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Would it be possible for CCP to make Eve Online free to play?

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Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2015-09-08 19:48:20 UTC
Verstal wrote:
Move to Iceland? I can't do that sorry. Iceland is very pretty, but to far from all the talent you need to make a top tier game.


Is that s subtle dig at CCP?

Also to answer your questions, yes it is possible. The better question is if it's a good idea (No).
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#182 - 2015-09-08 19:53:51 UTC
Verstal wrote:
Another interesting way of thinking about it based on server bandwidth if the current hardware can support 100k or X players on at one time, then the current design of the product is 33.3% of what it should be. If I was designing a modern day ps4 or PC game and only used 33% of the hardware capabilities I would get fired.


If you worked for me and prioritized using as close to 100% of the hardware capabilities over making something that the niche customerbase wants in a final product, I would fire you.

The product tailored to your customer comes first, not maxing hardware just for the sake of it.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#183 - 2015-09-08 20:29:05 UTC
Verstal wrote:
Maybe UK or Germany if they had offices.
Last time I checked Newcastle was still in the UK, and CCP have an office there.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Verstal
Incredibuilders United
#184 - 2015-09-08 21:02:48 UTC
Odie McCracken wrote:
Verstal wrote:
Move to Iceland? I can't do that sorry. Iceland is very pretty, but to far from all the talent you need to make a top tier game.


Is that s subtle dig at CCP?

Also to answer your questions, yes it is possible. The better question is if it's a good idea (No).


Not at all, Iceland is a smaller game dev community.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#185 - 2015-09-08 21:22:39 UTC
Verstal wrote:
Not at all, Iceland is a smaller game dev community.


You do realize CCP has two offices in the US, one in China, one in Iceland, and one in the UK, right?

Not everyone works at a company's corporate headquarters
Verstal
Incredibuilders United
#186 - 2015-09-08 21:27:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Verstal
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Verstal wrote:
Another interesting way of thinking about it based on server bandwidth if the current hardware can support 100k or X players on at one time, then the current design of the product is 33.3% of what it should be. If I was designing a modern day ps4 or PC game and only used 33% of the hardware capabilities I would get fired.


If you worked for me and prioritized using as close to 100% of the hardware capabilities over making something that the niche customerbase wants in a final product, I would fire you.

The product tailored to your customer comes first, not maxing hardware just for the sake of it.


Its a interesting idea or method to measure design efficiency, you do not design to waste resources. I have no idea of many resources are being wasted on the current design.

Here is a small example, managing a POS:

CCP have simplified how towers are fueled over the last decade where you take the original resources and combine them in a fuel block so that it is 1 object.

By not having to count down 6 clocks per tower (what ever it was) reducing it to 1 CCP reduced the management overhead on the server making it more efficient on the server.

Also you could say it offered a simplification of the game play, and easier for a player to fuel a tower. I am trying to start debate that this was a good or bad idea just an example of to reduce server overhead with a design change.



I would ask you who is the CCP customer? All I have to look at is what direction the content is taking but what is your point of view?

I see this:
Ship Skins, Vanity Items for Characters that are represented by a 2d image for most of the population, new ships, new items, new mechanics, new things to do with RMT.

Each of these categories are targeted at a part of the current customer base. I have only started playing again for a few weeks did I miss something?
Verstal
Incredibuilders United
#187 - 2015-09-08 21:35:23 UTC
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Verstal wrote:
Not at all, Iceland is a smaller game dev community.


You do realize CCP has two offices in the US, one in China, one in Iceland, and one in the UK, right?

Not everyone works at a company's corporate headquarters



I have been to the Shanghai Office so I knew about that one, the food was awesome. I haven't looked into it to deeply but good information.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#188 - 2015-09-08 21:52:38 UTC
Verstal wrote:

Its a interesting idea or method to measure design efficiency, you do not design to waste resources. I have no idea of many resources are being wasted on the current design.

