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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

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Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1401 - 2015-06-16 17:01:32 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:

As announced on the o7 show we are making some changes to fleet warp. Fleet Commanders, Wing Commanders & Squad Commanders will no longer be able to warp to anything a fleet member couldn’t warp to on their own. This includes –
  • Bookmarks


    • Does this include corporation bookmarks that the person in the same corp could warp to?


    Yes. You can only fleet warp to things that any member of your fleet could warp to, no matter what corp or alliances they are a part of.


    For clarification (and it may have been clarified already, I admit my eyes started swimming about page 10):

    If every member of the fleet has the bookmark - either they're all a member of the same corporation, or you copy the corp bookmark to your cargo hold, hand it to a member of another corp, and they put it in as a corp bookmark - and repeat this process for every corp in the fleet so that everyone in the fleet is capable of warping to that bookmark - are you still unable to warp the fleet to this?

    I understand the game balance issues you're looking at, and don't mind them at all in the context of battlefield management, but warping to a POS, anomaly, station insta-dock, etc - it seems a bit much to, in the name of increasing fleet member participation in actual activities, throw up more obstacles in the way of getting to the activities.

    To say nothing of 'we have instantaneous superluminal communication across the entire EVE Cluster, but my ship can't transmit coordinates to the other guys 5km away from me even if I were able to read the 3 pairs of numbers off verbally on comms' aspect.

    Just seems a little... silly.

    Change the idea from "can X player warp to this" to "is this a valid warp target"

    Celestials, anoms, etc. (they show up without any player involvement) are valid.

    If it requires someone making it a location (bookmarks, scanned sigs, etc.) are not valid.

    Only outlier/exception is fleet members. Those are valid.
    Syzygium
    Ventures Bar
    #1402 - 2015-06-16 17:07:17 UTC
    - if only you could fit tackling gear on a scout ship..
    - if only you could warp cloaked tacklers with bonus tacklerange to your target...
    - if only you could position your scout up to 100km behind your target, away from any decloaking stuff and warp your fleet at range so they land exactly at zero...


    if only...
    Executor Ardur
    Imperial Shipment
    Amarr Empire
    #1403 - 2015-06-16 17:08:42 UTC
    kyoukoku wrote:
    This nice article by Talvorian Dex, on Target Caller's blog, about the change got linked to in /r/eve an hour ago, so I thought it should be linked here for CCP to take notice of.


    Good article, to the heart of the problem. These changes are been rushed and virtually no thought has been put of the impact. Its lets do X and screw everyone else. We are going back to 2007 and without taking into concideration other changes in game that has happened since then.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #1404 - 2015-06-16 17:13:12 UTC
    Executor Ardur wrote:
    kyoukoku wrote:
    This nice article by Talvorian Dex, on Target Caller's blog, about the change got linked to in /r/eve an hour ago, so I thought it should be linked here for CCP to take notice of.


    Good article, to the heart of the problem. These changes are been rushed and virtually no thought has been put of the impact. Its lets do X and screw everyone else. We are going back to 2007 and without taking into concideration other changes in game that has happened since then.


    No, its a bad article as it makes wrong assumptions, does not understand what is being targeted and fails to see just how easily this can be adapted to.
    Awkward Pi Duolus
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #1405 - 2015-06-16 17:33:38 UTC
    Syzygium wrote:
    - if only you could fit tackling gear on a scout ship..
    - if only you could warp cloaked tacklers with bonus tacklerange to your target...
    - if only you could position your scout up to 100km behind your target, away from any decloaking stuff and warp your fleet at range so they land exactly at zero...


    if only...


    We do this now, and we will be able to do this after the proposed changes. What's your point?
    Awkward Pi Duolus
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #1406 - 2015-06-16 17:35:20 UTC
    Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:
    Except only being useful for being a scout gets old. we all came to this game to fight. Not sit and watch everything or hear about it on comms sitting on the far side of a wormhole. being the scout when the fight turns into a 45 minute brawl on a wormhole needs more dps/logi not more scouts.




    A great point.

    At best, it will be the extra alt the FC has been forced to make, unless s/he uses such an alt already.

