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In Response to Sugar Kyle - Highsec development

First post First post
Author
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#21 - 2015-10-06 14:05:24 UTC
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
I wish CCP would make more missions as the current ones have already been done a million times.

Did you read the blog that Sugar wrote linked in the OP?

She makes some good observations about that.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#22 - 2015-10-06 15:27:01 UTC
Not just in HS, but comet mining.

Comets have Ice as an outer layer, once that is gone there are minerals, once minerals are gone there is moon goo at the core. They have a trail of gas that can be mined as well.

They travel 1000 m/s, can be webbed to slow them down and cause damage over time to any ship near them. Spawns randomly in any system and must be scanned down.
Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#23 - 2015-10-06 15:44:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Otso Bakarti
Ha! Turn high sec into null/low? Yeah, right. PvP-ers traditionally can't find a game they like completely. Invariably, it's because not enough people PvP to satisfy that appetite. THEY ALWAYS (therefore) try to pressure game management into making changes to FORCE other people into their playstyle - or what they're really looking for but cannot find - exclusive PvP. Why? So then there'll be tons of people they can gank*...er....fight.

Here, you can see a group has latched on and is giving it the college try to PUSH this game into a place they couldn't push any OTHER game. Call it: Desperation. Why is there no pure PvP game this late into gaming's lifetime? Because, whether they like it or not, or like to admit it or not, PvP-ers are a MINORITY. No business can stay in business long catering to a minority.

The exception to that rule is "exclusive". However, exclusive is very expensive, and another feature of the average PvP-er is, they don't want to pay. They love EVE 'cause they can pay in PLEX. That, as I don't have to tell EVE's accounting department, is NOT real MONEY. Therefore (once again), it is bad business practice to cater to PvP-ers. Cry about it. Shout about it. Deny it all you want. The math says so.

That being said, were I to suggest something management bothered to CONSIDER, it would be to tighten up the concept of "Sovereignty" by the major factions. If it is THEIR territory it's in their interest to FIGHT crime, not to just react to it. The so-called "carebear" is WHY we keep traffic lanes open. It is WHY we maintain a solid currency and cogent trade practices, AND

It is also why the factions (unless they're insane, or stupid) DON'T BROOK PIRACY IN ANY FORM.


It is a crime that negatively impacts the advancement of their civilization. It is also a crime enemy factions can foment and support to undermine a faction's stability and ability to respond to hostility. SO, this shoot at the criminal then let a timer go off and all is like it never happened crap is counter-intuitive and as incoherent as Dethro Jethro's contribution to culture.

COMMIT AN ACT OF PIRACY IN HIGH SEC AND:

1.) No station can be entered until a hefty fine is paid. (Have your ship blown up by CONCORD and sit outside a station in your pod until you PAY UP. ) Hefty fines. Fines that make a criminal go OUCH! THAT HURT! And, well it should.

2.) Jump gates are property of the states. No criminal can use one. No NONE NEVER. (Until he/she has paid the above mentioned HEFTY FINE.)

3.) Three strikes rule. Three criminal acts in one sovereign territory and the offender is persona non grata. He/she may never enter that faction's space, or use their jump gates ever again as long as their little clone shall live.

4.) Any spamming about it on the forum results in a forum privilege suspension.

Stick that in your ganker pipe and smoke it.

*Gank - To attack someone materially disadvantaged, for a sure kill and lawls;
i.e. someone who effectively has no chance to fight back.

There just isn't anything that can be said!

Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2015-10-06 15:57:43 UTC
Spice up missions by.....removing the mission briefings. The agent just gives a location and who the mission is against. New missions don't have to be created, you just make it so you don't know what is coming.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#25 - 2015-10-06 16:08:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Estella Osoka wrote:
Spice up missions by.....removing the mission briefings. The agent just gives a location and who the mission is against. New missions don't have to be created, you just make it so you don't know what is coming.