Here is a small example, managing a POS:

CCP have simplified how towers are fueled over the last decade where you take the original resources and combine them in a fuel block so that it is 1 object.

By not having to count down 6 clocks per tower (what ever it was) reducing it to 1 CCP reduced the management overhead on the server making it more efficient on the server.

Also you could say it offered a simplification of the game play, and easier for a player to fuel a tower. I am trying to start debate that this was a good or bad idea just an example of to reduce server overhead with a design change.


You completely missed my point. Players liked the POS fuel change, so who cares what impact it has on the servers? Again, you think about the benefit to the customer before you think about raw overhead of physical resources.

You can't make business decisions by thinking like an engineer/programmer (like you are).

Quote:

I would ask you who is the CCP customer? All I have to look at is what direction the content is taking but what is your point of view?

I see this:
Ship Skins, Vanity Items for Characters that are represented by a 2d image for most of the population, new ships, new items, new mechanics, new things to do with RMT.

Each of these categories are targeted at a part of the current customer base. I have only started playing again for a few weeks did I miss something?


The typical EVE player is the kind of person who would spend hours building model trains in their basement. They see EVE more as a hobby than a video game. They want a form of entertainment where they can work for something of their own choosing. They dislike instant gratification. They dislike someone being able to feel like they are unique and special simply because they finished a pre-set game mechanic. They want you to have to actually work for what you get.

You want to play for free? Great! Prove you can earn enough ISK to buy a PLEX every month. You can't prove you can earn that much in game? You don't deserve to play for free.

We see EVE as a truly unique game within the MMO universe and don't want it to turn into an easymode themepark spaceship game. I personally pay for three accounts every month. I want to see EVE keep going and not turn into WoW in space (as it would if the barrier to entry was easier/cheaper/etc). I'm happy contributing my $36/mo to CCP to help keep EVE up.
Verstal
Incredibuilders United
#189 - 2015-09-08 22:05:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Verstal
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Verstal wrote:

Its a interesting idea or method to measure design efficiency, you do not design to waste resources. I have no idea of many resources are being wasted on the current design.

Here is a small example, managing a POS:

CCP have simplified how towers are fueled over the last decade where you take the original resources and combine them in a fuel block so that it is 1 object.

By not having to count down 6 clocks per tower (what ever it was) reducing it to 1 CCP reduced the management overhead on the server making it more efficient on the server.

Also you could say it offered a simplification of the game play, and easier for a player to fuel a tower. I am trying to start debate that this was a good or bad idea just an example of to reduce server overhead with a design change.


You completely missed my point. Players liked the POS fuel change, so who cares what impact it has on the servers? Again, you think about the benefit to the customer before you think about raw overhead of physical resources.

You can't make business decisions by thinking like an engineer/programmer (like you are).

Quote:

I would ask you who is the CCP customer? All I have to look at is what direction the content is taking but what is your point of view?

I see this:
Ship Skins, Vanity Items for Characters that are represented by a 2d image for most of the population, new ships, new items, new mechanics, new things to do with RMT.

Each of these categories are targeted at a part of the current customer base. I have only started playing again for a few weeks did I miss something?


The typical EVE player is the kind of person who would spend hours building model trains in their basement. They see EVE more as a hobby than a video game. They want a form of entertainment where they can work for something of their own choosing. They dislike instant gratification. They dislike someone being able to feel like they are unique and special simply because they finished a pre-set game mechanic. They want you to have to actually work for what you get.

You want to play for free? Great! Prove you can earn enough ISK to buy a PLEX every month. You can't prove you can earn that much in game? You don't deserve to play for free.

We see EVE as a truly unique game within the MMO universe and don't want it to turn into an easymode themepark spaceship game. I personally pay for three accounts every month. I want to see EVE keep going and not turn into WoW in space (as it would if the barrier to entry was easier/cheaper/etc). I'm happy contributing my $36/mo to CCP to help keep EVE up.


