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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

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Throth
Doomheim
#841 - 2015-09-01 16:46:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Throth
Jenn aSide wrote:
Throth wrote:
I quit because there is nothing left for me as a casual gamer. I'm tired of the expectations that I have too keep up with every exploit and change or else I'm deserving of griefing. It's another version of victim blaming, only in a virtual world.


If you are a 'victim' in a video game, your leaving is no losss to anyone. The only people who use the term 'victim blaming' are people who don't like to take responsibility for their actions. And yes, it's your job to keep up with game changes.

You played a game that doesn't really fit into what you want (and never really has) and yet somehow that's the games fault? No it's not, it's yours.


I don't have a job in a game. I didn't pay $15 to have a job; I paid to play a game. I played a game since 2004 that changed from a game where you got to pilot space ships to a game for griefers. I held on as long as I could to the small amount of PvE that was left in the game until it was gone. And now I'm leaving. I never said it was anyone's fault; I clearly stated the facts. Griefers like to grief, and then blame the victims of their griefing because the victims weren't 100% up to date on the techniques the griefers were currently using based on whatever outside sources some choose to use. I take responsibility for not spending the extra time to surf the internet for out-of-game resources to combat the griefers. I take responsibility and clearly state that a game that treats it's players as if the game is a job is not a game I wish to play anymore, and as a player from the beginning I will correct you in your false assumptions and false perceptions that the game was always this way; it was not. You can't use you deception on me - I was here at the beginning. Try that "it was always this way" bull sht on someone else.
Britney Fears
EVE Corporation 98582134
#842 - 2015-09-01 16:48:39 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Britney Fears wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
How did you lose your stuff?

Hyperdunk exploit

So were you superhyperdunked, or are you just complaining about something that isn't an exploit?


Mate I am not complaining, i understand calling hyperdunking an exploit is looked down as being politically incorect in todays EVE since CCP said this and that about it. I'll admit its not an exploit but a very shity mechanic
Salvos Rhoska
#843 - 2015-09-01 16:50:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lucas Kell wrote:
Mate, I'm so bored all the 1,2,3,4,5's, and I'm done with your bad analogies.

So you concede defeat.
My sympathies for you having trouble dealing with numbered, itemized and concise points (rather than your selective quotespam) as well as supporting examples and relevant analogies (except when you try to butcher them and fail, such as claiming everyone can have the ball at the same time in football).

The final last lame spelling-nazi gesture was particularly pathetic.
Fair enough. I'm not surprised.

Perhaps the forum of some "Competitive PvE" game would be more to your tastes.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#844 - 2015-09-01 16:51:32 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:


Salvos Rhoska wrote:
3)"t's indirect. The mechanic is vs Environment, the competition is vs Players, so it's competitive PvE."
Its direct.
Players DIRECTLY take this action in order to influence the environment against other players in their own competitive interest (PvP).
Roll They don't do it directly to each other. You are buying from and selling to an NPC. The competition is indirect.



You are confusing the buy/sell order mechanic with buying / selling to NPC.

When you buy a skillbook from one of those 365 days offers, you're buying from an NPC at a fixed price (yes, it varies ... but only so small). Your ISK leaves the game.

When you buy an item from a player made sales order, the function of the broker is just to block the item until the sales offer either runs out or to hand you the item and transfer the money into the sellers wallet. While this happens during the absence of the seller, the transaction is still between you, who got the item and the seller, who got the money.

Saying otherwise is like saying that two players do not compete against each other in a round based strategy game, because they can't move their units at the same time ... Roll

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Throth
Doomheim
#845 - 2015-09-01 16:52:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Throth
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Throth wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Throth wrote:
And now I will last remember that there is no longer any casual gameplay left.

Throth wrote:
congrats to the player that I gave my 20B in assets to; may he/she enjoy them.

Congrats on creating a spacerich casual to replace you.

Probably nothing in this game can be as demotivating as someone dropping 20bil on you, and robbing you of any motivation to earn it for yourself.


Clearly, demotivating one player is my top worry before I quit a game after over a decade. Please tell me more on what I'm doing wrong when I quit Eve.


You might want to keep one foot in the door. I can understand why, after a decade, you'd want a break. I'm a casual. I'm not good at the game. I'm probably never going to be ~relevant~ by any accounting.

That's OK. I go for actual relevance in my day job. I don't live EVE. I've never tried to and I never will. I'm still here, because neither space relevance nor space riches are motivators. I have friends in EVE. I play a few hours a week to run around with them.