That just ends up with everyone using cookie cutter omni-tank fits (and usually missile or drone ships that can select damage on the fly) like wormhole space or incursions. Same goes for when people say "just randomize spawns", it sounds cool, but y7ou end up stifling creativity rather than encouraging it.

On the bright side, people who farm Rattlesnake BPCs would get freaking rich.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#26 - 2015-10-06 16:36:08 UTC
Increase the strength of the faction police to help protect nubbin FW pilots.
Reduce incursion payouts by 50% and replace that faucet somewhere else in game.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-10-06 17:35:33 UTC
Some good observations in the article. There is a fixed population, who has fun in Highsec PvE ....so I propose two measures: 1) make PvE/lore more fun and engaging, and 2) nerf Highsec income into oblivion. There should be no other reason to stay in Highsec than personal fun and security.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Roberta Gastoni
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-10-06 17:40:04 UTC
My 2 Cent on the Topic:

1) Changing High Sec mechanics to turn it into a low sec kind of space is not the way to go. In EvE there are 4 kind of space, High Sec, Low Sec, Null Sec and WH Space, all with their rules and game play style,someone might like them or not, but no one should be entitled to destroy the other players sand box of choice.
I would probably limit the number of active wardecs based on the size of the corporation / alliance that is declaring them, but looking at the new structure mechanics, someone must really bring friends to tear down your citadel. I really want to see the finished work with citadel and capitals before saying more on the topic.

2) Mining and Ice mining in High Sec are really too mechanical, not simply because you point your laser and mine, without any real interaction beside changing asteroid once one is depleted, but because Ore and Ice belts are always in the same spots or systems.
I found it really disappointing too see ice miners fleet multiboxed by someone, camping a system knowing that a certain ice belt will respawn at a certain hour, with a know composition of ice that will be strip mined in minutes. This is not about mutliboxed mining fleet, but it's about something being 100% predictable in a game where the thrill should come from "the great unknown", and not by an alarm clock.

I would really love to see High Sec Ice Belt changing system inside a constellation, with the need of being probed down, a variable quality / quantity of Ice and a proportionate difficulty in scanning them down based on their content, like the Limited Sleeper Caches are at the moment in high sec.

In terms of developement time I don't think it would take a lot, and still will make mining more active and nomadic, less bot aspirant, like some people would say.

3) Standing and LP store are too generic, the average mission runner do not really feel the need of changing system or corporation once they have found a decent L4 agent with a LP store offering a good LP/ISK conversion. For those not really into mission, there are mainly 3 kind of LP store inside every major empire faction, with some differences, but rarely enough to justify you dropping everything and moving to somewhere else. Not to mention, hauling everything you have into a freighter to move out is rarely a good idea.
My idea would be to:

-- a) Slim down and make more specific LP stores, themed with the corp you are working with. At the moment I see LP stores ranging from 137 items (Garuon Investment Bank) to 312 items (Federation Navy), while the Gallente Federation has 31 corps to run missions with. Give a tiny pool of common items (stat implants, charters and such) to everyone and then make specific LP stores.
-- b) Give standing toward a corp a real meaning, gate some of the rewards with reputation and balance their cost accordingly. I'm not sure, but I think that's already a Faction Warfare LP store thing. I would also say remove or consolidate faction tags for LP, but I'm not sure about the first option myself, I'm totally in favour of the second due to simplicity sake.
-- c) Make standing cappable, without diminishing standing increase (or decrease) the higher you go. This should helps the people to enter in the mindset of "I'm done here" and move on, and this should mix well with the LP store changes.

These are the 3 things I would change, and I wouldn't mind some more epic arcs for the other empires (see Khanid, Intaki Syndicate and Ammatar)
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#29 - 2015-10-06 18:17:58 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Increase the strength of the faction police to help protect nubbin FW pilots.
Reduce incursion payouts by 50% and replace that faucet somewhere else in game.


