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[Aegis] Missile balance package

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#501 - 2015-06-30 08:41:26 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
So CCP Rise, Aegis is out in just over a week. Any chance on joining the discussion or relenting on some of the stat nerfs?



You must be new here.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#502 - 2015-06-30 09:03:55 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
So CCP Rise, Aegis is out in just over a week. Any chance on joining the discussion or relenting on some of the stat nerfs?


Thank you for the laugh, Arthur.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#503 - 2015-06-30 09:55:45 UTC
Kasia en Tilavine wrote:
...I for one wouldn't mind flying no tank long range missile ships that hide behind the back line logi and hammer on larger targets or tackled targets to help break them. Their potential power in allowing Rapid fit Caracals to put dps pressure on "safe" logi or e-war ships just kiting the field might be something tremendously useful...Eve is waiting.


Just shortened for reading purposes. I hate to take the wind out of your sails but I did try the mods and I wouldn't give my hopes up.
SiSi pvp is very different from what is going on on TQ but you will see trends and new metas happening and developing quickly but I couldn't see much of an increase of missile activity.

I did try torpedos on a Navy Raven and you could see a small improvement but not that much that you will see torpedo-nano Ravens again (Band of goofswarm, you still hold a grudge for so many years??).

Simply put, the mods are not strong enough to ditch a ballistic control for an enhancer or a shield extender for a computer, so CCP Rise, did you talk to the fellas yesterday and give us some good news?

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#504 - 2015-06-30 10:01:10 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Simply put, the mods are not strong enough to ditch a ballistic control for an enhancer or a shield extender for a computer, so CCP Rise, did you talk to the fellas yesterday and give us some good news?


Or to swap out a PWNAGE for, really.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#505 - 2015-06-30 10:58:23 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
=( Don't change my Naga!


I support all Arthur's suggested changes, except for the Naga. I like it as a turret boat.


Why? just get a talos....

No Worries

Kryzin
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#506 - 2015-06-30 11:20:36 UTC
missile boats are in a bad shape as it is, these enhancements dont seem to buff them at all, apart from the heavy missile increase which is needed, i dont even use them as they are a waste of time, pve only. torps having 24 half to what 12? yea thats a great idea. sure they got alot of alpha but they are terrible for dps compared with gunships, range? whats that.. u gotta get in close to trap anyhow and then ur gonna get melted.

in all seriousness, missile boats are CPU poor, no ones gonna give up their ballistic slots for example for increased velocity as fire rate stays the same and dps is considerably then nerfed. at present equal for equal pew pew ships pwn missile boats EOS.

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#507 - 2015-06-30 11:23:46 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
So CCP Rise, Aegis is out in just over a week. Any chance on joining the discussion or relenting on some of the stat nerfs?
Thank you for the laugh, Arthur.

It was laugh, but his missiles changes proposal crush Rise "balance package". I just realized that by learning missiles skills I learn for kinetic damage mostly. Weapon skills and supporting skills for only one type of damage. Whole "missiles have selectable damage" is lie. Using EM missiles with tengu is like using lasers on Moa.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Kryzin
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#508 - 2015-06-30 11:29:18 UTC
Matt Faithbringer wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
A Comprehensive Missile Balance Package
(In addition to the proposed Aegis changes.)

Remove Kinetic Pigeon Holes
• Condor gets a +10% damage bonus to rockets and light missiles
• Buzzard gets a +5% damage bonus to rockets and light missiles
• Hookbill gets a +20% damage bonus to rockets and light missiles
• Hawk gets a 10% damage bonus to rockets and light missiles
• Corax gets a +5% damage bonus to rockets and light missiles
• Flycatcher gets a +10% damage bonus to rockets and light missiles
• Cerberus gets a +5% damage bonus to light, heavy and heavy assault missiles
• Onyx gets a +5% damage bonus to light, heavy and heavy assault missiles
• Rook gets a +7.5% damage bonus to light, heavy and heavy assault missiles
• Navy Osprey gets a +10% damage bonus to light, heavy and heavy assault missiles
• Drake gets a +5% rate of fire bonus to heavy and heavy assault missiles (it's already benefiting from the 5% heavy missile buff); this makes it comparable to the Raven in terms of relationship between Battlecruisers and Battleships.
• Nighthawk gets a +7.5% damage bonus to heavy and heavy assault missiles
• Tengu Accelerated Ejection subsystem gets a +5% missile damage bonus

