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[Galatea] First batch of sov capture iterations

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Author
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#381 - 2015-08-19 13:58:41 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
*trying too hard*
Good lord you are butthurt. What happened? You lose a freighter or something?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Tactical Farmers
#382 - 2015-08-19 13:59:42 UTC
Tallardar wrote:


It's not a sharp drop, but it's certainly been peetering out over the past 6 months compared to previous years.

http://puu.sh/jGWlo/5fe24d1b4d.png

That said it's still been an issue that's dated back to 2014.

which is exactly my point, the decline doesn't have anything to do with fozzisov, like some people are trying to present
i think with every patch that has a controversial change people point to that graph and say 'see, the numbers are dropping because of X change'
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#383 - 2015-08-19 14:02:06 UTC
Tallardar wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
I agree, null has been stagnant, that's why we've all agreed that a change is needed. Unfortunately that change is seemingly an attempt to make it even less likely that a large scale battle will occur.


Right, except no one was close to doing that nor trying to for over a year before the sov changes came out anyway.

Fozziesov isn't the sole reason those battles aren't occurring. The players have to be willing to throw their fleets at one another, and presently it appears that's not happening because of a lack of value in winning whatever systems or regions. Since the current sov system is less than 8 weeks old, I'm willing to give CCP time to implement changes to make the systems valuable enough in terms of natural resources.

That should have been done first before this tweak to Fozziesov though.
Right... so surely if big battles = good and people aren't creating big battles, then the best course of action is to make changes that push people to have big battles, for example shifting moon goo around. Rather, they've actually increased null income a bit and made it easier to fortress up in a single location while encouraging small scale battles over the large scale ones.

Let's face it, all the core fozziesov mechanics have done is turned "mass structure shooting" into "mini structure mining". The rest has basically retained the status quo.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#384 - 2015-08-19 14:03:07 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
(and one of two entities in top10 which does not pad their killboard on helpless freighters in hisec)

Ladies and men, the ulterior motive. This poster can safely be ignored.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#385 - 2015-08-19 14:04:15 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
Tallardar wrote:


It's not a sharp drop, but it's certainly been peetering out over the past 6 months compared to previous years.

http://puu.sh/jGWlo/5fe24d1b4d.png

That said it's still been an issue that's dated back to 2014.

which is exactly my point, the decline doesn't have anything to do with fozzisov, like some people are trying to present
i think with every patch that has a controversial change people point to that graph and say 'see, the numbers are dropping because of X change'
Of course it does. It mostly began around the time they announced upcoming changes to sov and nuked force projection, then in more recent times has accelerated following "sov mining 1.0". Remembers, these impacts will first be seen when they announce the changes, not when they release them.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Tactical Farmers
#386 - 2015-08-19 14:07:42 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

Shocked ... Wut? Are you sure you're looking at the right stats? Take a look at EVE-offline YTD 2015. Even the peaks in July and August are at best on par with the average for the year so far.

that's exactly what i'm looking at. it's been declining for the whole year, with a bigger than usual drop end of may and then sort of hovering stable since then. so if anything - we should blame the overview changes for the 'sharp drop'

or we could blame dominion sov for the constant decline since way before that

although we can't really tell from that graph whether the drop is at related to null sec, for all we know it could be high sec carebears leaving cause they don't get shiny new stuff while ccp makes null sec changes that they don't really care about.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#387 - 2015-08-19 14:08:12 UTC
Reagalan wrote:
Won't do jack **** to a system that is fundamentally and critically flawed and unsalvageable.

Until you get off of this "small gang" and "local conflict" soapbox the decline of Eve will continue. We didn't sign up for small gang impermanent bullshit and we detest your attempts to force this playstyle upon us.


Who is "we"? Are you trying to speak for me? Because I disagree.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Tactical Farmers
#388 - 2015-08-19 14:10:04 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Remembers, these impacts will first be seen when they announce the changes, not when they release them.


that's a good point, although i don't think that this is the actual reason for numbers decline
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#389 - 2015-08-19 14:11:41 UTC
Now let's see another example of gewn tears we all love so much!

Mischa Gau'ss Tesla wrote:
From my point of view, fozzie sov has just been a miss for now:
Before it, taking a system was starting a war, putting major fleets, firepower, a lot of man and effort on taking big objectives. Taking a system was something, you had to fight for it... Now, people just come with one or two fast ships and orbit a sov structure 250k off... no fighting, no strategy, no effort.