So my point - Is the content that has been created focused on your description of the players that play Eve?


My role is a hybrid very rare - Programmer - Artist - Designer - Producer = They call us Technical Directors these days since we can touch so much of the product to improve the quality or build a small part of the game by ourselves with our own hands with out breaking the entire game while doing so.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#190 - 2015-09-08 22:34:57 UTC
im not sure how to comment on the stuff i read.....

So ill just leave this here....

OP you are an idiot and your friends should try to at least quit wearing pampers and try pull-ups.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#191 - 2015-09-08 22:35:44 UTC
Verstal wrote:
My role is a hybrid very rare


i love this! i wanna be a hybrid very rare Cool

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#192 - 2015-09-08 22:58:06 UTC
Verstal wrote:
So my point - Is the content that has been created focused on your description of the players that play Eve?


My role is a hybrid very rare - Programmer - Artist - Designer - Producer = They call us Technical Directors these days since we can touch so much of the product to improve the quality or build a small part of the game by ourselves with our own hands with out breaking the entire game while doing so.


For the most part, yes. They have missed the mark with a few changes, but have done a great job.

EVE isn't a small game though. They have to be able to handle a massive battle including 7000 people in the same system of the course of 20 hours. If 200 people decide to jump bridge five systems away, the server cluster needs to be able to handle it on the fly.

My issue with what you said (as an ex-programmer now in finance) is that you started with "this is what they are doing wrong". You didn't start by trying to understand what the EVE player base wants.

Start with the goal. You started this thread by saying CCP should do something because other MMOs do it. You didn't start by trying to get what the typical EVE players want.
Verstal
Incredibuilders United
#193 - 2015-09-09 00:45:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Verstal
Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Verstal wrote:
So my point - Is the content that has been created focused on your description of the players that play Eve?


My role is a hybrid very rare - Programmer - Artist - Designer - Producer = They call us Technical Directors these days since we can touch so much of the product to improve the quality or build a small part of the game by ourselves with our own hands with out breaking the entire game while doing so.


For the most part, yes. They have missed the mark with a few changes, but have done a great job.

EVE isn't a small game though. They have to be able to handle a massive battle including 7000 people in the same system of the course of 20 hours. If 200 people decide to jump bridge five systems away, the server cluster needs to be able to handle it on the fly.

My issue with what you said (as an ex-programmer now in finance) is that you started with "this is what they are doing wrong". You didn't start by trying to understand what the EVE player base wants.

Start with the goal. You started this thread by saying CCP should do something because other MMOs do it. You didn't start by trying to get what the typical EVE players want.


Not true been playing Eve 10+ years I know what I love about the game and started by trying to bring fellow game devs and friends to play the game recently, went through the entire new player experience myself on trial account.

Now thinking about how this fragile system can be changed to allow new players to fall in love with Eve with out ruining the game for myself or players like you is an interesting design exercise, which is all it is for me.

If you have ways to keep new players for more then 3 months they would be great to hear.

One simple idea could be to extend trial accounts with the same restrictions they have now no time limit or until they reach a certain skill point threshold, like X mil SP.

The other good idea I still like is changing the entire NPC system to be using the 3D characters instead of the 2D images that are based on the 3D characters to give the players mission briefings, and of course start and end the missions with a 10-20-30 intro - exit cinematic based on the already created storyline so players would experience what they see in the CCP promo videos quickly.

Slight changes that might keep a few more percentage of players long enough to get hooked, and these ideas appeal to me as well because I ran though all the content years ago and this would give me a reason to do it again.

When I listen to the interviews, presentations from CCP about design I feel a lack of confidence in the speakers. Which seems odd to me. Research continues.

ADD+ A few Null Sec ideas

Players get alliance logo on a nice big space billboard or space flag some part of the station which can be viewed from any gate based approach angle. This flag would unfold or rise for the first few minutes after down time and go down as the server was closing.

