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How would EVE break if we removed skills altogether?

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Author
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#1 - 2015-07-29 12:32:00 UTC
Here is my opinion at this juncture: EVE would be different, but not broken, and the market for characters would dry up except for people whose skill is in sculpting particularly attractive avatars.

Take, for example, people who participate in industry of one form or another. There are a bunch of skills which act as "soft" barriers to entry into the profession, but the real barriers to entry are the hard barriers of "knowing what the heck you are doing," "planning three months in advance," and "being able to carry out the plan." The knowledge of how to set up processes in-game, model those processes, and include the externalities such as logistics, to generate a profit from the time invested, are the real skills required for doing industry. Skill points in appropriate skills are a trivial impediment.

There's a rule of thumb that you don't even bother trying industry until you have PE5. I figure this is the same kind of "hurry up and wait" scenario as learning skills were back in the day. Why shouldn't a new player be able to participate in industry? They are going to make many mistakes as they learn the ropes: why should they be punished even more with the inability to compete even when they know what they're doing, unless they wait a month or so for PE5 or buy an industrial character?

What about the combat pilot who flies in an alliance? There are currently artificial barriers to entry: "you must have this exact skill set, be able to fly this exact ship and fitting". That pilot also has to know how to not derp their way through a red gate, target the right target, shoot on cue, etc. Skill points in appropriate skills are an impediment.

There's a rule of thumb about training "support skills" such as Engineering, Electronics, yada yada. Would the game really be broken if, instead of simply gifting new characters these skills we took the skills away completely?

With skills gone, the choices of modules for ship fitting come down to fitting capacity, financial capacity, and availability. There are still decisions to be made, but no longer will you end up flying a meta-3 fitted battlecruiser simply because you didn't have the skills to fly a tech-2 fitted navy cruiser yet.

Some people will miss the little reward of "Skill training completed." Perhaps people will feel cheated out of some illusion of "character development" which they have been conned into from playing single-player RPGs for too long. You don't have levels in Quake, but it's still a fun game. You just get better weapons, and harder enemies. EVE is not an RPG, it's a sci-fi simulator attempting to provide the world an Objectivist reality: you are the product of your choices and efforts. You are poor because you are bad.

Why let an outdated paradigm such as character skills get in the way of people discovering just how bad and useless they really are?
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2015-07-29 12:40:18 UTC
It's not an RPG anymore without skills, if everyone can fly and do everything from day 1.

My opinion is that the biggest newbie turnoff in this game remains the +stat implants. It drives newbies away from entry-level PvP because they're too expensive for a new player to risk losing, but at the same time, anyone with any experience with other RPGs or even RTSes will invariably come to the conclusion that shoving in +4s ASAP is the correct long-term choice. Of course this results in them getting stuck with the relatively boring PvE and quitting.

They should absolutely get rid of +1 through +4 implants and just give every character +4 to all stats. +5s can remain in the game as +1s for people that want to spend a huge amount of ISK on a tiny advantage.
Suneai
Fredegar Hohenstaufen Corporation
Holy Arumbian Empire
#3 - 2015-07-29 12:46:20 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
It's not an RPG anymore without skills, if everyone can fly and do everything from day 1.

My opinion is that the biggest newbie turnoff in this game remains the +stat implants. It drives newbies away from entry-level PvP because they're too expensive for a new player to risk losing, but at the same time, anyone with any experience with other RPGs or even RTSes will invariably come to the conclusion that shoving in +4s ASAP is the correct long-term choice. Of course this results in them getting stuck with the relatively boring PvE and quitting.

They should absolutely get rid of +1 through +4 implants and just give every character +4 to all stats. +5s can remain in the game as +1s for people that want to spend a huge amount of ISK on a tiny advantage.
CCP have noted that they're looking into doing away with the attribute system in favour of something more appropriate, which will include a complete rework of the attribute boosting implants. So with any luck somewhere down the line, your wish may come true.

Here's the topic where CCP Rise mentions it most recently:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=432569&find=unread
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#4 - 2015-07-29 13:31:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Suneai wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
It's not an RPG anymore without skills, if everyone can fly and do everything from day 1.

My opinion is that the biggest newbie turnoff in this game remains the +stat implants. It drives newbies away from entry-level PvP because they're too expensive for a new player to risk losing, but at the same time, anyone with any experience with other RPGs or even RTSes will invariably come to the conclusion that shoving in +4s ASAP is the correct long-term choice. Of course this results in them getting stuck with the relatively boring PvE and quitting.

They should absolutely get rid of +1 through +4 implants and just give every character +4 to all stats. +5s can remain in the game as +1s for people that want to spend a huge amount of ISK on a tiny advantage.
CCP have noted that they're looking into doing away with the attribute system in favour of something more appropriate, which will include a complete rework of the attribute boosting implants. So with any luck somewhere down the line, your wish may come true.

