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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

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Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1021 - 2015-06-13 03:50:50 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Wolf Crownn wrote:
...

In conclusion, it's more of a bad idea than it is good.


Only for people why rely upon the FC to do everything for their fleet.


So the FC cycles my weapons for me? Is able to press my jump key for me?

Da **** you smoking bro?

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1022 - 2015-06-13 03:59:41 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Wolf Crownn wrote:
...

In conclusion, it's more of a bad idea than it is good.


Only for people why rely upon the FC to do everything for their fleet.


So the FC cycles my weapons for me? Is able to press my jump key for me?

Da **** you smoking bro?


Before CCP nerfed drone assist yea, they did fire your weapons for you.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#1023 - 2015-06-13 04:05:22 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Before CCP nerfed drone assist yea, they did fire your weapons for you.

Unless you were in Low where such niceties don't work. And where a lack of bombs hasn't set off a battleship meta.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#1024 - 2015-06-13 04:21:21 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Before CCP nerfed drone assist yea, they did fire your weapons for you.

Unless you were in Low where such niceties don't work. And where a lack of bombs hasn't set off a battleship meta.

What doesn't work about drone assist in lowsec?

Worked before. Still works now, just limited to max 50 drones assisted.
Adarnof
Kingsparrow Wormhole Division
Birds of Prey.
#1025 - 2015-06-13 04:23:39 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Q: CCP, this unduly effects people who live in wormholes!
A: Yes, and we're not happy about that. We have some systems and ideas we're working on to mitigate these effects. However we're not ready to announce those yet.


Also pronounced "lol screw those guys". How did Fozzie sucker you into taking the fall for this one? If bombers are broken then nerf bombers. It's really not hard. Changing fundamental game mechanics to resolve a niche imbalance is not the way to go.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1026 - 2015-06-13 04:25:39 UTC
Adarnof wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Q: CCP, this unduly effects people who live in wormholes!
A: Yes, and we're not happy about that. We have some systems and ideas we're working on to mitigate these effects. However we're not ready to announce those yet.


Also pronounced "lol screw those guys". How did Fozzie sucker you into taking the fall for this one? If bombers are broken then nerf bombers. It's really not hard. Changing fundamental game mechanics to resolve a niche imbalance is not the way to go.


This isnt aimed at just bombers but at all fleets.
Dictateur Imperator
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1027 - 2015-06-13 04:32:01 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:

As announced on the o7 show we are making some changes to fleet warp. Fleet Commanders, Wing Commanders & Squad Commanders will no longer be able to warp to anything a fleet member couldn’t warp to on their own. This includes –
  • Bookmarks


    • Does this include corporation bookmarks that the person in the same corp could warp to?


    Yes. You can only fleet warp to things that any member of your fleet could warp to, no matter what corp or alliances they are a part of.



    And for mining fleet ? A lot of miner don't play with 1 account so they use warp squad to go to they're POS to reprocess/refine. And not only on WH.

    So with your solution : 1) if it's a corporation fleet : all people have the corpo BM can they warp in ? Other case you will nerf mining who can't warp easely to the belt : change window for 15 account (and a lot of miner have this).
    2) It's an alliance fleet : Yo have a squad only with your corpomate/a wing . You make a warp fleet to go in your BM in belt to avoid to have to do 50 KM in propulsion mod : Can you do this if it's a corpo BM when you warp your squad of corporate.
    3) Have you see the problem of BM management if you do this.
    4)I propose to you to allow the old fleet warp to : Corporate POS (all your corpo must have it, and solve maybe some problem in WH to). Allow old fleet warp to warble point in celestial => like asteroid/structure in a anomaly : Only if all people are able to warp in (so if it's anom who don't require to prob).
    HiddenPorpoise
    Jarlhettur's Drop
    United Federation of Conifers
    #1028 - 2015-06-13 05:09:17 UTC
    Scipio Artelius wrote:
    HiddenPorpoise wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:
    Before CCP nerfed drone assist yea, they did fire your weapons for you.

    Unless you were in Low where such niceties don't work. And where a lack of bombs hasn't set off a battleship meta.

    What doesn't work about drone assist in lowsec?

    Worked before. Still works now, just limited to max 50 drones assisted.

