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How would EVE break if we removed skills altogether?

First post
Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#21 - 2015-07-30 02:31:50 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The skill system is actually one of EVE's best features in my opinion, and is incredibly casual friendly. Progression, unlike most MMOs, is not solely determined by playtime …


But if the skills are not there to progress, does that make your game broken?

Does a game need to provide you with tokens of "progression" to make it worth playing?


The skills do provide meaningful progression, not just tokens. There's more meaningful progression in EVE than in any two contemporary MMOs.

I suspect that's why you want to get rid of it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#22 - 2015-07-30 02:41:44 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ad hominem on the first reply? I expected better, even from the likes of you.


Apologies for confusing you with CODE.


Mara was not making an ad hominem attack. It was a legitimate question. If I were to say that you are being a thin-skinned jerk, that would be an ad hominem attack.

If all someone wants out of Eve is to kill other people, then the skill training system adds nothing too it. FPS games do not usually have skill training. That is not why I am in Eve, however, I want something more than just killing for fun and profit. The character progression is an important part of being committed to the world of Eve.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#23 - 2015-07-30 02:44:00 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:

Mara was not making an ad hominem attack.


Yes, they were. They were attacking me, not addressing the statement I made. Which is typical of the OP, I might add.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#24 - 2015-07-30 03:13:40 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The skill system is actually one of EVE's best features in my opinion, and is incredibly casual friendly. Progression, unlike most MMOs, is not solely determined by playtime …


But if the skills are not there to progress, does that make your game broken?

Does a game need to provide you with tokens of "progression" to make it worth playing?



The skills do provide meaningful progression, not just tokens. There's more meaningful progression in EVE than in any two contemporary MMOs.


I agree with this part. The skills do provide meaningful progression.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-07-30 06:06:17 UTC
Here's an example: suddenly skills are removed and everyone can do everything. Now loads of pilots go and run my favourite sleeper caches and the entire market for the loot from those disintegrates (except for the fixed price blue loot). The same would happen in every area. 100's of perfect inventors flooding the tech 2 market, perfect miners and refiners flooding the ore and minerals market etc etc.

It would literally destroy the heart of the game as it stands as chooces and planning would have very little meaning anymore.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#26 - 2015-07-30 08:18:31 UTC
Lu Ziffer wrote:
Implants never stoped people from PVP cloneprices did and since they are removed nothing stops anyone from PVPing.
You can setup a +5 clone to skill fast and a +2 or +3 for PVP and a lot of people do not even use them in their PVP clones.

No to skill removal for obvious reasons.
It saves players from making stupid mistakes like spending 100 plex on a titan and loosing it in 3minutes.
If you want a high SP charcter 3days into the game, go the character market and buy one you will have no idea how to use it properly. The EVE Communty will happily abuse you for it and then you will leave most lilely because we are so awful.
I guess who does this has done the same in other games and does not understand MMOs, which you learn by playing together and having fun together.

You can have fun in EVE with a 100k SP character there is no need to remove skills.


Yep, I started off ninja looting....sigh those days were a blast.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#27 - 2015-07-30 08:35:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Orca Platypus wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
RvB says hi.

So does FW.

RvB is a gewn hisec pet.
Sitting in a plex stabbed and ready to bolt is not pvp.
If you try to pvp on a below-50-million-SP character, you'll lose pathetically, SP is just too strong force multiplier.


Zan Shiro wrote:
And if one looks hard enough they will find many lower SP crews out there. Is it the "grandeur" of the "elite" crews...no. Is that grandeur really grand, that elite so elite? In a worst case....not really.

I had more fun in some "scrub" crews than my time in some of the established crews. Pvp just for fun and didn't need a 5 paragraph order and planning in place to make a rl General go damn, that planning is impressing even me......it had its allure really. Well that and no post action comm ass chewings for the nights you just go wtf....lets get freaky.

Why did you engage a fight you had had little/no chance of winning? Thought I(we) had em and we said wth, lets go for it. you know...the whole pvp is supposed to be fun and interesting aspect.

Yeah, like BRAVE, the living proof of the fact that unless your blob has enough SP it will be farmed easily by anyone who has enough SP.

Eve combat pvp has no fun and interesting aspect, it's a SP vs SP comparison, and if yours is lower, well, go train a few more years, then maybe you can get equal sometime in 2019.


Actually when I person learns PVP with low SP (10-20mill), by the time they reach 50 mill, they'd be at the top of the killboards. Why? Because humans adapts and the low SP pilot would naturally adapt by increasing their Player Skill to compensate for the lack of SP. So by the time the low SP char max out their core/tank/prop/gunnery/ and ship skills he/she would evolve into an Elite PVPer.

