straight progress in professions. Carrot is not working, there are insane amount of ISK in null and null became safer and safer (my last two weeks trip to null, I found 5 (sic!) wormholes total), I did see some movement in there, but not as much I was expected.
Exploration and PI seem to be about the only properly balanced PvE out there (and probably WHs). Leaving highsec for these activities pays almost an order of magnitude or more reward for taking that risk. Missioning outside of highsec (except for perhaps faction warfare missions which also probably pays too much) pays more, but not much more and cannot be done in player sov space. The ratting that is on offer there pays the same as missioning. Why would anyone bother with the associated costs of sovereign space when they can just grind highsec missions or incursions for a similar paycheck?

I'll admit, CCP has a tough balance act. They have clearly chosen a strategy to make highsec players happy in the last five years which maybe the correct business decision, I don't know. But they should not at all act surprised that by giving highsec a comparable income to the rest of the game, nullsec has fallen into stagnation and much of the player-driven conflict has dried up in the game. If players can make an comparable income in total safety in highsec, they are going to do that, leaving less and less targets for everyone.

I hope CCP is able to turn this around, but I fear they may not have the fortitude to do what is necessary to reinvigorate player conflict to the levels it was in the past. Eve will live on as a consensual PvP spaceship game, where almost every player will just grind income in safety in highsec, only leaving for consensual sparring matches in the other spaces. But the big fights and wars will have become a thing of a past era, fondly remembered by a shrinking segment of the player base.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#114 - 2015-10-08 12:56:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

Incursions are absurd. Other aspects of the game in hisec were constantly nerfed.


Ha ha, what? The rest of the game has eaten nerf after nerf over the years, and highsec has remained all but untouched. Heck, when CCP was going to rightly nerf incursions, you lot cried so hard they flip flopped. The last real "nerf" to highsec was removing L5s, and that was a freaking bug fix.

It's long past time that highsec finds out what a nerf feels like.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#115 - 2015-10-08 13:20:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeremiah Saken
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ha ha, what? The rest of the game has eaten nerf after nerf over the years, and highsec has remained all but untouched. Heck, when CCP was going to rightly nerf incursions, you lot cried so hard they flip flopped. The last real "nerf" to highsec was removing L5s, and that was a freaking bug fix.

Buy T1 frigate, put probe scanner and probes on it, udock, scan data or relic site, loot and please tell me how it was. Then try nullsec site.
I tried almost all activities in hi-sec to null-sec spectrum, only hisec missions and incursions (and some DEDs with good drop) pay well. Rest is crap.
Edit: Nerfed is not a good word here. Changed.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#116 - 2015-10-08 13:25:33 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

Buy T1 frigate, put probe scanner and probes on it, udock, scan data or relic site, loot and please tell me how it was.


You... you seriously don't know how this works, do you?

Those are 100% determined by volume, knucklehead.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#117 - 2015-10-08 14:44:46 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

You... you seriously don't know how this works, do you?

Those are 100% determined by volume, knucklehead.

and demand, and changes that was made to exploration since odyssey. You know there were changes, right? Changes that made hisec sites obsolete.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#118 - 2015-10-08 16:32:41 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

You... you seriously don't know how this works, do you?

Those are 100% determined by volume, knucklehead.

and demand, and changes that was made to exploration since odyssey. You know there were changes, right? Changes that made hisec sites obsolete.


The changes did nothing of the sort. The enormous influx of people doing it, on the other hand...

Seriously, if you don't know what you're talking about, just shut up.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#119 - 2015-10-08 20:07:16 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
[quote=Maldiro Selkurk]
.....but should never get rich this way or even be able to PLEX an account.


So even though i play 13+ hours a day about 25 days a week i shouldnt be able to PLEX in highsec...while it is totally possible to plex an account in nullsec or a worm hole in a couple days? (sounds totally fair, propose that to CCP i have ZERO doubt they will nerf my income till no matter how much i play i wont be able to PLEX, you whined before and won, do it again).

Also the rest of the trash you posted is full of possible, maybe, might and a whole lot of other words that indicate you realize that what you are saying is total BS.

There already exists enough reasons to leave highsec for those that want to live the wh, low or nullsec life if some decide to walk the line between these two areas and participate in both thats up to them but the real ISK isnt being made in highsec. You know this to be true because even before incursions were a thing nullsec already had enough ISK to buy a lot of capital ships so no they didnt make their vast income reserves running highsec incursions they made their ISK in nullsec.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#120 - 2015-10-08 20:15:38 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Spice up missions by.....removing the mission briefings. The agent just gives a location and who the mission is against. New missions don't have to be created, you just make it so you don't know what is coming.


How about we make whatever you do a total surprise. If you rat the rats change every 3 mins, if you run plexes you will be given no idea what you need to do to complete it, if you mine moons you have no idea how long you can mine it and still make a profit or even what is on the moon to mine if anything, if you gank, the ships you try and gank will be given random defense buffs that even the pilot doesnt know they have.....

All sounds stupid right because it is.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.