And it's certainly possible to be a casual PVE player in EVE. You have to be on your toes a bit, so you just make that part of the fun. Pirate


One word. Hyperdunking. It's ridiculous. Eve's endorsement is the final nail in the coffin for me. I'm glad casuals still play, and at the same time I feel sorry for you; like i'm looking back at myself a few years ago.

Hyperdunking is the equivalent of cops shooting a murderer's gun and saying, "hey don't shoot him that guy again, or we'll shoot your other weapons after you use them." Meanwhile the cops sit and wait and watch the criminal shoot an unarmed victim over and over with cheap pistols until the victims is dead and the culprit picks the pockets of the corpse. The griefer-immunities are atrocious at this point in Eve, and any sane person would be done at this point.

Fly safe.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#846 - 2015-09-01 16:53:34 UTC
Throth wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Throth wrote:
I quit because there is nothing left for me as a casual gamer. I'm tired of the expectations that I have too keep up with every exploit and change or else I'm deserving of griefing. It's another version of victim blaming, only in a virtual world.


If you are a 'victim' in a video game, your leaving is no losss to anyone. The only people who use the term 'victim blaming' are people who don't like to take responsibility for their actions. And yes, it's your job to keep up with game changes.

You played a game that doesn't really fit into what you want (and never really has) and yet somehow that's the games fault? No it's not, it's yours.


I don't have a job in a game. I didn't pay $15 to have a job; I paid to play a game. I played a game since 2004 that changed from a game where you got to pilot space ships to a game for griefers. I held on as long as I could to the small amount of PvE that was left in the game until it was gone. And now I'm leaving. I never said it was anyone's fault; I clearly stated the facts. Griefers like to grief, and then blame the victims of their griefing because the victims weren't 100% up to date on the techniques the griefers were currently using based on whatever outside sources some choose to use. I take responsibility for not spending the extra time to surf the internet for out-of-game resources to combat the griefers. I take responsibility and clearly state that a game that treats it's players as if the game is a job is not a game I wish to play anymore, and as a player from the beginning I will correct you in your false assumptions and false perceptios that the game was always this way; it was not. You can't use you deception on me - I was here at the beginning. Try that "it was always this way" bull sht on someone else.


This is just someone trying to defend their ego by defending their bad choices.

You don't pay 15 bucks to have a job, you pay 15 bucks to take part in a sandbox game where everyone you meet could be out to get you (not everyone is, but some are). If you want to participate in that, you keep up to date on what other players are doing/learning.

You didn't. YOU failed. Not the griefers. They outplayed you and rather than take responsibility like an adult, you throw a 5 year old's "I'm taking my ball and going home" hissy fit.

Why not jsut accept that you aren't cut out for the kinds of interactions this game provides? Why not realize "I did this to my self, I KNOW how people are and still I didn't do what I needed to to win/survive"? How does this passive aggressive bullshit you are doing serve you?

Whatever the answers to those questions, you don't need to tell us, but you need to ask them of yourself. Or rather, you should have asked them before wasting 10 years of money on something you aren't able to mentally handle.
Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#847 - 2015-09-01 16:53:38 UTC
Throth wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Throth wrote:
I quit because there is nothing left for me as a casual gamer. I'm tired of the expectations that I have too keep up with every exploit and change or else I'm deserving of griefing. It's another version of victim blaming, only in a virtual world.


If you are a 'victim' in a video game, your leaving is no losss to anyone. The only people who use the term 'victim blaming' are people who don't like to take responsibility for their actions. And yes, it's your job to keep up with game changes.

You played a game that doesn't really fit into what you want (and never really has) and yet somehow that's the games fault? No it's not, it's yours.


I don't have a job in a game. I didn't pay $15 to have a job; I paid to play a game. I played a game since 2004 that changed from a game where you got to pilot space ships to a game for griefers. I held on as long as I could to the small amount of PvE that was left in the game until it was gone. And now I'm leaving. I never said it was anyone's fault; I clearly stated the facts. Griefers like to grief, and then blame the victims of their griefing because the victims weren't 100% up to date on the techniques the griefers were currently using based on whatever outside sources some choose to use. I take responsibility for not spending the extra time to surf the internet for out-of-game resources to combat the griefers. I take responsibility and clearly state that a game that treats it's players as if the game is a job is not a game I wish to play anymore, and as a player from the beginning I will correct you in your false assumptions and false perceptios that the game was always this way; it was not. You can't use you deception on me - I was here at the beginning. Try that "it was always this way" bull sht on someone else.


Everything you are describing has been around since 2003. If you bury your head in the sand you may not see it.

I remember back in 2004 it was cruise missle Kessies in Yulai. The 'griefing' as you seem to want to call it has always been a part of Eve, and is not against any rules of the game.