    At worst, it will be an otherwise active pilot being hamstrung into becoming a mobile bookmark instead of actually enjoying the game the way s/he wanted to.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #1407 - 2015-06-16 17:38:26 UTC
    Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
    Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:
    Except only being useful for being a scout gets old. we all came to this game to fight. Not sit and watch everything or hear about it on comms sitting on the far side of a wormhole. being the scout when the fight turns into a 45 minute brawl on a wormhole needs more dps/logi not more scouts.




    A great point.

    At best, it will be the extra alt the FC has been forced to make, unless s/he uses such an alt already.

    At worst, it will be an otherwise active pilot being hamstrung into becoming a mobile bookmark instead of actually enjoying the game the way s/he wanted to.


    What is more enjoyable with anchoring on the FC, targeting what he calls and pressing f1?
    Sexy Cakes
    Have A Seat
    #1408 - 2015-06-16 17:38:26 UTC
    Good change. I like it.

    Not today spaghetti.
    Frostys Virpio
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #1409 - 2015-06-16 17:45:24 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
    Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:
    Except only being useful for being a scout gets old. we all came to this game to fight. Not sit and watch everything or hear about it on comms sitting on the far side of a wormhole. being the scout when the fight turns into a 45 minute brawl on a wormhole needs more dps/logi not more scouts.




    A great point.

    At best, it will be the extra alt the FC has been forced to make, unless s/he uses such an alt already.

    At worst, it will be an otherwise active pilot being hamstrung into becoming a mobile bookmark instead of actually enjoying the game the way s/he wanted to.


    What is more enjoyable with anchoring on the FC, targeting what he calls and pressing f1?


    But DUUUUUDE!!!!!! I get to be on the killmail while the scout might not.

    People don't want to be "just a scout" for the exact same damn reason the SRP manager somehow had to include a damn rule about no guns on logi.

    Muuuuuuuh killboard!!!!!!
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #1410 - 2015-06-16 17:56:35 UTC
    Frostys Virpio wrote:


    But DUUUUUDE!!!!!! I get to be on the killmail while the scout might not.

    People don't want to be "just a scout" for the exact same damn reason the SRP manager somehow had to include a damn rule about no guns on logi.

    Muuuuuuuh killboard!!!!!!


    The need for green is real.
    Syzygium
    Ventures Bar
    #1411 - 2015-06-16 17:56:44 UTC
    Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
    Syzygium wrote:
    - if only you could fit tackling gear on a scout ship..
    - if only you could warp cloaked tacklers with bonus tacklerange to your target...
    - if only you could position your scout up to 100km behind your target, away from any decloaking stuff and warp your fleet at range so they land exactly at zero...


    if only...


    We do this now, and we will be able to do this after the proposed changes. What's your point?

    The point is, that - as you observed correctly - it will still be possible to catch targets, even if they are inside of whatever gas-clouds, debrid-fields or similar areas. Some people claimed they wouldn't be able to do this after the fleetwarp change.

    Correct is, they can't do it the way they did before. They can still do it with some adaptations.
    Frostys Virpio
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #1412 - 2015-06-16 18:12:30 UTC
    baltec1 wrote:
    Frostys Virpio wrote:


    But DUUUUUDE!!!!!! I get to be on the killmail while the scout might not.

    People don't want to be "just a scout" for the exact same damn reason the SRP manager somehow had to include a damn rule about no guns on logi.

    Muuuuuuuh killboard!!!!!!


    The need for green is real.


    The whole "problem" is an attitude one. If you think you don't contribute as a scout, you are not doing it wrong but thinking wrong.
    Awkward Pi Duolus
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #1413 - 2015-06-16 18:15:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Awkward Pi Duolus
    baltec1 wrote:
    What is more enjoyable with anchoring on the FC, targeting what he calls and pressing f1?


    The euphoria from seeing your enemies annihilated one by one in a brilliant flash as the collective alpha of a fleet chews through them is quite something, actually.

    Sure, doing small gang stuff is a different kind of heart pumping fun, but that's for my late night T3D/dessie jaunts.

    Sometimes though, say on weekends with friends, I just like to sit back and see things burn without having to break too much of a sweat.
    Awkward Pi Duolus
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #1414 - 2015-06-16 18:19:54 UTC
    Syzygium wrote:
    The point is, that - as you observed correctly - it will still be possible to catch targets, even if they are inside of whatever gas-clouds, debrid-fields or similar areas. Some people claimed they wouldn't be able to do this after the fleetwarp change.