    In low, unless it's a CONCORD legal target, drones have a habit of not engaging when assisted.
    Shalashaska Adam
    Snakes and Lasers
    #1029 - 2015-06-13 05:23:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalashaska Adam
    CCP Larrikin wrote:
    Fleet Commanders, Wing Commanders & Squad Commanders will no longer be able to warp to anything a fleet member couldn’t warp to on their own.


    CCP Larrikin wrote:
    Q: What if every member of the fleet has the bookmark?
    A: Nope, sorry, no go.


    Basically just a huge quality of life reduction then, rather than a thought out balance change.
    Scipio Artelius
    Weaponised Vegemite
    Flying Dangerous
    #1030 - 2015-06-13 05:31:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
    HiddenPorpoise wrote:
    Scipio Artelius wrote:
    HiddenPorpoise wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:
    Before CCP nerfed drone assist yea, they did fire your weapons for you.

    Unless you were in Low where such niceties don't work. And where a lack of bombs hasn't set off a battleship meta.

    What doesn't work about drone assist in lowsec?

    Worked before. Still works now, just limited to max 50 drones assisted.

    In low, unless it's a CONCORD legal target, drones have a habit of not engaging when assisted.

    That happens when the person that drones are assisted to doesn't cycle their guns.

    There is nothing special about lowsec that changes drone assist. All drones are a little bit rogue, not matter what the status of the space they are in.

    There isn't anything such as CONCORD legal target is lowsec. There is crimewatch that monitors acts of aggression and will trigger sentry guns if you perform a suspect or criminal act within 150km of them, but you can always shoot anyone you want depending on your own safety setting.
    Zappity
    New Eden Tank Testing Services
    #1031 - 2015-06-13 05:45:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
    Scipio Artelius wrote:
    HiddenPorpoise wrote:
    Scipio Artelius wrote:
    HiddenPorpoise wrote:
    Unless you were in Low where such niceties don't work. And where a lack of bombs hasn't set off a battleship meta.

    What doesn't work about drone assist in lowsec?

    Worked before. Still works now, just limited to max 50 drones assisted.

    In low, unless it's a CONCORD legal target, drones have a habit of not engaging when assisted.

    That happens when the person that drones are assisted to doesn't cycle their guns.

    There is nothing special about lowsec that changes drone assist. All drones are a little bit rogue, not matter what the status of the space they are in.

    There isn't anything such as CONCORD legal target is lowsec. There is crimewatch that monitors acts of aggression and will trigger sentry guns if you perform a suspect or criminal act within 150km of them, but you can always shoot anyone you want depending on your own safety setting.

    Not quite:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Drones will never take an action that causes their owner to get a crimewatch flag unless the owner explicitly instructs them to. Basically going flashy is cool, going flashy without any choice in the matter is not.

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5788543#post5788543

    Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
    FT Diomedes
    The Graduates
    #1032 - 2015-06-13 06:00:58 UTC
    All the people saying, "this will make players in large fleets have to interact more! That is a good thing! This will improve quality of life for everyone!"

    I call nonsense.

    Being one of 256 pilots in a fleet sucks. It sucks for the FC, who is trying to herd cats, keep abreast of the tactical/operational situation, and hear himself think over DBRB whooping for joy. It sucks for the line member, who cannot chat with his friends, who has to endure listening to DBRB talk about his dog, or just has to sit there waiting for something [anything] to happen.

    This change is not going to improve the large fleet experience in any way shape or form. Eve is a fun small gang game - where you have pilots who know each other, work well together, and can communicate easily, whether explicitly or implicitly.

    Quote:
    Typical coalition fleet pilot's thoughts:

    Did he say warp? I think he said warp... damn, that chick is hot! Mr. Snugglepants always drops the best links in fleet chat! Plus, my wife doesn't know how to check the history on the in-game browser!

    Where did he say to align? Was it planet 1 moon 7? Or planet 7, moon 1? Maybe I should ask in fleet chat? Or am I supposed to ask those "stupid" questions in corp chat?

    Man, TIDI blows! It's not as bad as the lag from back in 2007, but man, this sucks... To the moron on comms, "Yes, we know there is ******* TIDI you mouth-breathing, window-licking imbecile." Did I say that out load? Did I press push to talk?