Sorry you're not having fun anymore, but a 10+ year run in any game will do that to someone. However, don't say that this type of behavior is something new that CCP is encouraging. It has been this way since the start.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#848 - 2015-09-01 16:57:20 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
So you concede defeat.
My sympathies for you having trouble dealing with numbered, itemized and concise points (rather than your selective quotespam) as well as supporting examples and relevant analogies (except when you try to butcher them and fail, such as claiming everyone can have the ball at the same time in football).

The lame spelling nazi last gesture was particularly pathetic.
Fair enough. I'm not surprised.
I concede nothing. Competitive PvE is and always will be a valid definition for some game mechanics. I simply have no interest in continuing a discussion with someone like yourself. You misunderstand and misrepresent points and you'll continue doing so (even in your post above where you seem to be attributing your own misunderstanding of your own analogy to me Roll) regardless of how wrong you're proven to be. It's going to go nowhere, so why don't we just agree to disagree. When someone mentions competitive PvE, you can continue to go "*gasp* what is this mysterious conception" while the rest of us will understand.

Oh, and it's not spelling nazi, I've just pointed it out a few times subtly and you are still yet to correct it, which further points to your lack of reading posts before you respond.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Salvos Rhoska
#849 - 2015-09-01 16:58:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lucas Kell wrote:
---


Nobody except Whitehound agrees with you here.

There is no agreement to disagree towards you, nor him, by anyone.

You couldn't even define the term itself with any substance.

As I said, perhaps a "Competitive PvE" forum would be more along your speed, where you can interact with NPCs/AI, rather than actual players (and playing the kind of football where everyone can nicely share the same ball, at the same time.)

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#850 - 2015-09-01 16:59:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Throth wrote:
I played a game since 2004 that changed from a game where you got to pilot space ships to a game for griefers. I held on as long as I could to the small amount of PvE that was left in the game until it was gone. And now I'm leaving. I never said it was anyone's fault; I clearly stated the facts.

But what you're saying now is not fact; it's just your interpretation of how CCP has remained consistent in their rules. Griefing has never been allowed in EVE, and their enforcement of this has, if anything, become more strict over the years.

Quote:
Griefers like to grief, and then blame the victims of their griefing because the victims weren't 100% up to date on the techniques the griefers were currently using based on whatever outside sources some choose to use.

No-one is blaming anyone for being the target of griefing. No-one really has to, since griefers get banned — the only resource you need to fight them is the petition system, conveniently available both in-game and on the support website. The only case when the target is being blamed for the outcome is when they refuse to take even the most basic of precautions against combat, up to and including ignoring the fact that they're playing a full-time PvP game.

Quote:
You can't use you deception on me - I was here at the beginning. Try that "it was always this way" bull sht on someone else.
You may have been there at the beginning, but that doesn't change how things actually worked back then — it just means your memory is being filtered in very peculiar ways.

Throth wrote:
Hyperdunking is the equivalent of cops shooting a murderer's gun and saying, "hey don't shoot him that guy again, or we'll shoot your other weapons after you use them." Meanwhile the cops sit and wait and watch the criminal shoot an unarmed victim over and over with cheap pistols until the victims is dead and the culprit picks the pockets of the corpse. The griefer-immunities are atrocious at this point in Eve, and any sane person would be done at this point.

That is, in almost every detail, a complete misunderstanding of how (and why) hyperdunking works, as well as of the rules CCP enforce.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#851 - 2015-09-01 17:03:30 UTC
Jill Xelitras wrote:
You are confusing the buy/sell order mechanic with buying / selling to NPC.

When you buy a skillbook from one of those 365 days offers, you're buying from an NPC at a fixed price (yes, it varies ... but only so small). Your ISK leaves the game.

When you buy an item from a player made sales order, the function of the broker is just to block the item until the sales offer either runs out or to hand you the item and transfer the money into the sellers wallet. While this happens during the absence of the seller, the transaction is still between you, who got the item and the seller, who got the money.

Saying otherwise is like saying that two players do not compete against each other in a round based strategy game, because they can't move their units at the same time ... Roll
No, I'm not. You need to read back.

I'll summarise here.
I was stating that trading, in general is PvP. You buy to and/or from a player. There is no argument there.

To ensure I covered all my bases however, there's a tiny subset of the market which is NPC driven. Look at items like Soil for example. These are sold and bought by NPCs, and the price changes in a station as you buy and sell them. Some people transport and trade these items, which is PvE as no other players are involved. Because the price changes for everyone though, it's competitive PvE as two or more players will push buy prices up and sell prices down for each other as they do it.

