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All new characters will now start with ~400,000 skillpoints
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Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#61 - 2015-09-25 09:48:27 UTC
widgetman wrote:
You can give new players 20 mill sp , or even 50 mill sp.....it is knowledge of the game that will still not help them .....

Yep, exactly. This is an alt thing, does nothing for actual newbies. Fail with the npe and throwing SP around will make things better?
dumb

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Captain Awkward
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2015-09-25 09:50:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Awkward
Glathull wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
I mean I really don't care about the SP, it's only... what, two weeks worth? I just don't see how this will change anything about the new player experience.


It won't. The more that's given away for free, the less choices new players are allowed to make. Eventually that will start to make them whine. We already have purists of every kind who don't want that one rank in ${whatever}. Now we're just going to hear more of that from the ones who stick around.


The skills given are no choices. Its not like the decisions to train for T2 frigs or go for bigger guns or to go for logi.

Those are basis skills you allways need and it does in no way hurt to have.
Niriel Greez
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2015-09-25 10:18:17 UTC
Johnny Riko wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:

Well, exactly. I know you're going to produce some figures that contradict what I'm saying, but it does seem unfair to hand over the SPs to them on a plate. I for one would love to put those free SPs into the PI tree (which I will never train on my own!)!

It's only unfair to those new players who don't get the skills from the start. You already have them. That's why they get the SP and you do not. Blink

Get your own planets on your own time, dammit.


We paid 1-2 weeks worth of subscription to train those skills, now they are given to new players for free. How is that fair?

Typical "help the nubs, screw the vets" game developer mentality.


Are you ********?

By helping the noobs, you help the vets. I don't think you have noticed the lack of 'noobs' around lately, and the lack of content this creates in a game that relies entirely on other players for its content.

These changes are what EVE needs (this is a good start, but 3-4M SP for new players wouldn't hurt either). As it stands now, a new player's only realistic option currently to stand a chance outside of blobs is grind, buy character from bazaar. Personally, I would like to see a good chunk of the core skills completely removed so you can focus on training fun things right away.
Avvy
Doomheim
#64 - 2015-09-25 10:27:51 UTC
Niriel Greez wrote:
Johnny Riko wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:

Well, exactly. I know you're going to produce some figures that contradict what I'm saying, but it does seem unfair to hand over the SPs to them on a plate. I for one would love to put those free SPs into the PI tree (which I will never train on my own!)!

It's only unfair to those new players who don't get the skills from the start. You already have them. That's why they get the SP and you do not. Blink

Get your own planets on your own time, dammit.


We paid 1-2 weeks worth of subscription to train those skills, now they are given to new players for free. How is that fair?

Typical "help the nubs, screw the vets" game developer mentality.


Are you ********?

By helping the noobs, you help the vets. I don't think you have noticed the lack of 'noobs' around lately, and the lack of content this creates in a game that relies entirely on other players for its content.

These changes are what EVE needs (this is a good start, but 3-4M SP for new players wouldn't hurt either). As it stands now, a new player's only realistic option currently to stand a chance outside of blobs is grind, buy character from bazaar. Personally, I would like to see a good chunk of the core skills completely removed so you can focus on training fun things right away.


Might be because games like GW2 also have F2P elements to them now. Competition from other games is part of the problem and those games make it easy to just log in and play. EVE is an older style character building game (long time character building) which are the kind of games which I used to like. But that style of game is getting old and part of why EVE is destined to be just in a niche market, without radical changes you can't expect anything else.
Rufelza
Widowmakers
#65 - 2015-09-25 11:03:35 UTC
Rather than giving new characters free skill points they should remove half a millions worth of fitting skills from the game and while they are at it remove all the stat bonuses from implants as this only favours richer players.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#66 - 2015-09-25 11:05:07 UTC
Why not just remove skills entirely at that point?
Rufelza
Widowmakers
#67 - 2015-09-25 11:09:37 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Why not just remove skills entirely at that point?


The designer wanting to break that stupid law (Malcanis's?) should be looking at folding away as many skills as possible rather than adding new skills to the game. Seems backwards but if you want to creat a more fun game and help level the playing field then this is what you need to do.

One of the perceived blocks to joining a game is the skill point imbalance and obviously CCP (marketing) want to try to address this point.
Niriel Greez
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2015-09-25 11:20:23 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Niriel Greez wrote:
Johnny Riko wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:

Well, exactly. I know you're going to produce some figures that contradict what I'm saying, but it does seem unfair to hand over the SPs to them on a plate. I for one would love to put those free SPs into the PI tree (which I will never train on my own!)!