Here's the topic where CCP Rise mentions it most recently:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=432569&find=unread


If it does then I'll be done with this game. Non-evolutional games would only appeal to a very small crowd.
Suneai
Fredegar Hohenstaufen Corporation
Holy Arumbian Empire
#5 - 2015-07-29 13:39:42 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
If it does then I'll be done with this game. None Evolution games would only appeal to a very small crowd.
I think you misunderstood my post, I didn't mean the skills were going.
Everyone would still need to train for their skills, it's just the attributes that determine how fast they train that's being reviewed for improvement.
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-07-29 13:51:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmer Jones
Woooot, space coffins (titans)for everyone! Max mining for everyone! Max gun skills, sheild and armor.
Let's go the extra mile! Having to grind for isk is sooooo boring, let's make everything 1 isk!
And get rid of all but the top tier mods. Get rid if all t1 ships!

How about no.

Skills keep individuals just that. Individual. You want something you skill towards it or buy it.
Seems to be a stealth "give us remapping" post. Eve is one of the only games where you are a product of your choices, because those choices are permanent, barring biomassing. All other games give you remaps, and your idea goes the little bit further.

While you're at it, why not ask for only one model of ship, and only one avatar. You know, the one you see on bathroom signs at the mall? Yes just one, because you can get the dress yourself if you really feel you need it. See how individual everyone is? Happy now?

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#7 - 2015-07-29 13:58:37 UTC
For me, it just wouldn't be the same game without skill training. I'm not saying I would quit, but I would certainly have less incentive to stay subscribed. For me, real life frequently interrupts my ability to actually play Eve. I'm on my second deployment since I began playing Eve. In the past 8.5 years, I've also had numerous time periods where I was kept away from game for a month or two here and there. I've been continuously subscribed that whole time - paying cash for one year subscriptions - because I could continue "getting better" at Eve even if I could not actually play the game.

I would estimate that with some careful planning, I could have saved myself 30-50% of the money I have invested in Eve if I was not interested in keeping skill queues going continuously.

The ability to come back to a better character has also kept me coming back to Eve, even after getting burned out and going off to do something else for a bit.

The only things you can do if RL keeps you from undocking is play skill queue online, EFT online, post on the forums, and read about Eve. I certainly would not stay subscribed just to be able to post on the forums.

Attribute implants absolutely need to go away and be replaced with more implants which benefit the player only when he is undocked and doing something in a spaceship. I've said that in enough different threads, including one which is already linked in this thread, so I will leave it at that.

Quote:
There's a rule of thumb about training "support skills" such as Engineering, Electronics, yada yada. Would the game really be broken if, instead of simply gifting new characters these skills we took the skills away completely?


Sure. The stats provided by those skills should be baked into the hulls from the start. It would make balancing a ton easier.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Lu Ziffer
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2015-07-29 14:09:50 UTC
Implants never stoped people from PVP cloneprices did and since they are removed nothing stops anyone from PVPing.
You can setup a +5 clone to skill fast and a +2 or +3 for PVP and a lot of people do not even use them in their PVP clones.

No to skill removal for obvious reasons.
It saves players from making stupid mistakes like spending 100 plex on a titan and loosing it in 3minutes.
If you want a high SP charcter 3days into the game, go the character market and buy one you will have no idea how to use it properly. The EVE Communty will happily abuse you for it and then you will leave most lilely because we are so awful.
I guess who does this has done the same in other games and does not understand MMOs, which you learn by playing together and having fun together.

You can have fun in EVE with a 100k SP character there is no need to remove skills.
Nyu Kaminari
Doomheim
#9 - 2015-07-29 15:32:42 UTC

Skill training is largely the reason why this game is so attractive to me.

A new player experiences a lot of his/her learning curve through the process of training. As an example: Turrets. How is a player going to slowly become accustomed to transversal velocity without ever questioning what it is? The player would soon realize there are training manuals such as "motion prediction", "trajectory analysis" and "sharp shooter" and would then begin to inquire further.
They may ask for help in local or friend other players to help them get started but first, they have to know what questions to ask.

A realism attached to ideas such as this is ever prevalent as the participant applies his growing knowledge in PVE combat situations and as skills progress in real time, masters them such that he/she then engages more in PVP. There are many, many more examples like this but it would be a like writing a novel to list all of them.

This game prepares you in all the right ways. You may find yourself waiting for quite a while to say... fly a black ops, but would you want inexperienced pilots in your fleet? They have to know the value of what they fly first and it can take a very very long time for them to realize this (much like the training it takes to fly them)

I am all for the way it is done currently, however... I understand your frustration when using alts. There should be some sort of grandfathering system that your main can grant alts (Category with most SP trained) reducing the SP training time for those 25% - 50%. Maybe. Just an Idea.

Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#10 - 2015-07-29 21:29:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Xe'Cara'eos
since changes regarding both med clones and jump clone standings, I have gotten into more fights than ever, myself - a risk averse carebear (normally)
I normally skill with a +5, have a backup clone with +4's (smartbombing HS BS's), a +3 that I do the odd bit of WH/lowsec roams, and a blank clone for nullsec roams - the only skill requirements for these is now Cyb V (for the +5's), and infomorph psych III for the clones.
a newb can get a set of +1's or +2's in a few days of fairly solid play (ventures are handy btw), then whilst they're acquiring the money for +5's they've got plenty of time to skill up to that level, and get multiple clones for purposes like those mentioned above
so - don't use those as your platform, though I agree that learning implants are probably sub-optimal for getting noobs in.

as for how EVE would break if we removed skills - it'd be like turning everyone in the world into [insert person here] how boring, how blase, how bleurgh!

NO!
-1

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.

Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2015-07-29 22:31:02 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
It's not an RPG anymore without skills, if everyone can fly and do everything from day 1.

My opinion is that the biggest newbie turnoff in this game remains the +stat implants. It drives newbies away from entry-level PvP because they're too expensive for a new player to risk losing, but at the same time, anyone with any experience with other RPGs or even RTSes will invariably come to the conclusion that shoving in +4s ASAP is the correct long-term choice. Of course this results in them getting stuck with the relatively boring PvE and quitting.

They should absolutely get rid of +1 through +4 implants and just give every character +4 to all stats. +5s can remain in the game as +1s for people that want to spend a huge amount of ISK on a tiny advantage.


There are no newbies in entry-level pvp. "Entry level" for pvp currently lies at about 50-70 million skill points, at which point the character is not a newbie.

Maybe we could have pvp for newbies if this suggestion passed, because right now we don't. Implants are not going to solve this problem.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#12 - 2015-07-29 22:54:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Orca Platypus wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
It's not an RPG anymore without skills, if everyone can fly and do everything from day 1.

My opinion is that the biggest newbie turnoff in this game remains the +stat implants. It drives newbies away from entry-level PvP because they're too expensive for a new player to risk losing, but at the same time, anyone with any experience with other RPGs or even RTSes will invariably come to the conclusion that shoving in +4s ASAP is the correct long-term choice. Of course this results in them getting stuck with the relatively boring PvE and quitting.

They should absolutely get rid of +1 through +4 implants and just give every character +4 to all stats. +5s can remain in the game as +1s for people that want to spend a huge amount of ISK on a tiny advantage.


There are no newbies in entry-level pvp. "Entry level" for pvp currently lies at about 50-70 million skill points, at which point the character is not a newbie.

Maybe we could have pvp for newbies if this suggestion passed, because right now we don't. Implants are not going to solve this problem.



RvB says hi.

So does FW.


And if one looks hard enough they will find many lower SP crews out there. Is it the "grandeur" of the "elite" crews...no. Is that grandeur really grand, that elite so elite? In a worst case....not really.

I had more fun in some "scrub" crews than my time in some of the established crews. Pvp just for fun and didn't need a 5 paragraph order and planning in place to make a rl General go damn, that planning is impressing even me......it had its allure really. Well that and no post action comm ass chewings for the nights you just go wtf....lets get freaky.

Why did you engage a fight you had had little/no chance of winning? Thought I(we) had em and we said wth, lets go for it. you know...the whole pvp is supposed to be fun and interesting aspect.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#13 - 2015-07-29 23:00:41 UTC
Nyu Kaminari wrote:
A new player experiences a lot of his/her learning curve through the process of training.


My experience as a new player with the training system was: "I want to fly a Merlin. It requires these skills. Okay, queue that skill, now go play some other game for a few days."

Nyu Kaminari wrote:
As an example: Turrets. How is a player going to slowly become accustomed to transversal velocity without ever questioning what it is? The player would soon realize there are training manuals such as "motion prediction", "trajectory analysis" and "sharp shooter" and would then begin to inquire further.


What if the new player just sees "Motion Prediction" as another skill book that needs to be acquired and injected? They don't care about what mechanic it encapsulates, only that using it makes their character better. How many people playing the game actually get into the min/maxing side of things, rather than simply figuring out at which distance they can orbit targets to get the best damage by trial and error? There is no such thing as "15km from target, moving in a circular orbit" when you get into an actual fight. All the theory goes out the window.

Nyu Kaminari wrote:
This game prepares you in all the right ways. You may find yourself waiting for quite a while to say... fly a black ops, but would you want inexperienced pilots in your fleet?