Ummmm... have you tried that in, you know, system people actually live in?
And if you're not using that system, you don't need to own it. Working as intended.

Mischa Gau'ss Tesla wrote:
What i liked and still like in eve is it's variety, and a thing that has been removed by fozzie is the actual BIG part of eve, two (or more) alliances fighting in huge fleets to get control of space. This is the so called blobbing, which is, even if you don't like it, a way of playing. Small gang always existed in ganking, factional warfare,... big fight just tend to disappear, just like dread, titans and other carriers will become useless (which is a shame, fighting around those ships is interesting, the fact they need support fleets making giving the fight a great aspect and making coordination critical).

"BAWW NOBODY FIGHTS MAH BLOOB BLOOB"
Why don't you try deploying on someone's staging system and see if there'll be no major fight for it. Hint: gudfait in 3...2...1...

Mischa Gau'ss Tesla wrote:
Empires where build by man followed by a thousands, not by some lonely pilot orbiting in a system. People like TLOTR because of it's big epic fights, star wars because of the huge fleets fighting around the deathstar; and the efforts of Frodon and Luke were supported by a lot of lives, they did not just took the control by themselves!

Fozzie sov on an other hand offers good ideas, but in a bad way. If entosis was limited to the biggest classes of ships, if there were a risk to take to entosis a system then it could be good... fozzie sov just need to bring the meaning of war back to new eden, for now, it just takes the meaning of "run".

Frodo has captured the uncontested mt. Doom in 2v1 fight against Gollum, working as intended.
Fozziesov will be a war once alliances downsize to what they occupy. We'll come to burn Deklein then - and there will be a fight for every system in it. Unless you drop it like the fountain, that is.

Mischa Gau'ss Tesla wrote:
My suggestions:
- limit entosis to bigger ships (BC's ad over);
- bring back the fight, for example by giving "control points" when an ennemy entosis ship is destroyed, or just for destroying ennemies,... plenty of ideas can be used here, just think about it BEFORE releasing the new system...

What is bad in actual system:
- one lonely interceptor or recon can still entosis a system while being hard to catch... just because of speed and range;
- no fights for a system, in most of the case it is just a time attack;
- the actual system seems to not have been thought through...

Oh and before some whiners say it: yes, i'm from the imperium/cfc, and yes, I see blobbing as a way of playing, and yes, number is a force, that i think should be the most important in a mmo (MASSIVELY MULTIplayer online ;) ).

Ty for your reading! o7


Suggestions are just copy from the propagoonda and not worth reading.

But the tears! "qq we cannot use numbers qq give me ez numbers F1 win qq". I wonder what is stopping those number from spreading out and occupying all those systems to chase the trolls away and grind ratings? Can't handle the trollceptor?
Keep the delicious tears coming.
Icycle
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#390 - 2015-08-19 14:14:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Icycle
I think 4k m/s is very little. I mean the average frigate that I see that are used to catch entosis ships does about 7 or 8k m/s. They use a local booster tengu. It means entosis ships will be practically always get caught with this changes. Whatever happened to give it a chance or one should not be able to catch everything they see? I would request to give it more speed. Twise as slow is really slow imo.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#391 - 2015-08-19 14:18:47 UTC
Icycle wrote:
I think 4k m/s is very little. I mean the average frigate that I see that are used to catch entosis ships does about 7 or 8k m/s. They use a local booster tengu. It means entosis ships will be practically always get caught with this changes. Whatever happened to give it a chance or one should not be able to catch everything they see? I would request to give it more speed. Twise as slow is really slow imo.