It's only unfair to those new players who don't get the skills from the start. You already have them. That's why they get the SP and you do not. Blink

Get your own planets on your own time, dammit.


We paid 1-2 weeks worth of subscription to train those skills, now they are given to new players for free. How is that fair?

Typical "help the nubs, screw the vets" game developer mentality.


Are you ********?

By helping the noobs, you help the vets. I don't think you have noticed the lack of 'noobs' around lately, and the lack of content this creates in a game that relies entirely on other players for its content.

These changes are what EVE needs (this is a good start, but 3-4M SP for new players wouldn't hurt either). As it stands now, a new player's only realistic option currently to stand a chance outside of blobs is grind, buy character from bazaar. Personally, I would like to see a good chunk of the core skills completely removed so you can focus on training fun things right away.


Might be because games like GW2 also have F2P elements to them now. Competition from other games is part of the problem and those games make it easy to just log in and play. EVE is an older style character building game (long time character building) which are the kind of games which I used to like. But that style of game is getting old and part of why EVE is destined to be just in a niche market, without radical changes you can't expect anything else.


And EVE shouldn't change in that regard.

But with every year that passes, the barrier for entry becomes harder for new players. Which is why it's important to keep balancing said barrier.

If EVE's gameplay only appeals to one in ten people who try the game, that's fine - but if 90% of those 'one in ten' don't even stick around because the barrier for entry has become so ridiculous, then you get what we currently have and that, is a huge problem.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#69 - 2015-09-25 11:28:01 UTC
Avvy wrote:


Might be because games like GW2 also have F2P elements to them now. Competition from other games is part of the problem and those games make it easy to just log in and play. EVE is an older style character building game (long time character building) which are the kind of games which I used to like. But that style of game is getting old and part of why EVE is destined to be just in a niche market, without radical changes you can't expect anything else.

And GW2 is a ghost town for it. I played the first year, and last I saw they combined all players onto one server and still couldn't hardly fill a zone.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#70 - 2015-09-25 12:10:48 UTC
Niriel Greez wrote:
And EVE shouldn't change in that regard.

But with every year that passes, the barrier for entry becomes harder for new players. Which is why it's important to keep balancing said barrier.
Close, but not quite.

Every year that passes, the barrier looks higher because new players who aren't familiar with the skill system see how much total SP others have accumulated and think they have to match that, somehow. In truth, the barrier — if it exists at all — is constant. What this change does is primarily to remove all waiting time that was previously built into the tutorials, with some added combat preparedness for good measure. It's not even a week worth of training, but it is a week worth of actually sensible skills rather than the random confused jumble that might otherwise arise from that week.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#71 - 2015-09-25 12:26:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Niriel Greez wrote:
And EVE shouldn't change in that regard.

But with every year that passes, the barrier for entry becomes harder for new players. Which is why it's important to keep balancing said barrier.
Close, but not quite.

Every year that passes, the barrier looks higher because new players who aren't familiar with the skill system see how much total SP others have accumulated and think they have to match that, somehow. In truth, the barrier — if it exists at all — is constant. What this change does is primarily to remove all waiting time that was previously built into the tutorials, with some added combat preparedness for good measure. It's not even a week worth of training, but it is a week worth of actually sensible skills rather than the random confused jumble that might otherwise arise from that week.


As long as it's dumped into generic/support skills rather than racial ones I'm fine with it, wouldn't want to "have to" tell rookies "well you better reroll because you want to fly another faction, it just makes more sense that way".
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#72 - 2015-09-25 12:34:01 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Niriel Greez wrote:
And EVE shouldn't change in that regard.

But with every year that passes, the barrier for entry becomes harder for new players. Which is why it's important to keep balancing said barrier.
Close, but not quite.

Every year that passes, the barrier looks higher because new players who aren't familiar with the skill system see how much total SP others have accumulated and think they have to match that, somehow. In truth, the barrier — if it exists at all — is constant. What this change does is primarily to remove all waiting time that was previously built into the tutorials, with some added combat preparedness for good measure. It's not even a week worth of training, but it is a week worth of actually sensible skills rather than the random confused jumble that might otherwise arise from that week.

