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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

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Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1501 - 2015-06-17 16:17:36 UTC
joecuster wrote:
These casual tears are the best. Fozzie can rate how good a patch is for the health of the game by how many bads come out of the wood work. The more bads crying, the better it is.


Actually.. no. "Casuals" make up the majority of players, I'd think. As it is, there are a bunch of reasons that are pissing off people who just wanna log on and have fun; not go through hoops to relearn the game. Making the game more tedious and more difficult to get kills on top of that does not help to increase retention.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1502 - 2015-06-17 16:19:34 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
How does the fleet warp change impact/synergize/undermine the whole entosis capture thing? I keep feeling there's a subtle connection somehow. :/



It doesnt. Cant warp around the grid and entosis at the same time.
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1503 - 2015-06-17 16:35:17 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
If they're anything like my bombing FCs they'll just target a wreck and tell us to warp to that then target a ship. I have never been fleet warped to a hostle grid in a bomber.


You kidding.. you're missing out! Also, 'a' ship? You'd so missing out :)

You get a timely warp @30 and you can wipe out a whole fleet. Look up some youtube videos of Nulli Secunda first void bombing tengus and then electron bombing them to oblivion. All right into the hostile grid.
I don't think you understood any of what I just said.


Do tell. What did I miss?
Targeting a single ship is to line up the shot on the center of the fleet, we didn't get fleet warps to hostle grids so that lag wouldn't decloak everyone.


Are you using torps or bombs?

Also, "lag" doesn't decloak people - it doesn't even exist anymore due to tidi. A good bomber FC would keep a perch on the hostile grid - say 300 out, and warp you there whlie your bomb tubes cool down. That way you are loaded on grid already. Even better bomber FCs would ask you to keep everything of off your overview that isn't needed to warp in, release payload and warp out. But this isn't a thread about SBs so I'll stop there..
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1504 - 2015-06-17 16:44:56 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
How does the fleet warp change impact/synergize/undermine the whole entosis capture thing? I keep feeling there's a subtle connection somehow. :/



It doesnt. Cant warp around the grid and entosis at the same time.


No, but you do have to warp to the thing entosising your things.

Imagine an orthrus with T2 entosis links, boosted, with slaves, and having had a sip or two of Quafe Zero. Moving at ludicrous speed. First you have to have the prober get close to them. Then you have to warp fleet to prober. They you realize he's kinda far away. So far, in fact, that you will be in warp range again in a few moments. Just so you can start it all over again.

So stoicfaux, it's a pretty direct link - anything that can fit a T2 entosis link and be fast can potentially kite your sov out of existence. :)
stoicfaux
#1505 - 2015-06-17 17:28:10 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Disclaimer: Probably (most likely) don't know what I'm talking about.

Attackers put 250km range entosis on brick tank. Attackers (Entosis unit) are off plane in relation to standard warp lanes so the defenders have to get a scout on it first. Bubble is between entosis unit and enemy structure (i.e. the only place the enemy fleet can easily warp from.) Rest of attacking fleet at optimal range to blow up anything that gets bubbled. Standard decloaking items floating in space or smartbombs.

So unless the enemy has extreme sniper fits (200+ km range,) they probably won't have enough time to get close enough to the entosis unit to kill it before it cycles. However, if the defender is sniper fit, then the attacking fleet can warp to the defender and savage the under-tanked and under-gunned defenders with short range weapons.

Plus with lag/tidi/1hz server tick, a small defender probe scout (and pod) may not survive long enough to serve as a warp-to point.

Both friendly and enemy ships will want/need refitting abilities to swap between extreme sniping and normal combat fits. Heavy tank probe scouts may be "mandatory" to survive long enough to serve as a fleet warp-to point. Creating corp bookmarks in advance around structures will probably become mandatory for defense and offense (and possibly pre-positioned cloaked ships as well.)




