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Fuel blocks! (and CCP Soundwaves wildlife safety advice)

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Vegare
Bitslix
Lolsec Fockel
#201 - 2011-12-10 00:28:21 UTC
Two step wrote:
you guys should really consider using the extra time you now have to figure out a way to make up for all this hassle. Perhaps you might consider working on that fuel->block conversion script that you didn't have time to get done?


yesss, please :)
Serenity Izia
Proxy Nebula
#202 - 2011-12-10 00:45:20 UTC
What the F* You said some time ago, that 2 weeks from blueprint realase would result in switchover, and now you screw us in the Blip!

Seriously! Didnt you think that people might have made plans explicitly based from your promises?
Assistant Slacker
Bengal Pilots Society
#203 - 2011-12-10 00:45:28 UTC
How about they make fuel blocks refinable so if you converted fuel blocks back into the POS fuel components? Maybe you would loose whatever bonus your BPO gave you in effeciency but you wouldn't need to buy more fuel It would let CCP figure out and test the new system and give people that for some reason converted everything they had into the new product the ability to convert back instead of complain that they jumped the gun and should have known this could and would be pushed back.
non judgement
Without Fear
Flying Burning Ships Alliance
#204 - 2011-12-10 00:50:35 UTC
Crias Taylor wrote:
People are reasonable upset. Not everyone is as rich as Goonswarm and now they have to have even more float fuel made further crunching fuel supplies. 

In short, I'm going to make mad space bucks with my stock of pos fuel. Ka-Ching. 
That might happen but I doubt it will. I think plenty of others (like myself) will now realise that they have plenty of fuel blocks that they wont need for a while. So they might start flooding the market.

I'm happy that I got a date for this but I'm a little bit annoyed that I spent time making these blocks. I guess I can use this time now to put the bpo in for more research. I should work out how much M.E. they should have.
mkint
#205 - 2011-12-10 00:54:26 UTC
You know what would be an interesting experiment? Figure out how to give people a choice between blocks or not and see what % of POSes actually end up using them, and where they tend to live. Maybe include graphs that compare alliance size to how many of their POSes end up using them.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#206 - 2011-12-10 02:23:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Crias Taylor wrote:
Towers usually need to fueled every 25 days. We have more than that time now.

Now imagine those towers are half-filled with blocks. You now have about 12 days of fuel.

The logistics people knew they'd have to refuel the towers afterwards, much sooner than previously. They were none to happy about this, but gritted their teeth because fuel blocks would make things easier (can finally get rid of fuel loading spreadsheets).

So now you have a bunch of ill-tempered POS managers, and you tell them they'll either have to:

a) Refuel the tower about 4 more times before the changeover (remember, half fuel capacity).

b) Remove the fuel blocks and replace the PI, and plan to put blocks in over again at a later date.

This is basically poking those ill-tempered POS managers with a pointy dung covered stick.

Personally, I only manage 2 towers, and I fully expected that it would go as smooth as 40 grit paper, so I planned for failure instead of failing to plan. I really can't begin to imagine the pain of the logistics of fuelling 100's of POSes. Or the w-space dwellers (having lived in w-space for 2.5 years myself, most recently in a C5 that saw hisec about once a month).

Kudos to CCP though for donning a bib and taking everything being flung at them in here. It isn't personal, it's just EVE.
Alec Freeman
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#207 - 2011-12-10 02:27:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Alec Freeman
Well. Im in a wormhole with enough fuel left in my POS to last me till Jan 4th

What the hell happened to 2 weeks!?!?!? So instead of spending christmas effortlessly changing into my stored fuel blocks i must spend it finding a hisec, going to jita and buying POS fuel. And because of this 2nd change i will probably end up buying more POS fuel than i need due to lack of trust in CCP that the change will acually happen on this day.

and did i mention i hate hisec? What?
Sokar Herra
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#208 - 2011-12-10 03:01:53 UTC
So, why question is whats going to happen to PI after Jan 24th? nerfed? just become a after thought? what is there for PI besides fuel for POS
ReK42
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#209 - 2011-12-10 03:05:25 UTC
Awesome. Thank you CCP.

You refuse to spend the manpower to make the transition yourself (ie: replace the fuel in all towers over down time). You instead decide to force the players to essentially fuel all of their towers two extra times. You announce that they will have two weeks to prepare after the patch.

A little over one week after the patch you suddenly push the date back by over a month and a half.

We have dozens of towers with less than 10 days of fuel right now because the rest of their bays are filled with blocks. We now need to fix all of this on extremely short notice.