Some of the skills aren't very sensible though. You can't do much with drones 1 and missle launcher op is, I think, useless by itself. It is better though than the current empty set.

I started with the old professions system and liked it but the alt benefit problem was there. I see why they went this way though, easy to code and does benefit the NPE. I always thought teaching the game through the tutorials with instant skill book rewards would be a better way to get past the confusion of the skill system, plus work well with getting players from "quest" based games into Eve easier.

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Captain Awkward
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2015-09-25 12:53:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Awkward
Tippia wrote:
Niriel Greez wrote:
And EVE shouldn't change in that regard.

But with every year that passes, the barrier for entry becomes harder for new players. Which is why it's important to keep balancing said barrier.
Close, but not quite.

Every year that passes, the barrier looks higher because new players who aren't familiar with the skill system see how much total SP others have accumulated and think they have to match that, somehow. In truth, the barrier — if it exists at all — is constant. What this change does is primarily to remove all waiting time that was previously built into the tutorials, with some added combat preparedness for good measure. It's not even a week worth of training, but it is a week worth of actually sensible skills rather than the random confused jumble that might otherwise arise from that week.


Indeed.

New players often loot stuff from the first wrecks they find and want to try out that afterburner, MWD, target paiter or heat sink (it does not matter how stupid it is to put a heat sink on a missile ship) and then they learn that they have to buy the skill books for each of those new things in the first place AND wait some minutes untill it is trained to level 1.

This change get rid of a good portion of it.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#74 - 2015-09-25 13:23:42 UTC
We all benefit from this change, whether you get any SP or not.

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I invented Tiericide
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#75 - 2015-09-25 19:28:59 UTC
Captain Awkward wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Niriel Greez wrote:
And EVE shouldn't change in that regard.

But with every year that passes, the barrier for entry becomes harder for new players. Which is why it's important to keep balancing said barrier.
Close, but not quite.

Every year that passes, the barrier looks higher because new players who aren't familiar with the skill system see how much total SP others have accumulated and think they have to match that, somehow. In truth, the barrier — if it exists at all — is constant. What this change does is primarily to remove all waiting time that was previously built into the tutorials, with some added combat preparedness for good measure. It's not even a week worth of training, but it is a week worth of actually sensible skills rather than the random confused jumble that might otherwise arise from that week.


Indeed.

New players often loot stuff from the first wrecks they find and want to try out that afterburner, MWD, target paiter or heat sink (it does not matter how stupid it is to put a heat sink on a missile ship) and then they learn that they have to buy the skill books for each of those new things in the first place AND wait some minutes untill it is trained to level 1.

This change get rid of a good portion of it.

They have to learn that skills unlock items at some point or other. Why is it a bad thing that it happens during the tutorials?
Zihao
Doomheim
#76 - 2015-09-25 20:49:10 UTC
widgetman wrote:
You can give new players 20 mill sp , or even 50 mill sp.....it is knowledge of the game that will still not help them .....


If you're willing to sell me a character with 20-50mil sp for nothing, I'll gladly put that hypothesis to the test.

Not that I disagree new players don't need to start with millions of sp, but it's a little rich to imply we couldn't do anything with it.
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#77 - 2015-09-26 00:11:51 UTC
i need 10 mil to even compete against a high sp char...... wait what?
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2015-09-26 00:25:33 UTC
My fresh combat toon doesn't require mining and minong frig skill X

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Avvy
Doomheim
#79 - 2015-09-26 01:24:18 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Avvy wrote:


Might be because games like GW2 also have F2P elements to them now. Competition from other games is part of the problem and those games make it easy to just log in and play. EVE is an older style character building game (long time character building) which are the kind of games which I used to like. But that style of game is getting old and part of why EVE is destined to be just in a niche market, without radical changes you can't expect anything else.

And GW2 is a ghost town for it. I played the first year, and last I saw they combined all players onto one server and still couldn't hardly fill a zone.



It's not like that now.
Zihao
Doomheim
#80 - 2015-09-27 02:05:38 UTC
Webvan wrote:
widgetman wrote:
You can give new players 20 mill sp , or even 50 mill sp.....it is knowledge of the game that will still not help them .....

Yep, exactly. This is an alt thing, does nothing for actual newbies. Fail with the npe and throwing SP around will make things better?
dumb


Anytime you want to sell me a 20-50mil sp character for nothing, I'll be glad to put that claim to the test.