    Did the FC just say, "Cancel Fleet Warp! If you don't you are dead and it will be your own fault!" Oh crap! There I go! I guess I'm dead...

    Wow! That was close. I went afk to get another beer, had to take the trash out to keep the wife off my back, made a sandwich, put the dog out in the yard, and came back to find we are still sitting in the POS waiting to find out if we are going to get blueballed...

    Oh wow! Here we go, we are warping in! Loading grid... Loading grid. Primary is RonanIsPrimary? Humph... I bet he thinks that's a clever name. Well, he's dead now. Another T1 cruiser killmail. Yay? Too bad our dictor pilots all died and the rest of the enemy got away...

    Oh look, we are going to sit on this gate in case the enemy comes back. Apparently SOMEONE else, wink wink nudge nudge ZOMG OPSEC is going to kill the tower. Why didn't I get the ping for Supers? Why is it always the FC's inner circle who get to use their shiny toys?

    FC: "Okay, ladies, You know how we came out to Catch through that WH?"
    Fleet: "Yeah..."
    FC: "Well, someone collapsed it while we were on that four long POS-reinforcement op. I have been up all night and have to be at work in twenty minutes. So, either self-destruct, or dock up in the NPC station, or hang out here for the next 1 day, 18 hours, until the POS comes out of reinforcement, or you can try to roam back the 47 jumps... if there is someone willing to lead the fleet. Any volunteers?
    Noobie FC: "Yes, me! I'll do it!"
    FC: "Okay guys, Mr. Gullible will lead you back home. Interceptors please don't just all warp back and leave the rest of the fleet hanging, they'll need scouts..."
    Interceptor pilots: "Whoosh! Whoosh! Whoosh! So long suckers! We only have to do this for 30 minutes because we warp so fast! Sucks to be you guys!"


    And you people think taking away fleet warps is going to make being one of 256 pilots more fun? Get real.

    CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

    Resa Moon
    New Eden Miners Association
    Interplay
    #1033 - 2015-06-13 06:36:46 UTC
    Proposed changes to fleet warp are idiotic. Eve has enough tedium as is, don't present more. Ridiculous if you feel you have to FORCE players into engaging with the game.

    New Eden Mining Blog
    Tipa Riot
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #1034 - 2015-06-13 06:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
    Scipio Artelius wrote:
    HiddenPorpoise wrote:
    Scipio Artelius wrote:
    HiddenPorpoise wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:
    Before CCP nerfed drone assist yea, they did fire your weapons for you.

    Unless you were in Low where such niceties don't work. And where a lack of bombs hasn't set off a battleship meta.

    What doesn't work about drone assist in lowsec?

    Worked before. Still works now, just limited to max 50 drones assisted.

    In low, unless it's a CONCORD legal target, drones have a habit of not engaging when assisted.

    That happens when the person that drones are assisted to doesn't cycle their guns.

    There is nothing special about lowsec that changes drone assist. All drones are a little bit rogue, not matter what the status of the space they are in.

    There isn't anything such as CONCORD legal target is lowsec. There is crimewatch that monitors acts of aggression and will trigger sentry guns if you perform a suspect or criminal act within 150km of them, but you can always shoot anyone you want depending on your own safety setting.

    Drone assist doesn't work for me either in low, except for rats. I suppose it has to do with the not so recent change in drone aggression. Now drones will not start a new limited engagement without your explicit command. Hence assisted drones will not aggress neutrals or suspects in low unless you already have a limited engagement with them.

    And yes, there are special rules in lowsec which matter here. Blink

    EDIT: Zappity already has the quote and confirmation.

    I'm my own NPC alt.
    Louanne Barros
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #1035 - 2015-06-13 07:00:57 UTC
    FT Diomedes wrote:
    All the people saying, "this will make players in large fleets have to interact more! That is a good thing! This will improve quality of life for everyone!"

    I call nonsense.

    Being one of 256 pilots in a fleet sucks. It sucks for the FC, who is trying to herd cats, keep abreast of the tactical/operational situation, and hear himself think over DBRB whooping for joy. It sucks for the line member, who cannot chat with his friends, who has to endure listening to DBRB talk about his dog, or just has to sit there waiting for something [anything] to happen.


