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OK no more complaining about CCP not opening the CQ door

Author
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#1 - 2015-07-06 21:53:32 UTC
"All encompassing" games are really f**king hard.


And yes this is also about Star Citizen.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#2 - 2015-07-06 23:30:03 UTC
Yeah they dumped the fps module from it. I'm sure most people that followed and were in tune with EnB and SWG development already had an idea how this was going to turn out. Yes just like the complications with WiS. Of course that was doomed to failure from the get-go seeing how even continued development of it effected WoD with just purely the bipedal play. It's just not something technically achievable in a good way, either bipedal or spaceships are going to suffer, can't have both in the same game client, not to full potential.

Almost makes one wonder if SC Online'ish was just a huge scam, I mean how could seasoned developers have not known with so many examples of failure and/or limited results? In the end though, it's just damages the genre. Belittle every other existing game for so long with the hype machine while they grab cash. Not delivering on the promises. Then leaving players who interested for years in the mmo space-sim genre just discouraged and bitter now looking for some other genre to pursue as they give up on space of which they are all still convinced by the past hype is all just worthless and boring.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#3 - 2015-07-06 23:38:44 UTC
Wow. Just clicking on a few of the links makes my head hurt. What a huge amount of labor and attention to just design all of the details of that kind of game. And then there's doing all of the IT problem solving to make it actually work.
stoicfaux
#4 - 2015-07-06 23:54:43 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
"All encompassing" games are really f**king hard.


And yes this is also about Star Citizen.

Oh, man. At this point, Derek Smart simply wants to be trolled.



edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlecruiser_3000AD
"Before publisher Take-Two Interactive released Battlecruiser 3000AD in September 1996, it had generated one of the longest and largest flame wars in the history of Usenet.[16] This flamewar lasted for several years, garnered over 70,000 posts, and yielded a series of sites that documented and parodied its history."

edit2: "Usenet" is what we had before the World Wide Web (e.g. graphical browsers.) Reddit is probably the closest thing to Usenet, but Reddit lacks the content and strength of character provided by usenet posters.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
#5 - 2015-07-07 11:58:48 UTC
Hmm, is this the place to point out a Kickstarter project that caters to gaming nostalgia as well and is way more down-to-earth and also way more realistic to actually get made?

Je suis Paris // Köln // Brüssel // Orlando // Nice // Würzburg, München, Ansbach // Saint-Étienne-du-Rouvray

Je suis Berlin // Fort Lauderdale // London // St. Petersburg // Stockholm

Je suis [?]

Commissar Kate
Kesukka
#6 - 2015-07-07 14:36:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Commissar Kate
You know I was thinking about this today.

So far Kerbal Space Program has been the only game to successfully have flying in space, planetary landings and walking about with your pilot. And if you like combat there are mods for that too. Oh and not to mention a pretty realistic newtonian physics flight model which other space games say they have but really don't.

Have the devs of KSP finally made the impossible possible where others have failed?
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2015-07-07 14:46:06 UTC
Commissar Kate
Kesukka
#8 - 2015-07-07 15:12:32 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Yeah? Does it have nude mods, or jiggly physics...?


I'd like me some zero-g jiggly physics. Lol
stoicfaux
#9 - 2015-07-07 15:14:47 UTC
Commissar Kate wrote:
You know I was thinking about this today.

So far Kerbal Space Program has been the only game to successfully have flying in space, planetary landings and walking about with your pilot. And if you like combat there are mods for that too. Oh and not to mention a pretty realistic newtonian physics flight model which other space games say they have but really don't.

Have the devs of KSP finally made the impossible possible where others have failed?

Lunar Lander by Atari in 1979 had newtonian physics.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2015-07-07 15:22:25 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#11 - 2015-07-07 15:53:33 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Commissar Kate wrote:
You know I was thinking about this today.

So far Kerbal Space Program has been the only game to successfully have flying in space, planetary landings and walking about with your pilot. And if you like combat there are mods for that too. Oh and not to mention a pretty realistic newtonian physics flight model which other space games say they have but really don't.

Have the devs of KSP finally made the impossible possible where others have failed?

Lunar Lander by Atari in 1979 had newtonian physics.





There was one "official" Lunar Lander game, but it had been around before that. I remember seeing something like it before 1979 under different names, if it even had one. Lunar Lander was like the "hello world" of game programs.


I had a friend get killed playing Lunar Lander. He was so engrossed in it he didn't see the T-rex in time.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#12 - 2015-07-07 15:56:50 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
"All encompassing" games are really f**king hard.


And yes this is also about Star Citizen.

Oh, man. At this point, Derek Smart simply wants to be trolled.



edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlecruiser_3000AD
"Before publisher Take-Two Interactive released Battlecruiser 3000AD in September 1996, it had generated one of the longest and largest flame wars in the history of Usenet.[16] This flamewar lasted for several years, garnered over 70,000 posts, and yielded a series of sites that documented and parodied its history."

edit2: "Usenet" is what we had before the World Wide Web (e.g. graphical browsers.) Reddit is probably the closest thing to Usenet, but Reddit lacks the content and strength of character provided by usenet posters.




Oh damn. The memories.