Note to self: grid fu and drag bubbles.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
VirusMD
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1506 - 2015-06-17 17:40:59 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
The change restriction is too high and affects too many areas of life in Eve, from Kspace, to Null, to Wspace. I would propose a smaller iteration to address the concerns of how fleet warp mechanics now work.


  • Permit Squad Commanders in a fleet to fleet-warp their squad to bookmarks and probed sigs.


Essentially you move the capabilities of the overall fleet and wing commander down to the squad level. You remove the big flying balls of hurt down to decisions made by the squad commander, permitting them to decide on tactical warp ins, locations and fleet warps for their squad.

You restrict fleet warps down to a 10 man team, with a individual per 10 man team making individual decisions for that 10 man team, to support the fleet efforts.

Fleet and Wing commanders would lose this ability to warp entire armada's to bookmarks and scanned sigs, but permit smaller skirmish groups/squads to warp their small group to them.

You move the leadership role of getting tacticals and flying to the leader of the squad, reducing the blob down to at most, 10 pilots, vs the 100+ null runs into. You now create a new leadership dynamic, and permit new people to have a stepping stone to becoming a Fleet Commander. Squad Leaders gain power, and have a relevant role verses just being a booster for their fleetmates.

I'd start with baby steps first, commonly known as "A Iteration" (Thanks for that CCP Rise).

Remove the ability for fleet commanders and wing commanders from warping entire groups to bookmarks and scan probes, and reduce it down to the squad level.

Try that first. See how it actually works.



Genius this guy ^
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1507 - 2015-06-17 17:45:00 UTC
I still wonder why null sec and low sec gets the free fleet warps to stations and gates, can't they warp there themselfs?

No local in null sec would fix everything!
Arrendis
TK Corp
#1508 - 2015-06-17 18:07:55 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
How does the fleet warp change impact/synergize/undermine the whole entosis capture thing? I keep feeling there's a subtle connection somehow. :/


Well, it does mean that if you can build something that moves fast enough and targets far enough, they're gonna have a ***** of a time warping their tacklers onto you...
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1509 - 2015-06-17 18:09:41 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Disclaimer: Probably (most likely) don't know what I'm talking about.

Attackers put 250km range entosis on brick tank. Attackers (Entosis unit) are off plane in relation to standard warp lanes so the defenders have to get a scout on it first. Bubble is between entosis unit and enemy structure (i.e. the only place the enemy fleet can easily warp from.) Rest of attacking fleet at optimal range to blow up anything that gets bubbled. Standard decloaking items floating in space or smartbombs.

So unless the enemy has extreme sniper fits (200+ km range,) they probably won't have enough time to get close enough to the entosis unit to kill it before it cycles. However, if the defender is sniper fit, then the attacking fleet can warp to the defender and savage the under-tanked and under-gunned defenders with short range weapons.

Plus with lag/tidi/1hz server tick, a small defender probe scout (and pod) may not survive long enough to serve as a warp-to point.

Both friendly and enemy ships will want/need refitting abilities to swap between extreme sniping and normal combat fits. Heavy tank probe scouts may be "mandatory" to survive long enough to serve as a fleet warp-to point. Creating corp bookmarks in advance around structures will probably become mandatory for defense and offense (and possibly pre-positioned cloaked ships as well.)




Note to self: grid fu and drag bubbles.

Warp to node/structure at 100.
Prove in warp warp self to e-link dude.
Tackle
And if your dictors warp themselves they should land before cycle ends (in an optimal situation). You mis-guess his timer then doesn't really matter.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1510 - 2015-06-17 18:11:47 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
How does the fleet warp change impact/synergize/undermine the whole entosis capture thing? I keep feeling there's a subtle connection somehow. :/


Well, it does mean that if you can build something that moves fast enough and targets far enough, they're gonna have a ***** of a time warping their tacklers onto you...

Fortunately, anything filling that description has other viable counters.