Anyways it's about time some one reports this garbage thread for Redundancy.
Lu Ziffer
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#28 - 2015-07-30 09:13:23 UTC
@Mara Rinn So your reason for removing skills is that they are a barrier if you flying a certain fleet setup.

That is true and that is why any decent community has entry fits.
I see a lot of players who just take fits from some websites or use coalition fits and they have no basic understanding of what they do. You have to tell them everything when to use a propmod when to switch ammo where to put ewar.
Its annoying if you are in a fleet and someone flys a fastlocking highalpha hurricane and they have absoluty no idea what they are doing .They do not understand that they should not shoot the primary because they are fleet defence and they forget to kill the dictor which then bubles the fleet if bombers come in they warp away instead of killing them.
If they are in a dictor they bubble the own fleet and in an ewar ship they are utterly useless.
It makes want to kill them and 6years ago if you would have behaved that bad you would have been killed by your own fleet witout reimburstment.

Skills give you a reason to learn what modifiers are on ship and when they are important and then it is still a long way to learn how to fly the ship but at least you have a basic idea.

If you want to learn basic pvp combat for a fastmoving fight you need 100-200hours just to know all the important ships, their popular fitsytheir basic combat roles and have a basic idea of what they are capable of.
Most people will need 3month just to learn this and then they would know nothing about skills, how to fit for PVE or industry or even how to fly their ship properly.

Most fun fleet I ever boosted was a FYF fleet(EWAR fleet) with 150pilots we disabled two fleets at once with meta3 fitted T1 ships and got no kills but we turned the battle. In this fleet we had a place for everyone and it was great fun.

It takes time to learn EVE and the skills help by showing you how the game works.

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2015-07-30 13:11:05 UTC
I don't really PLAY this game, so much as train skills. If the skill training went away, I might not resub.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Umino Iruka
#30 - 2015-07-30 15:24:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Umino Iruka
Training is one of the main reasons why why this game has so little people playing it (PEOPLE, not ACCOUNTS).

What every one of us players needs to ask ourselves, is: "Would I recommend EvE to a friend?"


The answers will vary from person to person of course, but the main problem is knowing that the person to whom you would recommend this game simply doesn't want to wait for a whole YEAR of training before he can do anything meaningful in the game.

People who tell new blood that skill points don't matter are full of **** either because they suck themselves or they are telling them this for a reason (blob recruitment for example). How do you explain a potential EvE player that it will take 6 months of training just to sort the BASICS (engineering/armor/shield/electronics/navigation/drone/probing skills), AND STILL HAVE HIM INTERESTED in playing the game (decent levels, not perfect)?

If a new player had someone experienced to advise him when starting out, the character would have some rudimentary training for a single ship at the beginning (maybe two) before remapping to intelligence+memory to start the 6 month grind to sort the basics. During this period the player will either rage quit or fly one or two ships with rudimentary skills until his teeth go numb which also leads to rage quitting. The few that don't rage quit are mentally scarred and tend to stay in EvE for a while.

If a new player didn't have anyone to help him out at the beginning, his 2 remaps are used up within first 2 weeks in most cases, he desperately tries training for a multitude of ships with **** skills all around and most likely **** remap and he will be paying for this initial mistake for YEARS to come. Great reason to keep playing, right?

Remove attributes and attribute implants all together, set the skills to train at best possible speed (as if specifically remapped for it and with +5 implants) and update the career agents to give skill levels for completing them, skills that reflect the career agent type.

Add more missions to career agents to reflect the different things that they are teaching/showing a new player (combat - damage dealing, combat - Ewar, combat - Logi, combat - tackle, industry - mining, industry - salvaging... and do the same with all other). Make it so that these career missions reward specific skill levels in the things that they "teach" so that a new player who finished the combat career mission arc ends up with level 4 skills across the board for fitting skills, navigation skills, drone skills, Ewar skills specific to the faction where he started as well as L4 frigate, destroyer and cruiser skills specific to the faction where he started and L4 gunnery/missile skills specifics to the faction where he started.

Do the same for industry, trade and exploration that would lead to earning L4 skills related to the career being "studied" so that miners end up in a t1 mining barge for example...

Put a restriction to obtaining these skills so that trials don't get them until they subscribe to prevent trial account abuse.


What would happen if a player completed all of these new career arcs? The training of basics would be cut down considerably and the pilot who came out of this "school of careers" would be ready to set out into the world of EvE without being months away from anything and everything he wanted to do, would be free to try many different aspects of the game without wasting months of training JUST TO TRY IT OUT and possibly end up wasting that training time because it didn't feel fun or whatever the reason.