Nerf Light Missiles; Buff Rockets; Buff Heavy Missiles; Buff Torpedoes; Buff Heavy Assault Missiles
• Swap the explosion velocity bonus between rockets (+20m/sec) and light missiles (-20m/sec)
• In addition to the 5% damage buff to heavy missiles, decrease the explosion radius on all heavy missiles by -5m and increase the explosion radius on all heavy missiles by +10m/sec.
• All torpedoes receive a -33% reduction in explosion radius (which gives them slightly better damage application over cruise missiles)
• All heavy assault missiles receive a +20% increase to explosion velocity and -5m reduction in explosion radius

Nerf Bomber Capacity
• Reduce cargo capacity by 50-100m3 (torpedoes just received a huge volume reduction and their damage application is increasing quite significantly)

New Faction Missile Modules
• Mordu's Legion Ballistic Control System: 15% missile ROF, 7.5% missile damage
• Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System (updated): 12.5% missile ROF, 10% missile damage
• Mordu's Legion Missile Guidance Enhancer: 5% explosion velocity, 5% explosion radius, 15% missile velocity, -15% missile flight time
• Caldari Navy Missile Guidance Computer: 7.5% explosion radius, 7.5% explosion velocity, 7.5% missile velocity, 7.5% missile flight time
• Republic Fleet Missile Guidance Computer: 7.5% explosion radius, 7.5% explosion velocity, 7.5% missile velocity, 7.5% missile flight time
(At least the addition of Faction modules will offset the recent MGC/MGE 'nerf'.)

Mordus Legion Ship Changes
• All missile damage bonuses for Mordu's Legion ships change to ROF bonuses. This results in a slight nerf to the Orthrus when utilizing RLMLs and a slight buff to the Barghest when utilizing torpedoes or cruise missiles.

Missile Naga
• The Naga gets reverted back to a missile Battlecruiser (yes, it was a missile behemoth to begin with): 5% torpedo and cruise missile damage and 10% missile velocity per level.


man that would be nice..


i like alot of these suggestions but not really the mordus ones, as you forget how squishy those ships are so nerfing them would not go down very well.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#509 - 2015-06-30 12:25:33 UTC
afkalt wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Simply put, the mods are not strong enough to ditch a ballistic control for an enhancer or a shield extender for a computer, so CCP Rise, did you talk to the fellas yesterday and give us some good news?


Or to swap out a PWNAGE for, really.

They can improve your performance when you are in group and can benefit from mitigating stacking penalties. So it kind of makes sense if you consider that apparently gang/fleet work which is what most of these changes are aimed for - maybe.

Not really sure otherwise.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#510 - 2015-06-30 12:43:54 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
afkalt wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Simply put, the mods are not strong enough to ditch a ballistic control for an enhancer or a shield extender for a computer, so CCP Rise, did you talk to the fellas yesterday and give us some good news?


Or to swap out a PWNAGE for, really.

They can improve your performance when you are in group and can benefit from mitigating stacking penalties. So it kind of makes sense if you consider that apparently gang/fleet work which is what most of these changes are aimed for - maybe.

Not really sure otherwise.


Indeed, however imo, by the time stacking matters for the PWNAGE it's almost irrelevant. Plus they boost the whole gang, and spares are good, easier to fit compared to new mods AND the mods stack too.

Also trade tank or dps (unless you're a phoon).


So a huginn supported phoon fleet....maybe. Everyone else? Enjoy new stacking penalties on your rigs and use a TP like nothing has changed.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#511 - 2015-06-30 16:04:07 UTC
Kasia en Tilavine wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
So CCP Rise, Aegis is out in just over a week. Any chance on joining the discussion or relenting on some of the stat nerfs?



The best they would give us is "going live with these modules, we'll see how they do!". And given the next month of people using them to see if they are worth it, we will see them declare OP success. Meanwhile, in terms of total damage dealt increases with missiles, "the logs will show nothing".

These modules replace Ballistic Controls, Tanking modules, Tackle, E-war, or other midslot utility. Each of those things either make missiles do more damage, or give missile ships more staying power on grid through tank/enemy disruption/self support, or hold enemy ships in place (tackle) longer, allowing missiles to be fired for longer, thus doing more damage.