How do I get experience at flying black ops ships before I can fly a black ops ship? I think a large part of the argument about "people who buy skills don't know how to use them" is simply that the people who buy skills don't have the in-game experience that is gathered over dozens of fights and losses. It's not that you don't know how to use the skills you bought, it's that you don't know how to cooperate in a fleet, you don't know the tricks of the trade when it comes to jumping a blops into enemy territory, and you don't have the experience of doing things under duress. Nothing to do with skill points at all.

Nyu Kaminari wrote:
They have to know the value of what they fly first and it can take a very very long time for them to realize this (much like the training it takes to fly them)


Exactly. Nothing to do with skill points. Everything to do with in-game experience.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#14 - 2015-07-29 23:09:16 UTC
Lu Ziffer wrote:
No to skill removal for obvious reasons.
It saves players from making stupid mistakes like spending 100 plex on a titan and loosing it in 3minutes.


No, they just make the mistake of buying a titan pilot and titan for 105 plex and losing it all in 3 minutes.

I don't see that having to train skills stops people making stupid mistakes, it just limits the stupid they can accomplish without buying a higher skill character.

I can understand that you are trying to protect your character selling business, but pretending that you can stop people making stupid mistakes by putting expensive hurdles in their path is underestimating the power of stupid.

[quote=Lu ZifferI guess who does this has done the same in other games and does not understand MMOs, which you learn by playing together and having fun together.

You can have fun in EVE with a 100k SP character there is no need to remove skills.[/quote]

Well, my argument is that you can have fun regardless of the skills. The skills only act as an artificial barrier between you and the fun you'd like to have. You either play the game for two years or buy a pilot from the bazaar which can do the things you want to do. Then when your tastes change, you have to play for another year or buy a different pilot so you can participate in the activity you were interested in.

I think the game itself would be more interesting if there were no artificial barriers to entry into a particular aspect of gameplay. We already have social barriers: you have to meet the right people who are on at the right time. It's no use having friends who share your interests when they are always half a day away in play time.

How much fun is it to see a group putting an operation together, ask to come along, only to find out that you're missing that month-long skill that is required to fly the ships they want in that fleet? What do you do for that month besides play some other aspect of the game solo?
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2015-07-30 01:23:47 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
RvB says hi.

So does FW.

RvB is a gewn hisec pet.
Sitting in a plex stabbed and ready to bolt is not pvp.
If you try to pvp on a below-50-million-SP character, you'll lose pathetically, SP is just too strong force multiplier.


Zan Shiro wrote:
And if one looks hard enough they will find many lower SP crews out there. Is it the "grandeur" of the "elite" crews...no. Is that grandeur really grand, that elite so elite? In a worst case....not really.

I had more fun in some "scrub" crews than my time in some of the established crews. Pvp just for fun and didn't need a 5 paragraph order and planning in place to make a rl General go damn, that planning is impressing even me......it had its allure really. Well that and no post action comm ass chewings for the nights you just go wtf....lets get freaky.

Why did you engage a fight you had had little/no chance of winning? Thought I(we) had em and we said wth, lets go for it. you know...the whole pvp is supposed to be fun and interesting aspect.

Yeah, like BRAVE, the living proof of the fact that unless your blob has enough SP it will be farmed easily by anyone who has enough SP.

Eve combat pvp has no fun and interesting aspect, it's a SP vs SP comparison, and if yours is lower, well, go train a few more years, then maybe you can get equal sometime in 2019.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#16 - 2015-07-30 01:34:38 UTC
EVE's skill system is the fundamental RPG portion of the game. Removing that would pretty much break the entire game. I can't say no hard enough.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#17 - 2015-07-30 02:06:27 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
EVE's skill system is the fundamental RPG portion of the game. Removing that would pretty much break the entire game. I can't say no hard enough.


How would removal of skills prevent you ganking miners for fun and profit?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#18 - 2015-07-30 02:17:17 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
EVE's skill system is the fundamental RPG portion of the game. Removing that would pretty much break the entire game. I can't say no hard enough.


How would removal of skills prevent you ganking miners for fun and profit?


Ad hominem on the first reply? I expected better, even from the likes of you.

The skill system is actually one of EVE's best features in my opinion, and is incredibly casual friendly. Progression, unlike most MMOs, is not solely determined by playtime, which means that even a father of two in active military service like myself can log in when he has time and enjoy the game.

That is not just a good thing, that's a great thing.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#19 - 2015-07-30 02:29:12 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The skill system is actually one of EVE's best features in my opinion, and is incredibly casual friendly. Progression, unlike most MMOs, is not solely determined by playtime …


But if the skills are not there to progress, does that make your game broken?

Does a game need to provide you with tokens of "progression" to make it worth playing?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#20 - 2015-07-30 02:30:06 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ad hominem on the first reply? I expected better, even from the likes of you.


Apologies for confusing you with CODE.
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