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[December] Missile Disruptors and Tweaks to Missile Guidance Mods

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Author
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#361 - 2015-10-11 19:13:19 UTC
Yadaryon Vondawn wrote:
Question, why not have one module? The current Disruptors, but with this added functionality. Or a missile script. Especially if you are going for solo PVP I imagine this is a bit weird. You fit one module for all turrets, except for missiles. Now you have to choose which disruptor module to fit. All other EWAR is 'across the board', why is this designed for missiles only?

I see how it creates fitting options and more choices but I am genuinely interested in the thought process behind creating a new module for this :)

Because if it blocked all weapons it would be an auto "I win!" module. Like if you combined the eccm module effect with SEBO's and now you counter Damps and ECM. or maybe fix warp stabs to also counter webs..
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#362 - 2015-10-11 19:18:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Poranius Fisc
Ransu Asanari wrote:
I've expected to see these for a while, and generally I'm in favor of them.

I do wonder why you've chosen to give this new EWAR ability to Amarr however - yes it fits alongside Tracking Disruptors, but Amarr already get Tracking Disruption and Energy Neutralizers as a primary and secondary EWAR on their class ships. So now they're going to have Missile Disruption as well?

Caldari ships only get ECM and... ECM. That's it - they have no secondary EWAR capability on their Electronic Attack Ships, or Recon Ships.

Unless you are also planning on introducing a drone counter EWAR system, would it not make more sense to give this ability to Caldari ships? I understand that may take more work to revamp all of the ships, but if an ECM rebalance is in the works anyway, logically it would make sense to give drone and missile EWAR to Caldari ships.

I've outlined a bit more detail on this here, and I believe Corbexx may have sent it your way:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3itkns/rogue_drone_battleship_grasping_robot_arms_have/cuke0v4

that they might have to look at ewar modules and balancing those and making a pass at ewar balancing.

That is going to bring a lot of positive/negative feedback when they.. i.e. if they add those in, they might actually have to make ecm one module and boost the multispectral ecm to current levels of the other ecm types to make it equal to other current ewar, instead of having to pack 6 for a rainbow fit on a falcon/scorpion and use a single plate for tank.
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#363 - 2015-10-11 20:33:06 UTC
Koshka narkotikov wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Yadaryon Vondawn wrote:
Question, why not have one module? The current Disruptors, but with this added functionality. Or a missile script. Especially if you are going for solo PVP I imagine this is a bit weird. You fit one module for all turrets, except for missiles. Now you have to choose which disruptor module to fit. All other EWAR is 'across the board', why is this designed for missiles only?

I see how it creates fitting options and more choices but I am genuinely interested in the thought proces behind creating a new module for this :)


I like separate modules. Otherwise one ship can defend against any threat with a single mod. At least you have to choose the mod and cant just blanket every circumstance. Course mobile depots will work around this, but at least you cant change mid fight.

Welp, its going to be sentinels, crucifiers, arbitrator, curse/pilgrim online after this. Like LS needs more of these flying around. Indirect drone buff as theyre the only weapon system that doesnt have an ewar counter.

Will adapt as usual, but heavies are going to be even more useless except in niche scenarios.


So you mean they would work like every other form of ecm where they work no matter what on every ship? Even ecm matched against the incorrect sensor type still has a chance to jam even if a low one.

Id much rather see this as a script since as it is tracking disrupting is by far the most inflexible of the ecm variants.

than you want to make it chance based like ecm? can the other ewartypes also be matched based as well than? play the RNG game. It gets annoying with them faction cruisers that have stronger sensors than T1 BC's.
Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#364 - 2015-10-12 20:13:48 UTC
Poranius Fisc wrote:
Koshka narkotikov wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Yadaryon Vondawn wrote:
Question, why not have one module? The current Disruptors, but with this added functionality. Or a missile script. Especially if you are going for solo PVP I imagine this is a bit weird. You fit one module for all turrets, except for missiles. Now you have to choose which disruptor module to fit. All other EWAR is 'across the board', why is this designed for missiles only?