Considering that July will be the month of experimenting with these live on TQ... If AUGUST sees more total PVP missile damage done, then OP success. Because the decrease in Tank/E-war/Tackle/rawDPS is being successfully compensated for with more application, and there are use cases for these modules to be helpful to groups. Whether these relegate missile ships to tankless back line snipers to make your blaster tackle more potent on the enemy, or decloak wonder-death, then they have ultimately found use by the comunity. Which i guess works out to a net gain for missile ships.

I for one wouldn't mind flying no tank long range missile ships that hide behind the back line logi and hammer on larger targets or tackled targets to help break them. Their potential power in allowing Rapid fit Caracals to put dps pressure on "safe" logi or e-war ships just kiting the field might be something tremendously useful.

Eve is waiting.

You might see more total activity with missiles due to people thinking this package is a buff to missiles rather than being a nerf. Op success

To Rise: you're an ass.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#512 - 2015-06-30 16:04:22 UTC
Aww man, looks like it's going to be 'screw yall'.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#513 - 2015-06-30 16:25:46 UTC
Bumping for 7.5% bonuses to each category for MGC II.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#514 - 2015-06-30 16:58:50 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Aww man, looks like it's going to be 'screw yall'.



Sounds about right, 18 pages of 'you're doing it right' followed by about half a dozen of 'the revision is bad'

Rarely have the community been so unified so naturally we'll not be listened to Smile
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#515 - 2015-06-30 17:10:30 UTC
afkalt wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Aww man, looks like it's going to be 'screw yall'.



Sounds about right, 18 pages of 'you're doing it right' followed by about half a dozen of 'the revision is bad'

Rarely have the community been so unified so naturally we'll not be listened to Smile

Star map
Skins
Overview changes
Missile mods
Almost fleet warp change
So many positive changes recently..

Eugh. Ccp get it together
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#516 - 2015-06-30 17:29:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
A Comprehensive Missile Balance Package
(In addition to the proposed Aegis changes.)

Remove Kinetic Pigeon Holes
...

Nerf Light Missiles; Buff Rockets; Buff Heavy Missiles; Buff Torpedoes; Buff Heavy Assault Missiles
• Swap the explosion velocity bonus between rockets (+20m/sec) and light missiles (-20m/sec)
• In addition to the 5% damage buff to heavy missiles, decrease the explosion radius on all heavy missiles by -5m and increase the explosion velocity on all heavy missiles by +10m/sec.
• All torpedoes receive a -33% reduction in explosion radius (which gives them slightly better damage application over cruise missiles)
• All heavy assault missiles receive a +20% increase to explosion velocity and -5m reduction in explosion radius

Nerf Bomber Capacity
• Reduce cargo capacity by 50-100m3 (torpedoes just received a huge volume reduction and their damage application is increasing quite significantly)

...

Mordus Legion Ship Changes
• All missile damage bonuses for Mordu's Legion ships change to ROF bonuses. This results in a slight nerf to the Orthrus when utilizing RLMLs and a slight buff to the Barghest when utilizing torpedoes or cruise missiles.

Missile Naga
• The Naga gets reverted back to a missile Battlecruiser (yes, it was a missile behemoth to begin with): 5% torpedo and cruise missile damage and 10% missile velocity per level.


  • Removal of the kinetic lock would make a lot of people happy. What if instead of a 5% Heavy Missile damage increase all medium missile ships got a 10% damage role bonus to their factions prefered damage type...you know, to keep the flavor while not pigeon holed.

  • Light missiles on most frigates and destroyers are fine as they are. RLML might need a look over, though I think the reload timer is already a sufficient balancing point. I like the rest of the buffs but think the Torpedoes one is too strong.

  • Completely disagree about Bomber cargo capacity. Last time I checked bombs are still big, 75m3, and cargo space is not only used for ammo, so I am strongly against this suggestion as not well thought out compared to the rest of your post.

  • The Mordus ships are strong but I don't think they warrant a complete change to their bonuses.

  • A missile Naga would be great, but changing a ships weapon system is not really fair to those that fly them and like them. If you wanted to make the Naga a dual bonused ship that could fit either weapon system that would be cool. And give the ship an element of surprise until you see it shoot.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#517 - 2015-06-30 21:07:45 UTC  |  Edited by: elitatwo
Terra Chrall wrote:
...
  • A missile Naga would be great, but changing a ships weapon system is not really fair...