Working towards that goal.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#30 - 2015-10-06 18:28:33 UTC
Sugar Kyle wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Increase the strength of the faction police to help protect nubbin FW pilots.
Reduce incursion payouts by 50% and replace that faucet somewhere else in game.


Working towards that goal.


Which goal, Faction police or incursions?
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#31 - 2015-10-06 18:37:07 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Increase the strength of the faction police to help protect nubbin FW pilots.
Reduce incursion payouts by 50% and replace that faucet somewhere else in game.


Working towards that goal.


Which goal, Faction police or incursions?

that goal P

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#32 - 2015-10-06 18:37:16 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Downgraded systems between all major factions so you cannot move between Caldari and Amarr space without passing a lowsec system.


Highsec players would rebalance the game, with the local market becoming basically the only one, Jita would fade if not die entirely and highsec players would keep doing what we do and thats avoid low and nullsec and in the end this would be a huge waste of programming time.

The only true outcome is that highsec players would now become almost absolutely committed to whatever racial space they play in and that isnt fun or interesting game play its just, "annoying highsec to annoy highsec".

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#33 - 2015-10-06 18:47:30 UTC
Sugar Kyle wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Increase the strength of the faction police to help protect nubbin FW pilots.
Reduce incursion payouts by 50% and replace that faucet somewhere else in game.


Working towards that goal.


Even as a dedicated defender of highsec needs and desires the rate of pay for incursions is too high even given that coordination is required to do them. Id like incursions in highsec space to be more like a training ground for how to function in a fleet than an ISK goldmine that draws players even from wh, low and nullsec because it pays so much with so little actual risk.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2015-10-06 18:59:46 UTC
Do Little wrote:
At the extremes we have PVP players arguing that highsec is too safe, they see a target rich environment and want easier access - forgetting that those targets are paying subscribers who have just as much right to enjoy the game as anyone else. Then we have carebears who argue it's too dangerous, non-consensual PVP should be restricted to low or nullsec - forgetting that if you remove the risk, you also remove the reward. I believe the playing field is tilted in favor of PVP at the moment, penalties for ganking are minor and choke point systems provide a steady supply of victims but I freely admit my opinion is biased!

So, what would I like to change that, hopefully, doesn't require a massive amount of development effort? Actually, not much. As a hauler, I would like to see Vecamia and Olettiers upgraded to 0.5 creating alternate routes between trade hubs. As a builder I would like to see loot drops restricted to salvage, components and blueprints - everything else should be player built.

I think the best thing CCP can do is continue to improve opportunities for builders in nullsec - give highsec industrialists incentive to move.


Like your approach. The issue of highsec, I approach it as lacking challenge, not being too safe. The demographic that enjoys it can have it "less safe" but be made more attractive to their playstyle without stopping what eve is about. Nullsec does offer opportunities, but the issue is that for industry types and pve peeps, the step is too great. An intermediate change making lowsec more attractive to small groups will bring them there where they can then make the step to null. Problem is lowsec isnt some frontier full of riches, it is just a wasteland.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#35 - 2015-10-06 19:03:57 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Spice up missions by.....removing the mission briefings. The agent just gives a location and who the mission is against. New missions don't have to be created, you just make it so you don't know what is coming.


That just ends up with everyone using cookie cutter omni-tank fits (and usually missile or drone ships that can select damage on the fly) like wormhole space or incursions. Same goes for when people say "just randomize spawns", it sounds cool, but y7ou end up stifling creativity rather than encouraging it.

On the bright side, people who farm Rattlesnake BPCs would get freaking rich.


Or people will start using Mobile Depots and refit on the fly.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#36 - 2015-10-06 19:04:34 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Some good observations in the article. There is a fixed population, who has fun in Highsec PvE ....so I propose two measures: 1) make PvE/lore more fun and engaging, and 2) nerf Highsec income into oblivion. There should be no other reason to stay in Highsec than personal fun and security.