I had a talos orbiting 200-250 at 6km/s and a barghest almost ended that escapade.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#1511 - 2015-06-17 18:23:32 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
How does the fleet warp change impact/synergize/undermine the whole entosis capture thing? I keep feeling there's a subtle connection somehow. :/


Well, it does mean that if you can build something that moves fast enough and targets far enough, they're gonna have a ***** of a time warping their tacklers onto you...

Fortunately, anything filling that description has other viable counters.

I had a talos orbiting 200-250 at 6km/s and a barghest almost ended that escapade.


Yeah... I've been playing w/the idea of a high-speed ECM ship... someone locks you to stop your entosising, jam 'em.
Theophilas
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#1512 - 2015-06-17 18:49:55 UTC
BadAssMcKill wrote:
Have you considered making the game more fun for a change
Civ Kado
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1513 - 2015-06-17 19:03:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Civ Kado
ATTENTION, I'VE GOT IT, STOP THE PRESSES! THIS IS NOT A DRILL!

guys, guys, what if, guys, what if we add a stacking penalty to fleets? a fleet of 20 outputs it's full DPS, every additional fleet member outputs 50% of its original DPS. This penalty is cumulative on to the other additional member of the fleet until eventually someone is just outputting close to 0 DPS.

to prevent having N+1 fleets on grid we make it so that if there are two fleets on the same grid from the same corp/alliance, they cancel each other's DPS out essentially nullifying them. We can tie this to the lore saying the new entosis link creates an electromagnetic barrier a la particle duality slit experiment where the electromagnetic wave gets divided and creates an interference pattern. it's brilliant.

this probably won't solve anything, but the tears it will create will be well worth it.
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1514 - 2015-06-17 19:09:04 UTC
Civ Kado wrote:
ATTENTION, I'VE GOT IT, STOP THE PRESSES! THIS IS NOT A DRILL!

guys, guys, what if, guys, what if we add a stacking penalty to fleets? a fleet of 20 outputs it's full DPS, every additional fleet member outputs 50% of its original DPS. This penalty is cumulative on to the other additional member of the fleet until eventually someone is just outputting close to 0 DPS.

this probably won't solve anything, but the tears it will create will be well worth it.


Or.. as FT Diomedes noted earlier, make fleets smaller. 100-man fleets will make alliances that can field 1000 people have 10 FCs. Will force them to think of roles for each FC, commensurate with experience. If you wanna be specially mean, make it 50 :)
Civ Kado
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1515 - 2015-06-17 19:12:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Civ Kado
Quote:
Or.. as FT Diomedes noted earlier, make fleets smaller. 100-man fleets will make alliances that can field 1000 people have 10 FCs. Will force them to think of roles for each FC, commensurate with experience. If you wanna be specially mean, make it 50 :).


I liek my idea better
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1516 - 2015-06-17 19:22:40 UTC
Civ Kado wrote:
Quote:
Or.. as FT Diomedes noted earlier, make fleets smaller. 100-man fleets will make alliances that can field 1000 people have 10 FCs. Will force them to think of roles for each FC, commensurate with experience. If you wanna be specially mean, make it 50 :).


I liek my idea better


Since this is a thread discussing a particularly terrible idea, I guess it's only appropriate it is in good company.
stoicfaux
#1517 - 2015-06-17 19:24:46 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Civ Kado wrote:
ATTENTION, I'VE GOT IT, STOP THE PRESSES! THIS IS NOT A DRILL!

guys, guys, what if, guys, what if we add a stacking penalty to fleets? a fleet of 20 outputs it's full DPS, every additional fleet member outputs 50% of its original DPS. This penalty is cumulative on to the other additional member of the fleet until eventually someone is just outputting close to 0 DPS.

this probably won't solve anything, but the tears it will create will be well worth it.