In order to use Usenet you were required to have a Linux Beard. The women too, but there weren't any.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2015-07-07 17:09:31 UTC
I recall buying a six pack of PLEX after seeing a SC update. It was nice to just have a working game to support. I haven't supported SC.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#14 - 2015-07-07 17:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Article is about building completely other game, where you have a depth of Frontier from Braben's Frontier, but with fps mode also. Eve used completely other direction in avatar path, it was about closed locations where someone could be spawned from the space.
No windows.
Dark, claustrophobic spaces.
Horror of rogue drones and a skeleton in workers uniform nailed to the wall by them.
Exploration, killing, loot, advancement.
Third person view with use of handguns and gadgets. That was the depth that was considered. When they did made first step with WIS, they completely lost ground under their feets. Because of people that said no to microtransactions, and that was probably the motivator for the direction to extend EVE. Avatar gameplay was like a walking thru marshes from that point on.
Why microtransactions? Because everyone is doing it, right?
And "not in my EVE" crowd has failed to show CCP that their path is wrong, obviously, as it is seen now with skins.

I have this vision: while number of concurrent users and subs drops, so is the hammer with a words "in place where money talks, silence is terrifying" on it, it strikes Hilmar in the forehead, ending his peacufull solitaire game and giving him headeache that can't be ignored.

Walkyrie is the next DUST514, New area, new concept, new experience, everything has to be learned from beginning. And even avatar exploraton module or multiplayer WIS content with bar seems had been more plausible in the past in light what has to be made with Walkyrie for it to be finished.
It is seen now, at this very moment, CCP not expanding on current systems, sometimes only reinventing UI, like with manufacturing, sometimes reinventing code and failing to achieve more functional way, like with scanning in new map, actually it is worse than in the old map.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#15 - 2015-07-07 17:56:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
This is my complete lack of surprise.

The Elite: Dangerous guys were smart and kept a tight scope on their project. Sure, they talked about eventualities, but they (eventually, ha) kicked a recognizable successor to Elite out the door.

Kerbal Space Program compromised heavily on graphical fidelity to offer modular construction and realistic physics, and they've been gradually accreting features.

"Walking in Stations" and World of Darkness suffered from the problem that nobody knew what their scope actually was. Star Citizen is going to have to go through a painful retrenchment once they realize that having everything in your scope is the same as not knowing what's in your scope.

Games are really good at projecting the illusion that they can render whole worlds--The Witcher 3 is particularly remarkable here--but they're still taking lots and lots of shortcuts. The devs behind SC should really have known that.

On a completely unrelated note, I really miss USENET sometimes.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#16 - 2015-07-07 18:07:07 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
"Walking in Stations" and World of Darkness suffered from the problem that nobody knew what their scope actually was

I don't believe it. Venturing in the new areas must be made with preparations, one must ask himself what he wants to achieve. Diving head first in murky waters is a dangerous thing.

CCP risked microtransactions bundled with WIS and they were scolded, so they went back to fixing EVE endlessly while making other games on the side.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#17 - 2015-07-07 18:12:57 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Yeah they dumped the fps module from it. I'm sure most people that followed and were in tune with EnB and SWG development already had an idea how this was going to turn out. Yes just like the complications with WiS. Of course that was doomed to failure from the get-go seeing how even continued development of it effected WoD with just purely the bipedal play. It's just not something technically achievable in a good way, either bipedal or spaceships are going to suffer, can't have both in the same game client, not to full potential.

Almost makes one wonder if SC Online'ish was just a huge scam, I mean how could seasoned developers have not known with so many examples of failure and/or limited results? In the end though, it's just damages the genre. Belittle every other existing game for so long with the hype machine while they grab cash. Not delivering on the promises. Then leaving players who interested for years in the mmo space-sim genre just discouraged and bitter now looking for some other genre to pursue as they give up on space of which they are all still convinced by the past hype is all just worthless and boring.



Wait.. SC cut the FPS moduel?!? source cause i need to laugh till i die.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#18 - 2015-07-07 18:22:16 UTC
Jumpgate has Newtonian physics. Joysticking your ship in 0 g and no resistence is tricky, but really fun.

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#19 - 2015-07-07 18:37:35 UTC
Talking about physics, human body have limits, physics in game must be toned down by pilot if we are talking about hardcore simulations, manual control, or can be toned down by systems "build" in the spaceship, for people to achieve comfortable passage. I would equal it to manual vs automatic transmission in a car.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#20 - 2015-07-07 18:46:15 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
"Walking in Stations" and World of Darkness suffered from the problem that nobody knew what their scope actually was

I don't believe it. Venturing in the new areas must be made with preparations, one must ask himself what he wants to achieve. Diving head first in murky waters is a dangerous thing.

CCP risked microtransactions bundled with WIS and they were scolded, so they went back to fixing EVE endlessly while making other games on the side.


I wouldn't either, but go ahead and look it up. CSM 5 spent its entire term trying to get any kind of answer from CCP about what the gameplay would entail, to the point of open revolt (the "little things" fix-it list drawn up by CSM 4, and largely implemented years later in Crucible, was another sore point). There used to be some amazing videos on YouTube of CCP talking about licensing WiS out for virtual runways to be used by high-end fashion designers, and that's pretty much the only concrete feature--it's why every avatar walks like a runway model and every CQ has a runway. Everything else was pie-in-the-sky stuff about how it would be better than reality. That's not to say that there could not be any gameplay. the earlier effort, Ambulation, had some good ideas. Walking in Stations was just supposed to be "awesome," I guess. That, and the development methodology was so terrible that I'm sure the art department gets hives every time someone mentions avatar gameplay.

World of Darkness made it to alpha three times (alpha in the technical sense, meaning feature complete but slow/buggy) only to be discarded and clean-sheeted three times. The third time, they just threw their hands up and gave up on the project. The only rational explanation for that is that they waited until a full workup just to determine if the game satisfied some nebulous and unquantifiable standard, instead of working the game up in advance and then developing it.

At a certain point, early on, you have to say, "this is the game we're making" and then commit to making it. The alternative is, well, World of Darkness. Or Star Citizen. Scope creep is death. No scope is stillbirth.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

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