Make sense?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#852 - 2015-09-01 17:05:23 UTC
Throth wrote:


One word. Hyperdunking. It's ridiculous. Eve's endorsement is the final nail in the coffin for me. I'm glad casuals still play, and at the same time I feel sorry for you; like i'm looking back at myself a few years ago. Fly safe.


One of the things that I despise in when people try to couch their personal failures in some kind of 'class action' situation. CCP isn't doing anything to casuals, 'griefers' (ie people playing the game within the rules but in a way this dude doesn't like) aren't either. You left yourself unprepared in a game that is pretty much about being prepared, but when the inevitable happens, you try to pin the 'blame' on others.

All of which means your fake claim of leaving (you would have left by now if you intended to) is just a form of trying to meta game, trying to strike back at people who out played you by knowing more about game mechanics than you do.

I got outplayed once like 8 years ago in a mission (didn't die, lost a valuable item though). At no point did i think of blaming others or the game, I thought "hmm, I'll know next time" and kept on going. You don't seem the type to ever be able to do that.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#853 - 2015-09-01 17:06:53 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
You didn't. YOU failed. Not the griefers. They outplayed you and rather than take responsibility like an adult, you throw a 5 year old's "I'm taking my ball and going home" hissy fit.
Arguably, they did exploit, clearly breaking the ruling about reshipping under a criminal timer and CCP OKed it. I can certainly understand why people wouldn't like that decision and choose to protest with their wallets and they should certainly do so. The game rules clearly did change, so saying it's all the same is pretty dumb.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Throth
Doomheim
#854 - 2015-09-01 17:12:25 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Throth wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Throth wrote:
I quit because there is nothing left for me as a casual gamer. I'm tired of the expectations that I have too keep up with every exploit and change or else I'm deserving of griefing. It's another version of victim blaming, only in a virtual world.


If you are a 'victim' in a video game, your leaving is no losss to anyone. The only people who use the term 'victim blaming' are people who don't like to take responsibility for their actions. And yes, it's your job to keep up with game changes.

You played a game that doesn't really fit into what you want (and never really has) and yet somehow that's the games fault? No it's not, it's yours.


I don't have a job in a game. I didn't pay $15 to have a job; I paid to play a game. I played a game since 2004 that changed from a game where you got to pilot space ships to a game for griefers. I held on as long as I could to the small amount of PvE that was left in the game until it was gone. And now I'm leaving. I never said it was anyone's fault; I clearly stated the facts. Griefers like to grief, and then blame the victims of their griefing because the victims weren't 100% up to date on the techniques the griefers were currently using based on whatever outside sources some choose to use. I take responsibility for not spending the extra time to surf the internet for out-of-game resources to combat the griefers. I take responsibility and clearly state that a game that treats it's players as if the game is a job is not a game I wish to play anymore, and as a player from the beginning I will correct you in your false assumptions and false perceptios that the game was always this way; it was not. You can't use you deception on me - I was here at the beginning. Try that "it was always this way" bull sht on someone else.


This is just someone trying to defend their ego by defending their bad choices.

You don't pay 15 bucks to have a job, you pay 15 bucks to take part in a sandbox game where everyone you meet could be out to get you (not everyone is, but some are). If you want to participate in that, you keep up to date on what other players are doing/learning.

You didn't. YOU failed. Not the griefers. They outplayed you and rather than take responsibility like an adult, you throw a 5 year old's "I'm taking my ball and going home" hissy fit.

Why not jsut accept that you aren't cut out for the kinds of interactions this game provides? Why not realize "I did this to my self, I KNOW how people are and still I didn't do what I needed to to win/survive"? How does this passive aggressive bullshit you are doing serve you?

Whatever the answers to those questions, you don't need to tell us, but you need to ask them of yourself. Or rather, you should have asked them before wasting 10 years of money on something you aren't able to mentally handle.



"you pay 15 bucks to take part in a sandbox game where everyone you meet could be out to get you"
-obviously I don't, since I am choosing not to play anymore, and you're ignoring the fact that it wasn't always this way and attempting to perpetuate the assumption that it was. I admit that it has become this, and am therefore leaving. How is this defending my ego again? It obviously isn't.

"rather than take responsibility like an adult"
-I clearly said I am taking responsibility for not wanting to research out of game resources on griefer techniques, and consequently I have decided to leave.