**** you.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#210 - 2011-12-10 03:20:13 UTC
Innominate wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

There's a huge difference between "effort" and "money and man-hours".


i.e. It's cheaper to make thousands of players work for days than to have one dev implement a proper solution.

Please CCP, I thought we were past this ****.

funny goon. confuses game with real world. play vs work

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Beldeine Scarlet
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#211 - 2011-12-10 04:08:07 UTC
Wow, thank you CCP for the Christmas F-you.

Hey what the hell I'll keep two extra weeks of old fuel on hand just in case I tell myself ...... then the day after I finish converting all the rest to blocks comes this lovely gift, how sweet. Roll
Bunny Sweetcheeks
Boundless Hypocrisy
#212 - 2011-12-10 05:11:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Bunny Sweetcheeks
CCP Greyscale wrote:
In other news, I've just gone ahead and doubled all the bay sizes internally. It still needs to get approval and pass testing, neither of which are a given, but I'd recommend holding off emptying towers for a day or so (if circumstances allow) while we see if we can push this change through all the relevant pipes.



That is one way for sure.

What about just turning off consumption for all towers 2 or 3 weeks.

Yes, free towers....

Covers the issue of having to fuel them in a panic mode and covers the issue of "compensation" for the dehidration due to tears of pain for all POS owners.
Icarus Helia
State War Academy
Caldari State
#213 - 2011-12-10 05:34:46 UTC
Rastuasi wrote:
Salpun wrote:
As a wh dweller who got a bpo into the wh and started makeing blocks in an anticipated switch over in 2 weeks from blue print release your pushing it back for a month just put a big kink in my plans. Will now have to pull in more fuel to carry us over to the new date. Would have been nice to have this news even 24 hours agoWhat?

Could time left be changed to must be refilled on in anticipation of the change P


This exactly, kinda put my corp short on isk cause of this change >.>



these things take like no time to manufacture - we made enough for like a week, put them int he tower after that last patch, and then figured it best to wait until the announced date to stop fuelling the normal way.

I'd say this one is your fault guys, not CCP's.

Why you no care?
Artctura
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#214 - 2011-12-10 05:43:11 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Regardless of the complaints, it's appreciated that you're taking the time to do it right and have it ready. People would really be shitting their pants to log on Dec. 14th and find their force field down and someone like me looting the pos pinatas that were exposed. Yeah, it's an inconvenience for some, but better than the worst case scenario could have been by a longshot.


Pretty much this. If it was something where the failure case was less destructive, we'd have at least considered crossing our fingers and pushing the button anyway. Where the worst-case scenario is that every starbase in New Eden goes offline, though, we're erring on the side of extreme caution. We know this is horribly inconvenient, and it sucks, and it's wasting a lot of people's time and money, but it's better than the Great Starbase Pinata Bash 2011. Everyone here's a bit miffed that we've got to this point, but we console ourselves with the fact that this is a one-time burst of pain that's paving the way for a much smoother ride for large-scale tower operators everywhere.

(Yes, I know it makes your one wormhole tower marginally more difficult to run, and I'm personally very sorry about that, but I ran half a dozen towers for six months and splitting fuel into piles to go into my hauler made me want to lobotomize myself. We shouldn't have that sort of user pain in our game.)



You know, I appreciate the honesty. It goes a long way. Good thing you guys are aware of doing all these testing things and announcing changes in advance. We wouldn't want anything destructive like loosing a null sec alliance because we didn't tell anyone we conveniently forgot to tell you that a checkbox is no longer checked. But seriously, if you knew the target was this exceedingly optimistic, you should have been saying that from the beginning.

Artctura for CSM 2013
Mekratrig
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#215 - 2011-12-10 05:53:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekratrig
Firstly, thanks CCP for Crucible. It fixed so many little things that annoyed the crap out of me.

I've noticed that it had a lot of twitches, but the subsequent patches have resolved most of them, and I'm guessing that's where the time has gone for testing that you were expecting to be able to spend on POS testing.

That being said, you did say the crossover would be happening at a specific time, and it's not (due to reasons beyond your control).

In RL I make a lot of money from clients who's previous providers made optimistic promises like that that they couldn't fulfil.

The suggestion from someone back in this thread that POS's can run without fuel until the swap over date isn't a bad idea. It would stuff the economy for a few months and mess up a lot of peoples war plans, but it would be a nice Christmas present, and give a nice warm fuzzy feeling to all the whiners (I'm sorry, but you did stuff up).

They need a carrot.