If you lost a station the logo has to have a cool animated explosion then changed to the new owners flag rising.

If you own a station for more then X amount of time you are given the option to buy a custom paint scheme or skin based on your Alliance Logo color scheme so that can be applied to every station of that type that is owned by that Alliance. Yes Goon City! :-)

Of course if it was me and I have choices I would offer the Alliance leadership a few options so they can decide if they want more of one color then another or a different pattern.

So when you own space it has more of that feeling to every player in the alliance that spilled blood for it.

Based on Eve's player created history using the Captains Quarters as is would offer a new option the History Chamber.

This new option would enable the player relive old Eve space battles all the way back to Beta recreated with CCP's tool set as a live fulll screen 3D sim that you can watch and re watch when every you wanted. Show to newer players as well you are new to war son sit down and we will show what we did 3 years ago so you can dock here.

Right now the player created history is represented by a 2d map with questionable colors and was created by someone outside of CCP or we would have nothing. Thank god for that guy who ever it is... let me look ah Verite < this dude is a god btw he is the only reason we have a way to see what happened over the 12 years. Thank you sir!

+++ADD

Kill mail system is represented by a lovely 2d image, little boring for my tastes, be great to get a downloadable 3D sim data package that can be replayed in the engine - on demand content so if you wanted a particular loss or epic kill you can relive it.

Also enables players to create VOD's which could be used teach newer players how to fleet fight, small gang tactics, promo VODS, taunting VOD, etc.

One big issue I have is that most of the great sandbox content is lost to the wind, nobody sees it is represented on a boring 2d kill board in game or out of game. When I look at the big losses of the day I would love to be able to watch it in engine.
Lex Gabinia
Res Repetundae
#194 - 2015-09-09 01:48:30 UTC
Verstal wrote:


"Not true been playing Eve 10+ years..." I

"I have only started playing again for a few weeks did I miss something?"




You seem to have a very hybrid rare interpretation of facts.

Have you played for ten years or been on an extended break?

You couch yourself as a gaming insider but seem to understand only the engineering side of game design forgetting market analysis and/or customer service. You certainly have no concept of the size of the marketplace as you think LoL generates 11.6 billion USD revenue per year.

Your little thought experiment may interest you as a theory; but, again, I implore you to move on and begin creating this magnificent MMO of your dreams - just leave EVE the hell alone.
Verstal
Incredibuilders United
#195 - 2015-09-09 01:56:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Verstal
Lex Gabinia wrote:
Verstal wrote:


"Not true been playing Eve 10+ years..." I

"I have only started playing again for a few weeks did I miss something?"




You seem to have a very hybrid rare interpretation of facts.

Have you played for ten years or been on an extended break?

You couch yourself as a gaming insider but seem to understand only the engineering side of game design forgetting market analysis and/or customer service. You certainly have no concept of the size of the marketplace as you think LoL generates 11.6 billion USD revenue per year.

Your little thought experiment may interest you as a theory; but, again, I implore you to move on and begin creating this magnificent MMO of your dreams - just leave EVE the hell alone.


http://venturebeat.com/2015/03/24/dota-2-makes-18m-per-month-for-valve-but-league-of-legends-makes-that-much-every-5-days/

Read that do the math I might be off by a few billion you could be very right and it should discount everything I have said.

++Sorry


  • 864 million a year for league not including the entire infrastructure that support League all the bars and bongs in Korea and China.
  • 288 million from Dota2 had a 18 mill prize pool for the big event of the year. So the kids that won IT5 got more money then CCP as an entire org in profit as prize money. Holly ****...
Lex Gabinia
Res Repetundae
#196 - 2015-09-09 02:14:51 UTC
Verstal wrote:
Lex Gabinia wrote:
Verstal wrote:


"Not true been playing Eve 10+ years..." I

"I have only started playing again for a few weeks did I miss something?"