I see how it creates fitting options and more choices but I am genuinely interested in the thought proces behind creating a new module for this :)


I like separate modules. Otherwise one ship can defend against any threat with a single mod. At least you have to choose the mod and cant just blanket every circumstance. Course mobile depots will work around this, but at least you cant change mid fight.

Welp, its going to be sentinels, crucifiers, arbitrator, curse/pilgrim online after this. Like LS needs more of these flying around. Indirect drone buff as theyre the only weapon system that doesnt have an ewar counter.

Will adapt as usual, but heavies are going to be even more useless except in niche scenarios.


So you mean they would work like every other form of ecm where they work no matter what on every ship? Even ecm matched against the incorrect sensor type still has a chance to jam even if a low one.

Id much rather see this as a script since as it is tracking disrupting is by far the most inflexible of the ecm variants.

than you want to make it chance based like ecm? can the other ewartypes also be matched based as well than? play the RNG game. It gets annoying with them faction cruisers that have stronger sensors than T1 BC's.


I think he means like every other Ewar, in which case he is correct. Every ewar except Tracking computers and these new modules work on every ship in the game that isnt ewar immune. It would be a massive oversight in balancing its actual usefulness if you needed diffrent mods. And the simple solution to the number one complaint here (that all ships will fit a Weapon disruptor) is that you debonus the module and add bonuses to the hull to compensate.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#365 - 2015-10-12 22:36:21 UTC
Poranius Fisc wrote:
Yadaryon Vondawn wrote:
Question, why not have one module? The current Disruptors, but with this added functionality. Or a missile script. Especially if you are going for solo PVP I imagine this is a bit weird. You fit one module for all turrets, except for missiles. Now you have to choose which disruptor module to fit. All other EWAR is 'across the board', why is this designed for missiles only?

I see how it creates fitting options and more choices but I am genuinely interested in the thought process behind creating a new module for this :)

Because if it blocked all weapons it would be an auto "I win!" module. Like if you combined the eccm module effect with SEBO's and now you counter Damps and ECM. or maybe fix warp stabs to also counter webs..


Well No. Ecm and damps are completely different. Ecm is a chanced based lock breaker while damps lessen your lock range/speed. Tracking disrupters should be used to reduce the effectiveness of a hostile ships weapons.

Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#366 - 2015-10-13 16:41:22 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Poranius Fisc wrote:
Yadaryon Vondawn wrote:
Question, why not have one module? The current Disruptors, but with this added functionality. Or a missile script. Especially if you are going for solo PVP I imagine this is a bit weird. You fit one module for all turrets, except for missiles. Now you have to choose which disruptor module to fit. All other EWAR is 'across the board', why is this designed for missiles only?

I see how it creates fitting options and more choices but I am genuinely interested in the thought process behind creating a new module for this :)

Because if it blocked all weapons it would be an auto "I win!" module. Like if you combined the eccm module effect with SEBO's and now you counter Damps and ECM. or maybe fix warp stabs to also counter webs..


Well No. Ecm and damps are completely different. Ecm is a chanced based lock breaker while damps lessen your lock range/speed. Tracking disrupters should be used to reduce the effectiveness of a hostile ships weapons.



TRACKING disrupters reduce the effectiveness of a hostile ships TRACKING, a missiles that explode dont track anything and fuel/speed for the missile dont need any tracking either
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#367 - 2015-10-13 17:45:43 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Poranius Fisc wrote:
Yadaryon Vondawn wrote:
Question, why not have one module? The current Disruptors, but with this added functionality. Or a missile script. Especially if you are going for solo PVP I imagine this is a bit weird. You fit one module for all turrets, except for missiles. Now you have to choose which disruptor module to fit. All other EWAR is 'across the board', why is this designed for missiles only?