+1 to that. To hell with this speed limit. Occupied systems are essentially invulnerable to trollceptors, and if the system isn't occupied, it shouldn't be owned.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#392 - 2015-08-19 14:20:18 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Shocked ... Wut? Are you sure you're looking at the right stats? Take a look at EVE-offline YTD 2015. Even the peaks in July and August are at best on par with the average for the year so far.
that's exactly what i'm looking at. it's been declining for the whole year, with a bigger than usual drop end of may and then sort of hovering stable since then. so if anything - we should blame the overview changes for the 'sharp drop'
So you believe it was around may the drop was bigger than usual? I wonder what dev blog was released in may. We've know the changes are coming for a long time and people have been gradually dropping off since then. Announcements of the mechanics then implementation are more than likely driving the decline.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Duramora Kado
Doomheim
#393 - 2015-08-19 14:22:55 UTC
This is a good start. I'd like to see this in action for sure...
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#394 - 2015-08-19 14:23:03 UTC
Icycle wrote:
I think 4k m/s is very little. I mean the average frigate that I see that are used to catch entosis ships does about 7 or 8k m/s. They use a local booster tengu. It means entosis ships will be practically always get caught with this changes. Whatever happened to give it a chance or one should not be able to catch everything they see? I would request to give it more speed. Twise as slow is really slow imo.
While I don't agree that these changes will cause that, that should be the case. The whole point of the entosis modules is it's supposed to show you have control of the grid. If you are firing the laser then "get caught" when trying to run away, you obviously don't have that. You should bring a sizable enough force to realistically contest sov. That's how conflict is driven.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Wolfensrevenge
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#395 - 2015-08-19 14:26:29 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Wolfensrevenge wrote:
BTW i found a way to stop troll T3's that are interdiction nullified and cloaky...But I was warned that i would be banned if i continued....Thanks CCP fun times.


Good job for discovering a decloaking tactic that's been around (and bannable if it affects server performance) since 2006. It has nothing to do with fozziesov and nothing to do with this thread.





It might not be new but the fact that these PVP immune ships can take SOV is new and its a real problem when trying to (control) space.
Ludi Burek
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#396 - 2015-08-19 14:28:14 UTC
I wouldn't be surprised if Vermin Supreme was a special consultant on this project.
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#397 - 2015-08-19 14:28:27 UTC
*MoA claims that the broken changes which allowed sov trolling without commitment and being able to avoid a fight is great for PvP
*Then another MoA guy comes in and chimes about how being unable to run from a fight and getting required to commit in sov warfare is bad

10/10 comedy
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#398 - 2015-08-19 14:29:02 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Icycle wrote:
I think 4k m/s is very little. I mean the average frigate that I see that are used to catch entosis ships does about 7 or 8k m/s. They use a local booster tengu. It means entosis ships will be practically always get caught with this changes. Whatever happened to give it a chance or one should not be able to catch everything they see? I would request to give it more speed. Twise as slow is really slow imo.
While I don't agree that these changes will cause that, that should be the case. The whole point of the entosis modules is it's supposed to show you have control of the grid. If you are firing the laser then "get caught" when trying to run away, you obviously don't have that. You should bring a sizable enough force to realistically contest sov. That's how conflict is driven.


Defender brings someone on grid - entosis ship runs away and doesn't entosis anything anymore. Defender wins, working as intended.
With a speedlimit defender will always win by having a variation of trollceptor 5 jumps away. Not working as intended.

You should bring a sizable force to contest sov - totally agree. However, the definition of sov has changed to occupancy. To bring down an occupied sov, the sizable force is needed. Bringing down an uncontested sov shouldn't require such force.
Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Tactical Farmers
#399 - 2015-08-19 14:31:42 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
So you believe it was around may the drop was bigger than usual? I wonder what dev blog was released in may. We've know the changes are coming for a long time and people have been gradually dropping off since then. Announcements of the mechanics then implementation are more than likely driving the decline.

the drop was end of may, not beginning. are you implying it took eve community a whole month to read it and decide they aren't going to play?

here are the reasons why i think that blog isn't related to drop at all:

1) 1 month time difference
2) people haven't actually started complaining until well after. probably until the competition started on duality (at least as far as i'm aware).
3) since that drop the numbers haven't been dropping further.

point 3 actually a very good indicator, as you can see that once the new sov was released and people actually got to play it, they didn't quit as a result of it. if fozziesov was responsible for the drop in may, i would expect even bigger drop after the thing actually got released and people got to to play with it and figured they don't like it.

also there is #4 that i have mentioned before - we don't even know if the drop is in the null sec population, other areas, or across the board.



Wolfensrevenge
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#400 - 2015-08-19 14:33:47 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Wolfensrevenge wrote:
BTW i found a way to stop troll T3's that are interdiction nullified and cloaky...But I was warned that i would be banned if i continued....Thanks CCP fun times.


Good job for discovering a decloaking tactic that's been around (and bannable if it affects server performance) since 2006. It has nothing to do with fozziesov and nothing to do with this thread.




It might not be new but the fact that PvP immune ships can now troll/take sov is new and its a problem that needs fixed...The fix should be no nullified ships can take sov peroid. That way an alliance can actually (control) the space they are living in.