Just a thought.

btw: you should also mention that you should never use a tourniquet for snakebite as this causes more damage to the affected limb. Use a pressure bandage, starting above the wound, closest to the heart, and roll down too and over the wound site.

Advantage of being Australian. :)
Kasulli
Gateway Mining Division
#216 - 2011-12-10 05:55:01 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
spookydonut wrote:

All I'm hearing is excuses about the amount of effort.


Then I'm sorry, because we're having an irreconcilable communication breakdown. From our point of view this decision is concerned pretty much exclusively with risk, not effort.

Pricy McPricechecker wrote:
Have you considered simply doubling the capacity of fuel bays until the patch, then reverting them afterwards? That way we can all fuel block up our POS and otherwise still fuel them as normal until the patch comes along, and doing this is clearly not a big technical problem because you've already increased their capacity once.


Actually, no, and that's a pretty reasonable suggestion. I would assume for now that it's too late to get this in under the wire, but I'll ask about it at least. Please understand that this is 95% likely to be too late at this point though.

Kazanir wrote:
You owed it to this section of your playerbase to treat their part of the game slightly more carefully, rather than busting out the snark with, "Sometimes this is a thing that happens."


That's not snark, it's resignation. One of the things I've learned over the years is that sometimes there's nothing right now you can do to fix the situation, however much you'd like to. The only practical way to deal with this in the long run is to be able to say "it is what it is" and get on with something that you can make better.


That last bit is most important - look folks, they screwed up bad and really caused a headache. They didn't cause permanent damage. Logistics sux - really really sux - but the decisions IS a sound one to push back. Arguing code and 'quick fixes' is foolish and shouldn't even be approached.

Starbase code is so messy that fooling with it would almost certainly only compound the problem - and we WOULD get a worst-case scenario of offlines on a massive scale.

That being said - the fact is, Greyscale, the team made a poor call on when to inform the players. From the beginning - the idea of a two week release should never have been mentioned. From the beginning transparency should have been made clear and the BPO's should have been released with a clear statement that you were unsure if the change would happen - and that upon reaching the two-week out mark if you still were unsure, the change-over would automatically be pushed back. This would have allowed players to begin production, by choice (as originally intended) but not by force (as was the case due to poor communication). A lot of assets are now sitting, uselessly, taking up space. WH is especially hit hard by this - storage isn't exactly readily available.

Someone has already said it...but THIS RIGHT HERE is an excellent example of effort biting you in the butt. Not communication effort - programming and code. How long has the starbase code needed fixes - or an entirely new code for that matter? It is indeed extremely complex, but this is a project that should have started a long time ago and simply been dealth with so that significant improvement features (like this one) would go over smoother and easily.

Summary - Lesson Learned not just in communication, but realizing that old problems WILL come back to haunt you. On an entirely different subject - FW - what do almost all new players ask about after their first week? Militia. Why? Because your NPE and career agents STEER NEW PLAYERS TO FW by virtue of the final mission. Now figure how many players get turned off when, not knowing how bad FW sux, they join...and quit a week later. Star Base code is fast approaching - and probably passing - that same point. It needs to be revamped, and it needs to be revamped now.

Crucible is a GREAT expansion - lots of fixes and improvements. Players know you can only do so much - but your choice in priorities will determine our attitudes towards EVE Development. CQ vs the dire needs of star base code and FW is just one example of poor prioritization of EVE's needs. This frustration (that is more insult than injury) is an example of that poor prioritization and the end results.

Learn from it - you did from Incarna, now try for doing it for all of New Eden's woes. Take a good game and make it great - not by adding parts, but by fixing what is poor and making it great.

TL;DR
Players - Lay Off a little - They made a mistake, could have been a lot worst, their decision however is the right one. Hammer on CCP though for prioritizing what needs to still be fixed - like Star Base Code and FW.

CCP - Learn from poor communication and prioritization. Had you fixed star base code years ago, this change-over probably would have been much simpler. Crucible is great, lots of fixes, keep up the focus on fixing EVE - because it still has broken parts like FW and the Star Base Code. You'd make a lot of people happy, hisec to WH and everything between, if the star base code was revamped such that future improvements like fuel blocks could be easily implemented and adjusted. Everyone agrees fuel blocks are great - you've just managed to totally mess up implementing it and cost a lot of people time and money (one can be recuperated, the other not).
Artctura
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#217 - 2011-12-10 05:57:28 UTC
Boltzy Tsero wrote:
So, out of the 180 replies to this post only about 5 are positive!

CCP Greyscale, please ignore all 175 posts by trolls and griefers, and thanks for giving a DATE on when this conversion will take place.