I see how it creates fitting options and more choices but I am genuinely interested in the thought process behind creating a new module for this :)

Because if it blocked all weapons it would be an auto "I win!" module. Like if you combined the eccm module effect with SEBO's and now you counter Damps and ECM. or maybe fix warp stabs to also counter webs..


Well No. Ecm and damps are completely different. Ecm is a chanced based lock breaker while damps lessen your lock range/speed. Tracking disrupters should be used to reduce the effectiveness of a hostile ships weapons.



TRACKING disrupters reduce the effectiveness of a hostile ships TRACKING, a missiles that explode dont track anything and fuel/speed for the missile dont need any tracking either



which is why the new mod for missiles is called missile disruption and only effect missiles that are launched with the mod acting on the ship. The mod wont affect missile already in space.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#368 - 2015-10-13 17:57:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Yeah i think i am on board with the separate mods now. It would probably be too op if it was one mod that disrupts all weapons.

ECM - Is balanced by being racial specific
Damps - range damps can be mitigated by getting close to the target
Tracking/missile disruption - will be balanced by bringing alternative weapon system

Seems fine.
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#369 - 2015-10-13 22:25:10 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Kiki Abraxas wrote:
why not fix things that are broken such as sov mechanics :) and then go back to adding new ****



Sometimes I think that people just don't understand that not all development is created equal.


I just want to throw this out.. in a rare case, you could have a frigate gang running around with a couple of these and totally cripple battleships from bieng able to do anything. It can even make a marauder with its bonus to TP's moot if done wrong.

I forsee lots of ravens burning from this.

How much of the missile guidance module buff comes from this vs the hasty release?

Will the use of a tracking computer mitigate this as well as a Sebo does a Damp?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#370 - 2015-10-14 03:54:58 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Poranius Fisc wrote:
Yadaryon Vondawn wrote:
Question, why not have one module? The current Disruptors, but with this added functionality. Or a missile script. Especially if you are going for solo PVP I imagine this is a bit weird. You fit one module for all turrets, except for missiles. Now you have to choose which disruptor module to fit. All other EWAR is 'across the board', why is this designed for missiles only?

I see how it creates fitting options and more choices but I am genuinely interested in the thought process behind creating a new module for this :)

Because if it blocked all weapons it would be an auto "I win!" module. Like if you combined the eccm module effect with SEBO's and now you counter Damps and ECM. or maybe fix warp stabs to also counter webs..


Well No. Ecm and damps are completely different. Ecm is a chanced based lock breaker while damps lessen your lock range/speed. Tracking disrupters should be used to reduce the effectiveness of a hostile ships weapons.



TRACKING disrupters reduce the effectiveness of a hostile ships TRACKING, a missiles that explode dont track anything and fuel/speed for the missile dont need any tracking either

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_guidance

Quote:
In every Go-Onto-Target system there are three subsystems:

Target tracker
Missile tracker
Guidance computer

I have a nice little post a few pages back with explanation of you like.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#371 - 2015-10-14 04:10:33 UTC
Poranius Fisc wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Kiki Abraxas wrote:
why not fix things that are broken such as sov mechanics :) and then go back to adding new ****



Sometimes I think that people just don't understand that not all development is created equal.


I just want to throw this out.. in a rare case, you could have a frigate gang running around with a couple of these and totally cripple battleships from bieng able to do anything. It can even make a marauder with its bonus to TP's moot if done wrong.

I forsee lots of ravens burning from this.

How much of the missile guidance module buff comes from this vs the hasty release?

Will the use of a tracking computer mitigate this as well as a Sebo does a Damp?



marauders are immune to ewar (well they can be) so no marauder is going to care about it just like they dont care about TC/damps/ecm
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#372 - 2015-10-14 05:47:57 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Haatakan Reppola wrote:


TRACKING disrupters reduce the effectiveness of a hostile ships TRACKING, a missiles that explode dont track anything and fuel/speed for the missile dont need any tracking either

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_guidance

Quote:
In every Go-Onto-Target system there are three subsystems:

Target tracker
Missile tracker
Guidance computer

I have a nice little post a few pages back with explanation of you like.