    Correct is, they can't do it the way they did before. They can still do it with some adaptations.


    Agreed. Some of the knee-jerk reactions in this thread opposing this change are not well thought out at all.
    Awkward Pi Duolus
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #1415 - 2015-06-16 18:23:53 UTC
    Frostys Virpio wrote:

    The whole "problem" is an attitude one. If you think you don't contribute as a scout, you are not doing it wrong but thinking wrong.


    Eh, people's expectation from this game and the amount of effort they want to put into it differ.

    Scouting is like being a logi or a fleet booster - you don't do it for the killmails, but because you get the satisfaction from knowing that you made a disproportionately positive contribution to the fleet.

    Unfortunately, nothing in this change will cause people who otherwise wouldn't have become scouts, now become scouts. It will, however, increase the burden on FCs to have a backup prober alt ready, if they don't already, when no one steps up.
    Dermeisen
    #1416 - 2015-06-16 18:36:32 UTC
    Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
    Shadowforge Dawkins wrote:
    Except only being useful for being a scout gets old. we all came to this game to fight. Not sit and watch everything or hear about it on comms sitting on the far side of a wormhole. being the scout when the fight turns into a 45 minute brawl on a wormhole needs more dps/logi not more scouts.



    A great point.

    At best, it will be the extra alt the FC has been forced to make, unless s/he uses such an alt already.

    At worst, it will be an otherwise active pilot being hamstrung into becoming a mobile bookmark instead of actually enjoying the game the way s/he wanted to.


    No it isn't a great point, it a foolish and myopic point - you may be surprised to find that not everyone came to the game with the same aspirations as you, whoever you are. Some people came to this game to give out hugs in signal cartel or to spend weeks gaining the trust of some dude to overturn an alliance or simple to explore the beauty that is Eve. Loads of guys will love the new scout power:

    imagine you become the éminence grise, you warp all these mugs to victory or defeat, or perhaps to certain death!

    Idea I've just worked out why Bat Country are so into supporting this. lol

    "Not the Boreworms!"
    Frostys Virpio
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #1417 - 2015-06-16 18:40:24 UTC
    Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
    Frostys Virpio wrote:

    The whole "problem" is an attitude one. If you think you don't contribute as a scout, you are not doing it wrong but thinking wrong.


    Eh, people's expectation from this game and the amount of effort they want to put into it differ.

    Scouting is like being a logi or a fleet booster - you don't do it for the killmails, but because you get the satisfaction from knowing that you made a disproportionately positive contribution to the fleet.

    Unfortunately, nothing in this change will cause people who otherwise wouldn't have become scouts, now become scouts. It will, however, increase the burden on FCs to have a backup prober alt ready, if they don't already, when no one steps up.


    The FC could always do what they do when no-one steps up to logi...
    Frostys Virpio
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #1418 - 2015-06-16 18:58:01 UTC
    Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:
    What is more enjoyable with anchoring on the FC, targeting what he calls and pressing f1?


    The euphoria from seeing your enemies annihilated one by one in a brilliant flash as the collective alpha of a fleet chews through them is quite something, actually.

    Sure, doing small gang stuff is a different kind of heart pumping fun, but that's for my late night T3D/dessie jaunts.

    Sometimes though, say on weekends with friends, I just like to sit back and see things burn without having to break too much of a sweat.


    It's ok, you will still be euphoric when the FC fleet warp you to his scout, alt or player, before resuming with the CTRL-CLICK F1 fun gameplay.
    Awkward Pi Duolus
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #1419 - 2015-06-16 19:00:26 UTC
    Frostys Virpio wrote:

    The FC could always do what they do when no-one steps up to logi...


    Absolutely. After all, a fleet only ever needs one logi, which could easily be alt-tabbed. Roll
    Awkward Pi Duolus
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #1420 - 2015-06-16 19:01:17 UTC
    Frostys Virpio wrote:

    It's ok, you will still be euphoric when the FC fleet warp you to his scout, alt or player, before resuming with the CTRL-CLICK F1 fun gameplay.


    Then what's the point of making the game any more tedious for the FC and less fun for the poor scout who's now relegated to being a mobile bookmark?