    Quoted for truth.

    A) This is an accurate representation of the DBRB experience.

    B) The other coordination required to operate a big fleet is immense, and running a small cruiser gang does not offer a valid point of comparison. More things to play "game of telephone" with is not going to IF YOU WARPED YOU'RE DEAD any additional engagement in EVE.
    Zappity
    New Eden Tank Testing Services
    #1036 - 2015-06-13 07:03:25 UTC
    Resa Moon wrote:
    Proposed changes to fleet warp are idiotic. Eve has enough tedium as is, don't present more. Ridiculous if you feel you have to FORCE players into engaging with the game.

    This is an interesting point. Changes which make people want to be engaged would surely be better. I wonder if CCP understands the appeal of blob warfare (I certainly don't but acknowledge that there must be something I'm missing).

    Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
    FT Diomedes
    The Graduates
    #1037 - 2015-06-13 07:09:57 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
    Zappity wrote:
    Resa Moon wrote:
    Proposed changes to fleet warp are idiotic. Eve has enough tedium as is, don't present more. Ridiculous if you feel you have to FORCE players into engaging with the game.

    This is an interesting point. Changes which make people want to be engaged would surely be better. I wonder if CCP understands the appeal of blob warfare (I certainly don't but acknowledge that there must be something I'm missing).


    The appeal is in winning. The appeal is in not having to move out of your space. The appeal is in having a modicum of stability in an unstable and harsh universe. The cost is that the actual PVP element of the game becomes less engaging.

    It's kind of like that quote from Vietnam, "We had to destroy the village in order to save it."

    That's why I have always tried to balance it all out. I'll participate in large coalition fleets, click my PAP links, then get back to chilling on comms on gate camps, casual roams, exploration, or hunting ratters.

    The way I see it, large blob fleets are a necessary evil if you want to live in your own space and don't want to live in a WH. It's just part of the grind of Eve. To make it slightly less awful, I generally try to only fly capital ships or Interdictors. With the former you have a real asset at stake, with the latter, you get to be the hero or the goat.

    For me, I'll stay in my current corporation until all my friends finally quit Eve, then I'll either go find another hobby or give WH space a try.

    CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

    afkalt
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #1038 - 2015-06-13 07:37:25 UTC
    Dermeisen wrote:
    Servanda wrote:
    afkalt wrote:
    Leoric Firesword wrote:
    Sparrow Creature wrote:
    this change will kill wormhole just saying..


    not really, after you align to your next site, instead of your FC warping you he gives the command "warp now" or "warp to b" and boom, you're doing the same thing you did before.


    you're welcome that I fixed wormholing for you :)



    And al the different ship classess arrive in dibs and drabs and are obliterated because there was no logi or support for the logi.

    Brilliant.

    Or did you forget they all warp at different speeds now? You did, didn't you.....



    1. Cloaked alt warps first
    2. FC warps Fleet to that alt

    Fixed


    You are able to warp in a staggered fashion with that in mind and you hadn't forgotten about the session timer when you land on grid. You had, hadn't you......



    Yes, leaving ships on grid at the start of the warp is so different from them left alone at the desto, right?
    afkalt
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #1039 - 2015-06-13 07:44:41 UTC
    HiddenPorpoise wrote:
    Marech Bhayanaka wrote:
    afkalt wrote:

    Moving a fleet through a wormhole chain in a cohesive manner WITHOUT needing to put a scout on EVERY bookmark first.

    You need ONE scout with bookmarks. The fleet warps to the scout and before they even land he is through the wormhole and off to the next BM. What am I missing here? (Seriously asking.)

    Marech.
    Wormholes make people rightly paranoid and they'd rather punt people down a chain than be in the open at what is more or less a permanently blind gate. That and large systems where the scout may take nearly 30 seconds to cross in the first place are why wormholers are so upset.



    ^^ That's why.

    Your fleet could be being approached by a cloaky dictor at any time, and you have NO IDEA.

    Sitting on grid waiting on a scout landing....not cool.
    Diggertothend
    The Graduates
    The Initiative.
    #1040 - 2015-06-13 07:49:22 UTC
    CCP there are plenty of problems but fleet warping isnt one of them. Please don't destroy what has been working without any problems for no good reason