All these are used to make the missile hit the target, since missiles always hit when in range (ingame) we can ignore those 3 things.
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#373 - 2015-10-14 05:51:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Poranius Fisc
Lady Rift wrote:
Poranius Fisc wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Kiki Abraxas wrote:
why not fix things that are broken such as sov mechanics :) and then go back to adding new ****



Sometimes I think that people just don't understand that not all development is created equal.


I just want to throw this out.. in a rare case, you could have a frigate gang running around with a couple of these and totally cripple battleships from bieng able to do anything. It can even make a marauder with its bonus to TP's moot if done wrong.

I forsee lots of ravens burning from this.

How much of the missile guidance module buff comes from this vs the hasty release?

Will the use of a tracking computer mitigate this as well as a Sebo does a Damp?



marauders are immune to ewar (well they can be) so no marauder is going to care about it just like they dont care about TC/damps/ecm

if you go bastion and leave yourself stuck.
I meant in terms of the Golems bonus to TP's to deal damage, which is still in open discussion that it takes a golem 3 tp's to hit exceptionally anything frigate sized.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#374 - 2015-10-14 06:44:46 UTC
Poranius Fisc wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
Poranius Fisc wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Kiki Abraxas wrote:
why not fix things that are broken such as sov mechanics :) and then go back to adding new ****



Sometimes I think that people just don't understand that not all development is created equal.


I just want to throw this out.. in a rare case, you could have a frigate gang running around with a couple of these and totally cripple battleships from bieng able to do anything. It can even make a marauder with its bonus to TP's moot if done wrong.

I forsee lots of ravens burning from this.

How much of the missile guidance module buff comes from this vs the hasty release?

Will the use of a tracking computer mitigate this as well as a Sebo does a Damp?



marauders are immune to ewar (well they can be) so no marauder is going to care about it just like they dont care about TC/damps/ecm

if you go bastion and leave yourself stuck.
I meant in terms of the Golems bonus to TP's to deal damage, which is still in open discussion that it takes a golem 3 tp's to hit exceptionally anything frigate sized.



shouldnt be that bad with cruse and those tps will massively help your drones.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#375 - 2015-10-14 14:13:41 UTC
You know, I'm convinced. Earlier I sided with people saying they wanted all this in one mod, but a lot of good points were made that if this were a scripted module, it'd be OP. It would be.

ECM is still an outlier, but only because every single facet of ECM is terrible. Need to devote a bunch of mids to rainbow (on a predominantly shield-based race, no less!), RNG-based mechanic, etc.

I see a lot of people voicing concerns over these modules and I see the root of the problem being missile mechanics. Can't have good missiles because missiles always hit, and that makes balancing missiles a b-----. That we have weapons in this game that provide something different than turrets is a good thing, but missiles as they currently are, are not fit to the game well. The game really shines with the complexity and skillful use of turrets, and falls flat with missiles. Missiles as a system need to be overhauled in their entirety before they well and truly work well within this game. Maybe give them a falloff area where there's a genuine % chance of miss? I don't know. But missiles are going to continue to be a sore spot and neigh-impossible to balance well for the foreseeable future.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#376 - 2015-10-14 14:42:35 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:
You know, I'm convinced. Earlier I sided with people saying they wanted all this in one mod, but a lot of good points were made that if this were a scripted module, it'd be OP. It would be.

ECM is still an outlier, but only because every single facet of ECM is terrible. Need to devote a bunch of mids to rainbow (on a predominantly shield-based race, no less!), RNG-based mechanic, etc.

I see a lot of people voicing concerns over these modules and I see the root of the problem being missile mechanics. Can't have good missiles because missiles always hit, and that makes balancing missiles a b-----. That we have weapons in this game that provide something different than turrets is a good thing, but missiles as they currently are, are not fit to the game well. The game really shines with the complexity and skillful use of turrets, and falls flat with missiles. Missiles as a system need to be overhauled in their entirety before they well and truly work well within this game. Maybe give them a falloff area where there's a genuine % chance of miss? I don't know. But missiles are going to continue to be a sore spot and neigh-impossible to balance well for the foreseeable future.