Such a pilot would still have to train to polish his non perfect skills, but the initial gap from getting into any aspect of EvE would be bridged and where ever this pilot went, he could be a productive member of his corp in every way opposed to the current state of new bros who discover very soon that they are months away from anything they want to do. Not to mention training times would be much more managable without having a 3 year remapping plan from the beginning with +5's plugged in as soon as possible (training cybernetics feels like an extent of the old learning skills training).
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2015-07-30 16:09:34 UTC
Umino Iruka wrote:
..How do you explain a potential EvE player that it will take 6 months of training just to sort the BASICS (engineering/armor/shield/electronics/navigation/drone/probing skills), AND STILL HAVE HIM INTERESTED in playing the game (decent levels, not perfect)....


You don't because this is rubbish. I started just over 2.5 years ago and was running level IV missions alongside a corpie on my 3rd day in my incursus (great fun too). I was mining in a barge inside a month, building control towers from PI inside 3 months, running any level mission I wanted during that time and learning the basics of exploration.

That covers 4 of the main career paths and made me enough ISK to continually PLEX. It takes a player willing to think and learn to play EvE, not an instant gratification 'Give me a Battleship from the start' type of player (incidentally I only flew a BS once, didn't like it and sent it back to the shop :D ).

Your 6 months benchmark is just utterly wrong.
Umino Iruka
#32 - 2015-07-30 16:28:24 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Umino Iruka wrote:
..How do you explain a potential EvE player that it will take 6 months of training just to sort the BASICS (engineering/armor/shield/electronics/navigation/drone/probing skills), AND STILL HAVE HIM INTERESTED in playing the game (decent levels, not perfect)....


You don't because this is rubbish. I started just over 2.5 years ago and was running level IV missions alongside a corpie on my 3rd day in my incursus (great fun too). I was mining in a barge inside a month, building control towers from PI inside 3 months, running any level mission I wanted during that time and learning the basics of exploration.

That covers 4 of the main career paths and made me enough ISK to continually PLEX. It takes a player willing to think and learn to play EvE, not an instant gratification 'Give me a Battleship from the start' type of player (incidentally I only flew a BS once, didn't like it and sent it back to the shop :D ).

Your 6 months benchmark is just utterly wrong.



Yeah that's a great story and perfectly doable if you're playing 24/7 which is not the case with most people.

My 6 months benchmark is completely true. Go and make a training plan in Evemon for just basic stuff that I mentioned above, you will get a plan OVER 6 months long without even doing any spaceship command training.

The only rubbish thing here is you flapping your mouth without anything to back it up.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2015-07-30 16:39:18 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
How would EVE break if we removed skills altogether?
The people who hang their hat on "I've got 200M SP" would have an aneurysm.

There would be would a tidal wave of "EvE is dead!" posts on reddit/GD.

Then life would go on.

Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I started just over 2.5 years ago and was running level IV missions alongside a corpie on my 3rd day in my incursus (great fun too).
Let's be fair here. It would be far more accurate to say you tagged along and watched your corpie do L4s, while struggling to salvage the wrecks they couldn't be bothered with.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The skill system is actually one of EVE's best features in my opinion, and is incredibly casual friendly. Progression, unlike most MMOs, is not solely determined by playtime
And tying it to subbed time instead is better?
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2015-07-30 16:46:53 UTC
Umino Iruka wrote:


Yeah that's a great story and perfectly doable if you're playing 24/7 which is not the case with most people.

My 6 months benchmark is completely true. Go and make a training plan in Evemon for just basic stuff that I mentioned above, you will get a plan OVER 6 months long without even doing any spaceship command training.

The only rubbish thing here is you flapping your mouth without anything to back it up.


Actually I flapped my fingers and it isn't a story but rather my actual experience of the game. I don't know what you've put into your EveMon plan but it isn't the skills I worked out for myself without EveMon.

I also never played 24/7

Out of interest I just added Sabre into my manufacturing alts EveMon. A touch over 27 days to get into the tech II destroyer hull and I know that sabre's are an awesome tackle ship. You didn't state perfect skills so just train every other supporting skill to IV and I'm sure that'll come in way under 6 months.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2015-07-30 16:51:25 UTC
Aerasia wrote:

Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I started just over 2.5 years ago and was running level IV missions alongside a corpie on my 3rd day in my incursus (great fun too).


Let's be fair here. It would be far more accurate to say you tagged along and watched your corpie do L4s, while struggling to salvage the wrecks they couldn't be bothered with.

...


Incorrect, I took out the frigs and destroyers before moving on to cruisers and adding my feeble dps to the BS kills at the end. I did my job in the frigate as I would in a roam to protect the battleship and sped up his isk/hr speed by a non-trivial amount due to him not having to task his sentries onto pesky little things. I also assisted in gathering the loot much more rapidly by zipping around and bringing it in to a central spot.