As stated CCP have never given a date and only mention approx two weeks after Crucible regarding the fuel block change over period.

You guys need to give CCP some love for a change! You have just had the best expansion for months!.

Safe! o7


I don't disagree. They've done a phenomenal job with Crucible. The issue here though is the complete lack of information on this and then the shock at the time frame. Kudos to Greyscale for the work he has been doing in explaining, (Which helps a lot, and frankly should be edited into his post on page 1 as well as in the replies) and for trying to get the size of the tower doubled. I have one more recommendation. Drop the PI export tax to 2-3% until the switchover. Then put it to the new levels. This will help drop the price on fuel while this switchover takes place and everyone is "double fueling" without taking any ISK out of the player's hands. Then, starting on the 24th with the new fuel, increase it 3% every week back to what it is now.

That fixes both sides of the issue here. Players get to store the fuel in the tower until the switchover and you get to combat the price increase that comes with the natural market demand going up as a direct result of the switchover as well as put pressure to increase demand when the supply explodes in the first couple of weeks of fuel block operation.

This makes your logistics players happy because the time they've spent already isn't wasted. This makes the corporation bean counter's happy because POS fuel won't spike short term as their logistics players are all of a sudden saying they need twice as much as expected and the PI players should at least see some increased pressure to keep prices consistent as the tax rate rises once all of this is underway.

Artctura for CSM 2013
Kasulli
Gateway Mining Division
#218 - 2011-12-10 06:02:24 UTC
Artctura wrote:
Boltzy Tsero wrote:
So, out of the 180 replies to this post only about 5 are positive!

CCP Greyscale, please ignore all 175 posts by trolls and griefers, and thanks for giving a DATE on when this conversion will take place.

As stated CCP have never given a date and only mention approx two weeks after Crucible regarding the fuel block change over period.

You guys need to give CCP some love for a change! You have just had the best expansion for months!.

Safe! o7


I don't disagree. They've done a phenomenal job with Crucible. The issue here though is the complete lack of information on this and then the shock at the time frame. Kudos to Greyscale for the work he has been doing in explaining, (Which helps a lot, and frankly should be edited into his post on page 1 as well as in the replies) and for trying to get the size of the tower doubled. I have one more recommendation. Drop the PI export tax to 2-3% until the switchover. Then put it to the new levels. This will help drop the price on fuel while this switchover takes place and everyone is "double fueling" without taking any ISK out of the player's hands. Then, starting on the 24th with the new fuel, increase it 3% every week back to what it is now.

That fixes both sides of the issue here. Players get to store the fuel in the tower until the switchover and you get to combat the price increase that comes with the natural market demand going up as a direct result of the switchover as well as put pressure to increase demand when the supply explodes in the first couple of weeks of fuel block operation.

This makes your logistics players happy because the time they've spent already isn't wasted. This makes the corporation bean counter's happy because POS fuel won't spike short term as their logistics players are all of a sudden saying they need twice as much as expected and the PI players should at least see some increased pressure to keep prices consistent as the tax rate rises once all of this is underway.


If you have stations to store in.
Worm Holes.

Will WH survive? Yes - they'll be fine. But if they already got the fuel to WH, they now have to take it back to stations (risky as always when transporting) or have valuable space taken up in their WH - possibly and probably too much space so they could be adequately prepared for change-over. Everything in WH is compounded due to the need for redundancy.

Like I said though - bashing CCP doesn't help. They just need to learn from the communication error. Not a lot of dmg done, just time wasted. WH loses out the worst though.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#219 - 2011-12-10 06:07:53 UTC
CynoNet Two wrote:
Thanks for letting us know this on December 9th, two weeks after everyone asked you to postpone this change. We've all really enjoyed rushing around half-filling towers with fuel blocks all week only to now have to replace with normal fuel again for another month.

**** you very much

What are you all crying for? Soundwave defused the entire situation with humour. Everything should be a-okay now.
LethalGeek
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#220 - 2011-12-10 06:16:15 UTC  |  Edited by: LethalGeek
Today I learned people actually converted all of their fuel way ahead of any official announcement of the change over date.

Would it have really been so hard to just make 2-4 days of fuel (depending on your level of downtime paranoia) and then convert the rest AFTER the switch? It takes 2-3 minutes to make 1 hour of fuel at a POS. Not really hard to play catch up with that.

Also LOL at the folks who are too broke to pay for a POS for any real length of time. L2isk fools.

Edit: I can't if everyone here is just really that upset or we're all trolling each other. It's like Poe's Law...