Every time they add modifier like those disruptor to the equation of missile balancing it makes the damn thing even more of a clusterfuck to balance.
Zakks
CSR NAVY
Citizen's Star Republic
#377 - 2015-10-15 01:18:14 UTC
RL missiles are countered in a number of different ways. From stealth (unable to lock or 'home' the missile), to chaff and flares, or to various intercepting techniques. Understandably Eve cannot have that level of complexity, but I do like that this is an active module and offers some form of electronic counter to the missile weapon systems.

That said I think it goes a little too far and will make missiles virtually useless. Invariably it can also be seen as a buff to drones at a time that they were being reigned in. The defender missiles would have made an excellent anti-drone weapons choice.

Oh well, I'm still early in my training and can choose where to put my ISK. Drones seem the best choice for my money.
Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#378 - 2015-10-15 03:03:53 UTC
This is just a blurb attempting to explain some major differences in missile theory and why "hard scifi" generally does things the way they do. Hopefully it will explain why interfering with the ship is more likely than actually messing directly with the missiles.

On a planetary body missiles eventually cap out in size as technology advances. Once you have a powerplant capable of traveling the diameter of the planet you dont really need more range. Thus you can design missiles to be self contained "smart" weapons as you miniaturize the power system. Maximum size is always a concern however because of atmospheric flight issues and the fact that you have a gravity well. Navigation is also considerably easier as you have a fixed body to run any positioning by.

In space... all these tricks go away and mass of missiles is no longer a significant concern. This is a massively radical shift in both methods and technology needed. This is furthur compounded by the fact that a ship will always have superior sensors, computers, and telemetry than a missile. Generally in a space situation the firing ship would become the "anchor" for navigation purposes. The ships superior optics and sensors would become the eyes on the long trip to the target. All the missile has to do is maintain link with its ship and accelerate like mad. Once its limited optics and computer systems is within range to be effective youd only have seconds left anyway.

Thus in many ways a missile in space will most likely have more in common with a "fly by wire" missile system than it does with an actual smart weapon on earth today. The majority of its flight will be controlled by the ship that launched it until it can acquire its target itself.

Thus.. as in most hard scifi.. the means to stop yourself from getting hit revolve around making the ship harder to acquire(signature) and screwing with the telemetry systems of the firing ship(disruptors). The eve universe carries on this tradition of jam the ship not the missile in lore. It seems weird but it actually has foundations in logic and design theory. Space changes many of the ways you look at doing things.
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#379 - 2015-10-15 22:41:38 UTC
Zakks wrote:
RL missiles are countered in a number of different ways. From stealth (unable to lock or 'home' the missile), to chaff and flares, or to various intercepting techniques. Understandably Eve cannot have that level of complexity, but I do like that this is an active module and offers some form of electronic counter to the missile weapon systems.

That said I think it goes a little too far and will make missiles virtually useless. Invariably it can also be seen as a buff to drones at a time that they were being reigned in. The defender missiles would have made an excellent anti-drone weapons choice.

Oh well, I'm still early in my training and can choose where to put my ISK. Drones seem the best choice for my money.

Auto missiles.. which are not all that intuitive. Yup. drones are only done in by shooting them down, which also only works with missiles which can be "firewalled" like drones and shot down using defender missiles.

I rally haven't seen much talk about the new missile guidance computers.. it looks like fit for fir the TP's still win (except at long ranges, that missiles do not really see much use (from what I've seen, constant blasts to the pheonix as its a "poco basher").
Resinball
Order of the Amarrian Templars
Job's Done.
#380 - 2015-10-16 03:08:05 UTC
need to buff their damage if your going to make them target disrupt-able.

not powerful enough due to the fact it's the only system that requires time to hit the target.....