He was grateful for the assistance and it gave me some nice isk whilst having fun. By discounting what a low SP player can do to help in such situations you are doing them a dis-service and *that* is what would put players off more than anything else.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2015-07-30 17:44:23 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Incorrect, I took out the frigs and destroyers before moving on to cruisers and adding my feeble dps to the BS kills at the end. I did my job in the frigate as I would in a roam to protect the battleship and sped up his isk/hr speed by a non-trivial amount due to him not having to task his sentries onto pesky little things. I also assisted in gathering the loot much more rapidly by zipping around and bringing it in to a central spot.
Sorry, I thought you were doing a ghetto-Noctis impression.

Apparently it was an MTU.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-07-30 19:06:37 UTC
Aerasia wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Incorrect, I took out the frigs and destroyers before moving on to cruisers and adding my feeble dps to the BS kills at the end. I did my job in the frigate as I would in a roam to protect the battleship and sped up his isk/hr speed by a non-trivial amount due to him not having to task his sentries onto pesky little things. I also assisted in gathering the loot much more rapidly by zipping around and bringing it in to a central spot.
Sorry, I thought you were doing a ghetto-Noctis impression.

Apparently it was an MTU.


Really? Where do you get MTU's that take out frigates, destroyers and cruisers? I need me some of those...

The point is that new players can be useful in all sort of circumstances. It is a real problem that players such as yourself like to tell them that they are useless until 6 months. Maybe try being positive, try helping them and give them reasons to play rather than reasons to quit.
Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
#38 - 2015-07-30 19:31:28 UTC
So NPE has changed alot since I first started. For me the barrier of entry was isk, which I totally think was a better way to learn the game. I had most of the recommended skills to 4 well before I could afford the ship, and on my first bs, I could afford a fit after I got the ship.

These days, new players are handed millions of isk on the first day, given loads of free skill books, ships, and equipment. This then makes skills the barrier and often ends with new players losing ships they should fly and getting upset with basic game mechanics instead of themselves.

Even after the many years of playing and many friends introduced to the game, I still feel that the current system is great (especially with the skill queue). What other game allows you make progress while you are stuck in the office all day?

There are alot of jobs a person can do with little to no sp, and I actually dislike that. I actually feel like it's too easy to make progress in eve. Big smile
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2015-07-31 03:47:07 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
The point is that new players can be useful in all sort of circumstances.
I just get annoyed when people confuse "useful" and "present". I am on board with the idea that you and your corp-mate were having a good time, but at 3 days old you're going to be doing roughly the DPS of a single light drone. if you had gone AFK unannounced, it's entirely likely they would only have noticed because the banter stopped. In any other game this activity would have been referred to as power-leveling.

Which isn't to say you were completely motionless. A career starting off as ninja-salvaging or just corp mission cleanup isn't nothing. I just judge the point of "useful" at the point where somebody is going to seek you out for what you can contribute, not what you can contribute later or to have you do the gruntwork nobody else wants.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#40 - 2015-07-31 04:36:13 UTC
Aerasia wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
The point is that new players can be useful in all sort of circumstances.
I just get annoyed when people confuse "useful" and "present". I am on board with the idea that you and your corp-mate were having a good time, but at 3 days old you're going to be doing roughly the DPS of a single light drone. if you had gone AFK unannounced, it's entirely likely they would only have noticed because the banter stopped. In any other game this activity would have been referred to as power-leveling.

Which isn't to say you were completely motionless. A career starting off as ninja-salvaging or just corp mission cleanup isn't nothing. I just judge the point of "useful" at the point where somebody is going to seek you out for what you can contribute, not what you can contribute later or to have you do the gruntwork nobody else wants.




When a person could cloak in FW plexs we would leave a newer person in a bait ship with lots of tackle and sit next to them cloaked in recons. They are the ones that brought others to the site and the one that called tackle. This was very very useful because people like to think anyone under x age old is 100% scrub and would come in to get a easy kill.



it takes only a day to fit tackle and prop. Everyone is always looking for more hero tackle.


to train a T2 gun, a frig 5 AWU 3 and T2 light drones with most supporting skills 4, the really important ones 5 (cpu, power, cap) and the less useful ones 3 (target management, anchoring) takes 208 days at the remap that one starts the game with no remaps no implants. This would give access to all things T2 for tank (both buffer and active) also gives access to assault frigs lv 3 and interceptors lv 3.


6 months gets you a lot (the above is just shy of 7) and is well over kill for starting to be useful. 2 months get a T2 interceptor with decent skills to fly it.


this is why people say to specialist,