  • Wait, since when was that ever considered??

    Eve Minions is recruiting.

    This is the law of ship progression!

    Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

    Terra Chrall
    Doomheim
    #518 - 2015-06-30 21:18:53 UTC
    elitatwo wrote:
    Terra Chrall wrote:
    ...
  • A missile Naga would be great, but changing a ships weapon system is not really fair...

  • Wait, since when was that ever considered??

    When it was on the test system a long, long time ago. But Arthur Aihaken brought it up in his wish list for missile balance changes. Hence me quoting him and commenting on his list.
    elitatwo
    Zansha Expansion
    #519 - 2015-06-30 21:58:21 UTC
    Terra Chrall wrote:
    elitatwo wrote:
    Terra Chrall wrote:
    ...
  • A missile Naga would be great, but changing a ships weapon system is not really fair...

  • Wait, since when was that ever considered??

    When it was on the test system a long, long time ago. But Arthur Aihaken brought it up in his wish list for missile balance changes. Hence me quoting him and commenting on his list.


    Wasn't directed at you, silly. (add my unhealthy amount of sarcasm and you'll see: EVE Community 0 : 1 CCP)

    Eve Minions is recruiting.

    This is the law of ship progression!

    Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

    GreyGryphon
    The Spartains
    #520 - 2015-06-30 22:07:08 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    GreyGryphon wrote:
    Do you mean +30/-30 m/s for rockets and light missiles? That torpedo buff would be reverted very quickly because it is too strong. I would honestly love to see a missile buff, but buffing medium and large missiles would cause more problems than they solve. When you buff missiles too much, they hit everything too well. The damage function needs to change.

    I do not think a missile Naga is a good idea when the only way to effectively apply missile damage is with a web or two. Also, increasing explosion velocity does not help as much as you would think.

    No, I meant basically switch the explosion velocity bonus between rockets and light missiles (I believe the difference is ±20m/s, but I could be mistaken). Rockets get slightly better damage application to encourage more use and it's a slight nerf to light missiles. The "buff" is actually just a slight rollback from the original heavy missile nerf and improved damage application for heavy assault missiles so that there's a reasonable short-range alternative to rapid light missile launchers. As for large missiles, torpedoes are already seeing a volume decrease - this is simply to address the poor damage application vs. cruise missiles. And yes, while this does benefit bombers - I did propose a capacity nerf to offset this somewhat.

    An increase to explosion velocity is always beneficial, and adjusting it has less adverse effects than tweaking raw damage, rate of fire or explosion radius. I believe the bonus I indicated for the Naga was missile velocity, so basically it delivers raw damage over range. The Naga overshadows the Rokh, and I'd really rather see the bonuses from the Naga switched to the Rokh so it becomes a dedicated sniper and the Naga a support missile gunboat.

    For the sake of discussion, let's assume we don't want the Naga to overshadow any of the other existing missile platforms. It would probably make more sense to give it some bonuses along these lines:

    • 10% bonus to torpedo and cruise missile velocity
    • 10% bonus to torpedo and cruise missile flight time

    This gives it the longest large missile base range which could lead to some interesting fleet/bombardment options.
    If I understood correctly, you want to switch the explosion velocity between rockets (ER-15 EV-225) and light missiles (ER-30 EV-255). Rockets already have great damage application, and I think rockets are outclassed by light missiles mostly because of the range difference. For example, it is difficult to get rocket damage below 30% for any frigate, and a Slasher with a OH 1 MN Afterburner II would be at ~40% (~64% with a OH 5MN Microwarpdrive II). You might as well view the rocket stats as ER-30 EV-450. As long as you don't shoot at anything below a 30 m signature radius, it is exactly the same as ER-15 EV-225. The torpedo change is just too strong.

    The problem with changing missile stats is that their effectiveness against intended targets and unintended targets is closely related. There is also little difference between explosion radius or explosion velocity outside of shooting much smaller targets. I don't have room to explain why here, but I have tried to explain this in my forum post on the missile damage equation.

    I am indifferent to the Naga change, but for any sniping missile ship the bonus should be for missile velocity and not flight time. That would help missile ships apply damage at long ranges.