You seem to have a very hybrid rare interpretation of facts.

Have you played for ten years or been on an extended break?

You couch yourself as a gaming insider but seem to understand only the engineering side of game design forgetting market analysis and/or customer service. You certainly have no concept of the size of the marketplace as you think LoL generates 11.6 billion USD revenue per year.

Your little thought experiment may interest you as a theory; but, again, I implore you to move on and begin creating this magnificent MMO of your dreams - just leave EVE the hell alone.


http://venturebeat.com/2015/03/24/dota-2-makes-18m-per-month-for-valve-but-league-of-legends-makes-that-much-every-5-days/

Read that do the math I might be off by a few billion you could be very right and it should discount everything I have said.

++Sorry


  • 864 million a year for league not including the entire infrastructure that support League all the bars and bongs in Korea and China.
  • 288 million from Dota2 had a 18 mill prize pool for the big event of the year. So the kids that won IT5 got more money then CCP as an entire org in profit as prize money. Holly ****...


Yeah, what's a few billion? Also, you are throwing all the MOBA's in with the classic MMORPG.

So you want to make EVE into a MOBA? Change the core game that one can spend months and years building something or gaining territory or whatever - hello sandbox - into a series of half-hour, guided capture the flag, encounters?

Why?

I try to understand people and their motivations (I get paid to do it everyday), but I honestly don't know what to make of your ramblings.

Oh and this little nugget from the end of the article certainly means CCP should jump all over this opportunity. <---- FYI - sarcasm.

"While gamers are spending a ton on the top MOBAs, it’s unlikely that the market can support five or six games beyond the top-tier earners."

Can we now agree that this is not what will improve EVE?
Verstal
Incredibuilders United
#197 - 2015-09-09 02:22:07 UTC
Lex Gabinia wrote:
Verstal wrote:
Lex Gabinia wrote:
Verstal wrote:


"Not true been playing Eve 10+ years..." I

"I have only started playing again for a few weeks did I miss something?"




You seem to have a very hybrid rare interpretation of facts.

Have you played for ten years or been on an extended break?

You couch yourself as a gaming insider but seem to understand only the engineering side of game design forgetting market analysis and/or customer service. You certainly have no concept of the size of the marketplace as you think LoL generates 11.6 billion USD revenue per year.

Your little thought experiment may interest you as a theory; but, again, I implore you to move on and begin creating this magnificent MMO of your dreams - just leave EVE the hell alone.


http://venturebeat.com/2015/03/24/dota-2-makes-18m-per-month-for-valve-but-league-of-legends-makes-that-much-every-5-days/

Read that do the math I might be off by a few billion you could be very right and it should discount everything I have said.

++Sorry


  • 864 million a year for league not including the entire infrastructure that support League all the bars and bongs in Korea and China.
  • 288 million from Dota2 had a 18 mill prize pool for the big event of the year. So the kids that won IT5 got more money then CCP as an entire org in profit as prize money. Holly ****...


Yeah, what's a few billion? Also, you are throwing all the MOBA's in with the classic MMORPG.

So you want to make EVE into a MOBA? Change the core game that one can spend months and years building something or gaining territory or whatever - hello sandbox - into a series of half-hour, guided capture the flag, encounters?

Why?

I try to understand people and their motivations (I get paid to do it everyday), but I honestly don't know what to make of your ramblings.

Oh and this little nugget from the end of the article certainly means CCP should jump all over this opportunity. <---- FYI - sarcasm.

"While gamers are spending a ton on the top MOBAs, it’s unlikely that the market can support five or six games beyond the top-tier earners."

Can we now agree that this is not what will improve EVE?