Don't forget the stacking penalized logistics component: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3a5kn0/csm10_massacring_sacred_cows_reforming_logistics/

Let's see, between it taking longer to warp a fleet around, fleet warping to non-public objects being more difficult, stacking penalized DPS, stacking penalized logistics, short entosis cycles, short vulnerability timers, and radically different sov mechanics in general, all requiring more distributed leadership and management of fleets, an organization that trains ahead of time to master these new fleet tactics and that has reorganized their fleets accordingly, could overrun organizations still used to "F1 Monkey" tactics and fleet compositions.

Small Mammals versus Dinosaurs, and CCP is the comet? (Or is the comet actually CCP + organizations playing the meta-game (e.g. CSM?))

/tinfoil...

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#1518 - 2015-06-17 20:04:46 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Don't forget the stacking penalized logistics component: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3a5kn0/csm10_massacring_sacred_cows_reforming_logistics/


I have to admit, as a dedicated logi pilot, the power of logistics in the current combat model is just beyond broken, and desperately needs fixing.

That said, the problem with any single set 'solution' is the same one that's kept jump fatigue, sov changes, and pretty much every other 'solution' from really having any effect on the big orgs:

There is no problem in the history of mankind for which a solution has been found where that solution was not found quicker, or a better solution found, by the group that could devote more brainpower to the search. There has never been a solution in the history of mankind which cannot be better implemented by the group with more manpower to devote to the task.

Ever.

Strength in numbers isn't always about finding 5 other guys and beating some lone troublemaker to death with aluminum bats in the empty Blockbuster parking lot behind Burger King on Rte 111 at 4:30 in the morning in the dead of winter in 1983 because he owes you te-... er.....

I may have said too much.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1519 - 2015-06-17 20:14:53 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Don't forget the stacking penalized logistics component: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3a5kn0/csm10_massacring_sacred_cows_reforming_logistics/


I have to admit, as a dedicated logi pilot, the power of logistics in the current combat model is just beyond broken, and desperately needs fixing.

That said, the problem with any single set 'solution' is the same one that's kept jump fatigue, sov changes, and pretty much every other 'solution' from really having any effect on the big orgs:

There is no problem in the history of mankind for which a solution has been found where that solution was not found quicker, or a better solution found, by the group that could devote more brainpower to the search. There has never been a solution in the history of mankind which cannot be better implemented by the group with more manpower to devote to the task.

Ever.

Strength in numbers isn't always about finding 5 other guys and beating some lone troublemaker to death with aluminum bats in the empty Blockbuster parking lot behind Burger King on Rte 111 at 4:30 in the morning in the dead of winter in 1983 because he owes you te-... er.....

I may have said too much.


The game is built around the fact you can always throw more ressources "ISk, ships, bigger/better ships, pilots,..." at a problem and you still have people not understanding every single nerf will be overpowered through with more number untill it become absolutely impossible even for the biggest organisation.

The very premise of the game is what is creating those situations. A game where you can stack the odds to the very limit to your advantage ended up with fights with odds so stacked people refused to undock. Go figure...
Arrendis
TK Corp
#1520 - 2015-06-17 20:24:24 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

The game is built around the fact you can always throw more ressources "ISk, ships, bigger/better ships, pilots,..." at a problem and you still have people not understanding every single nerf will be overpowered through with more number untill it become absolutely impossible even for the biggest organisation.

The very premise of the game is what is creating those situations. A game where you can stack the odds to the very limit to your advantage ended up with fights with odds so stacked people refused to undock. Go figure...


Any 'sandbox' that doesn't artificially limit the amount of manpower you can have playing will fall prey to it. Forget the game's premise - without the artificial limits on raid sizes, it'd be easier to kill a boss in any MMO by bringing 2000 dudes to the fight.

The game isn't built around the ability to throw more resources as a problem - it's built without the artificial constraints that prevent it in other games. A subtle difference, but an important one. Just like the fact that it's built without the artificial concept of 'item binds on acquire', resulted in jetcanning - the game wasn't 'built around the ability to jetcan', it was a result of players not being told 'you can't do this thing that would totally make sense for you to do.'

Which, now, is exactly what we're being told.