"Why not jsut accept that you aren't cut out for the kinds of interactions this game provides?"
-Again, I'm leaving the game.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#855 - 2015-09-01 17:13:49 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
You didn't. YOU failed. Not the griefers. They outplayed you and rather than take responsibility like an adult, you throw a 5 year old's "I'm taking my ball and going home" hissy fit.
Arguably, they did exploit, clearly breaking the ruling about reshipping under a criminal timer and CCP OKed it. I can certainly understand why people wouldn't like that decision and choose to protest with their wallets and they should certainly do so. The game rules clearly did change, so saying it's all the same is pretty dumb.


If you do the things you need to do to keep from getting hyperdunked in the 1st place, you don't have to petition anything. What he or anyone else does with his wallet is his choice and no concern of mine, simply saying that the way of thinking these people exhibit is the problem, not the fact that someone else did something (even if they cheated).

Not unlike real life, you can either walk around unaware of your surroundings, get victimized by some criminal who is clearly breaking the law, and then HOPE that criminal gets caught and you get 'reimbursed' (after dealing with myriad lawyers, cops, prosecutors and judges) in some way after waiting months/years....

....OR you can not let yourself be a victim in the 1st place and not have to worry about dealing with any of it.
Estevan Valladares
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#856 - 2015-09-01 17:14:37 UTC
Everyone uses the same excuse about exploits.

Exploits arent EVERY single way game mechanics can be used against you.

Exploits are only when the game mechanics DO NOT allow you to do something and you use a technique to do it.

If you are just cleverly using game mechanics, it is just it, you are being more clever.

When you arent aware of game mechanics, that is your loss, not unfair or violating.

EVE is one of the few games where being smart is more rewarding than being a dumb repeater.

WorldTradersGuild.Com [WTG] - We are here for the long haul
Odie McCracken
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#857 - 2015-09-01 17:15:50 UTC
Throth wrote:
I am taking responsibility for not wanting to research out of game resources on griefer techniques, and consequently I have decided to leave.


Random question, why do we need to go to out of game resources to learn about 'griefer' techniques? Don't people talk about this and share the knowledge with each other in game?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#858 - 2015-09-01 17:16:23 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Arguably, they did exploit, clearly breaking the ruling about reshipping under a criminal timer and CCP OKed it.
Arguably, they did not do anything of the kind, since they're not reshipping and since the original reason behind the mechanical change doesn't even apply.

Quote:
The game rules clearly did change, so saying it's all the same is pretty dumb.
I don't think he said that it is. Quite the opposite — he said that it's not anyone else's fault but the player themself if they don't adapt to changes.
Britney Fears
EVE Corporation 98582134
#859 - 2015-09-01 17:18:47 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
You didn't. YOU failed. Not the griefers. They outplayed you and rather than take responsibility like an adult, you throw a 5 year old's "I'm taking my ball and going home" hissy fit.
Arguably, they did exploit, clearly breaking the ruling about reshipping under a criminal timer and CCP OKed it. I can certainly understand why people wouldn't like that decision and choose to protest with their wallets and they should certainly do so. The game rules clearly did change, so saying it's all the same is pretty dumb.


If you do the things you need to do to keep from getting hyperdunked in the 1st place, you don't have to petition anything. What he or anyone else does with his wallet is his choice and no concern of mine, simply saying that the way of thinking these people exhibit is the problem, not the fact that someone else did something (even if they cheated).

Not unlike real life, you can either walk around unaware of your surroundings, get victimized by some criminal who is clearly breaking the law, and then HOPE that criminal gets caught and you get 'reimbursed' (after dealing with myriad lawyers, cops, prosecutors and judges) in some way after waiting months/years....

....OR you can not let yourself be a victim in the 1st place and not have to worry about dealing with any of it.



Easy to talk about a subject knowing little about it. Imagine that you have a pilot with max align skills, mid-grade nomad set, faction inertial stabs in lows, a web alt but you get bumped just once undocking in a HS 1,0 system.
Throth
Doomheim
#860 - 2015-09-01 17:19:23 UTC
Estevan Valladares wrote:
Yeah, yeah. For the entirety of EVE existance people come with delusions of importance brought from the experience of other games or other deluded people.

And if you really know EVE, you know this was never a solo or casual friendly place, EVER.

But you can try to indulge on self pity as long as you like. People does that all the time.

"Oh, I lost stuff, the game is not what it used to be."
"Oh, they exploded my ship and I did nothing, I gonna quit."
"Oh, they were mean in the chat and ccp didnt do nothing, I gonna quit."

And other some such "everyone has to make me the epic hero in this game every other game does".

There is always one of those around.


To the guys that quote the "entirety of Eve existence" from their toons that thave exitsted since 2015, use a toon that would be able to back that experience up, or STFU. You make my lawls hurt.