I posted some of the ideas to help CCP, I am going to keep doing it because its fun. You do have the option to contribute to them and or ignore the thread. I feel confident they would increase the player experience with out changing much.
Lex Gabinia
Res Repetundae
#198 - 2015-09-09 02:27:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Lex Gabinia
Verstal wrote:
Lex Gabinia wrote:
Verstal wrote:
Lex Gabinia wrote:
Verstal wrote:


"Not true been playing Eve 10+ years..." I

"I have only started playing again for a few weeks did I miss something?"




You seem to have a very hybrid rare interpretation of facts.

Have you played for ten years or been on an extended break?

You couch yourself as a gaming insider but seem to understand only the engineering side of game design forgetting market analysis and/or customer service. You certainly have no concept of the size of the marketplace as you think LoL generates 11.6 billion USD revenue per year.

Your little thought experiment may interest you as a theory; but, again, I implore you to move on and begin creating this magnificent MMO of your dreams - just leave EVE the hell alone.


http://venturebeat.com/2015/03/24/dota-2-makes-18m-per-month-for-valve-but-league-of-legends-makes-that-much-every-5-days/

Read that do the math I might be off by a few billion you could be very right and it should discount everything I have said.

++Sorry


  • 864 million a year for league not including the entire infrastructure that support League all the bars and bongs in Korea and China.
  • 288 million from Dota2 had a 18 mill prize pool for the big event of the year. So the kids that won IT5 got more money then CCP as an entire org in profit as prize money. Holly ****...


Yeah, what's a few billion? Also, you are throwing all the MOBA's in with the classic MMORPG.

So you want to make EVE into a MOBA? Change the core game that one can spend months and years building something or gaining territory or whatever - hello sandbox - into a series of half-hour, guided capture the flag, encounters?

Why?

I try to understand people and their motivations (I get paid to do it everyday), but I honestly don't know what to make of your ramblings.

Oh and this little nugget from the end of the article certainly means CCP should jump all over this opportunity. <---- FYI - sarcasm.

"While gamers are spending a ton on the top MOBAs, it’s unlikely that the market can support five or six games beyond the top-tier earners."

Can we now agree that this is not what will improve EVE?


I posted some of the ideas to help CCP, I am going to keep doing it because its fun. You do have the option to contribute to them and or ignore the thread. I feel confident they would increase the player experience with out changing much.



YOU WANT TO CHANGE FREAKING EVERYTHING!!!!!


EDIT: btw If this is a troll, then you win - please stop.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#199 - 2015-09-09 02:35:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Verstal wrote:
Read and listen to all that decide for yourself.

Verstal wrote:
Move to Iceland? I can't do that sorry. Iceland is very pretty, but to far from all the talent you need to make a top tier game and already on a great team. Maybe UK or Germany if they had offices.

Wut? I gotta say here it's not me lacking in reading and listening to decide for myself, your posts just show a horrible lack of knowledge about CCP and this game. You should apply your suggestion to yourself, and maybe one day come to a rational understanding on the topic of EVE & CCP in general, at least basic stuff.

Iceland, China, North America, and I think two in the UK. And they don't do all the work from their HQ. They have talent around the world.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Verstal
Incredibuilders United
#200 - 2015-09-09 02:50:05 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Verstal wrote:
Read and listen to all that decide for yourself.

Verstal wrote:
Move to Iceland? I can't do that sorry. Iceland is very pretty, but to far from all the talent you need to make a top tier game and already on a great team. Maybe UK or Germany if they had offices.

Wut? I gotta say here it's not me lacking in reading and listening to decide for myself, your posts just show a horrible knowledge about CCP and this game. You should apply your suggestion to yourself, and maybe one day come to a rational understanding on the topic of EVE & CCP in general, at least basic stuff.

Iceland, China, North America, and I think two in the UK. And they don't do all the work from their HQ. They have talent around the world.


Yes convincing my wife and kids to move to another country and leave the life they have now is a very low probability, I could do the design and prototyping work from here but I already have a job with a good salary and benefits.


CCP gets some free work because I love Eve like to help them and it has nothing to do with the work I do for a living.