While i do think that a couple of activities in highsec need an income nerf and highsec PI needs a buff, nerfing highsec income into oblivion will have a consequence you are not going to like.

There is a belief that if you make highsec poor enough, if you make highsec boring enough, if you make highsec miserable enough then highsec players will leave highsec and on this point you are absolutely correct but we won't be leaving for wh, low or nullsec space we will be leaving EVE.

Glad to see us go?

You wont be when CCP decides it doesnt have the financial backing it needs to further develop EVE because too many highsec players quit and EVE goes free to play and along with it any further development on the game.

Lets hope that CCP isnt completely blind to its need for highsec players to keep paying a significant portion of the bills.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#37 - 2015-10-06 19:13:44 UTC
I think there are enough jump freighters that jita would stay important, but it would probably improve any of the smaller regional hubs.

I think my biggest wish for if that kind of thing happened would be making alternate routes viable. Avoiding Niarja turns jita -> amarr into a 23 jump route on shortest, having a few 12 jump routes that go through a few lowsec systems would be more interesting I think.

that said it does sound like an annoy highsec to annoy highsec move. and Imo it doesn't change too much, just need to jump in a travel ship and setup some bookmarks.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#38 - 2015-10-06 19:14:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
The answer is......we dont need anything.


We b**ch when we get ganked, that's about it really.


All the calls for change come basically from nullsec and most of those requests revolve around making nullsec more secure for the current inhabitants or making highsec into nullsec so highsec can be just as lame as nullsec.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Zihao
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2015-10-06 19:24:31 UTC
Ima GoodGirl wrote:

So if you had a chance to redesign/introduce one substantial thing in highsec, what would it be and how would it improve the game?


Remove war immunity, balance wardecs as needed from there if things get out of hand. This eliminates the corner-stone problem of empire space: that the risk/reward paradigm is skewed because under NPC corp, without a very expensive ship, one is operating at approximately zero risk.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#40 - 2015-10-06 19:32:14 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

While i do think that a couple of activities in highsec need an income nerf and highsec PI needs a buff, nerfing highsec income into oblivion will have a consequence you are not going to like.

There is a belief that if you make highsec poor enough, if you make highsec boring enough, if you make highsec miserable enough then highsec players will leave highsec and on this point you are absolutely correct but we won't be leaving for wh, low or nullsec space we will be leaving EVE.

Glad to see us go?

You wont be when CCP decides it doesnt have the financial backing it needs to further develop EVE because too many highsec players quit and EVE goes free to play and along with it any further development on the game.

Let's hope that CCP isnt completely blind to its need for highsec players to keep paying a significant portion of the bills.

That is not the belief. The goal is that by restoring risk vs. reward, players will not be drawn back to highsec to run incursions in safety leaving the other spaces to languish.

There are some players that will never leave highsec. But there are many more that would venture out given the right incentive, or already do leave to engage in PvP but prefer to return earn an income in highsec because it is so much safer and easier. They are the ones clamping down on the highsec income faucet may influence.

Slashing highsec payouts, at least on the highend (L3/L4s, incursions) will encourage those that are comfortable to go back to the other spaces, and will perhaps encourage the more brave newer players to leave highsec to chase increased rewards. The other, full-on risk-averse players can stay behind, shooting red crosses or rocks for enough ISK to gradually upgrade that ship that they never lose, but should never get rich this way or even be able to PLEX an account. That should only be possible by exposing yourself to the risk of other players interfering with your resource generation thus offering yourself as content for the other players in this game.

I have no problem with CCP spending as much time and development resources as they think valuable on producing fun content for highsec themeparkers. The payouts of this content however cannot continue to have such a distorting effect on the economy that everyone and their uncle uses a highsec alt to make a living. The other spaces are suffering for it, and there will be no hope of reinvigorating nullsec if there is no economic reason for players or groups of players to ever leave the safety of highsec.