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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

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Bertral
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#601 - 2015-06-12 10:37:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertral
Phoenix Jones wrote:
The change restriction is too high and affects too many areas of life in Eve, from Kspace, to Null, to Wspace. I would propose a smaller iteration to address the concerns of how fleet warp mechanics now work.


  • Permit Squad Commanders in a fleet to fleet-warp their squad to bookmarks and probed sigs.


Essentially you move the capabilities of the overall fleet and wing commander down to the squad level. You remove the big flying balls of hurt down to decisions made by the squad commander, permitting them to decide on tactical warp ins, locations and fleet warps for their squad.

You restrict fleet warps down to a 10 man team, with a individual per 10 man team making individual decisions for that 10 man team, to support the fleet efforts.

Fleet and Wing commanders would lose this ability to warp entire armada's to bookmarks and scanned sigs, but permit smaller skirmish groups/squads to warp their small group to them.

You move the leadership role of getting tacticals and flying to the leader of the squad, reducing the blob down to at most, 10 pilots, vs the 100+ null runs into. You now create a new leadership dynamic, and permit new people to have a stepping stone to becoming a Fleet Commander. Squad Leaders gain power, and have a relevant role verses just being a booster for their fleetmates.

I'd start with baby steps first, commonly known as "A Iteration" (Thanks for that CCP Rise).

Remove the ability for fleet commanders and wing commanders from warping entire groups to bookmarks and scan probes, and reduce it down to the squad level.

Try that first. See how it actually works.


Now this sounds extremely fun. Instead of suiciding the probing ship to provide the warp-in, have a dedicated squad do it (with some heavy tackle and ****).
Nandi Milian
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#602 - 2015-06-12 10:38:18 UTC
This change would only be bearable, if you also lower the fitting requirements for expanded probe launchers. Because a covert ops is to thin to tackle anything and is not able to tackle a super at all.
159Pinky
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#603 - 2015-06-12 10:39:02 UTC
+1

Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two
#604 - 2015-06-12 10:41:21 UTC
Dwaigon Aumer wrote:
Sasha Sen wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Seems that this is actually reducing the specialised role of a prober rather than increasing it. I currently use a dedicated prober in a covops (you know, a probing ship) and they warp my cruiser onto targets. If the prober has to tackle then the fit will have to be enormously gimped. And why? That's the whole point of them - to probe, not to tackle.


I am really confused, trying really hard to see why this is bad for you.

You have a prober - check
You got lock on a sig - check
You warp your cov ops to the sig - check
You warp with your combat ship to your scanner - check

What am I missing?

When i probe i now fleet warp my inty on them, even if they saw the probes in scan and they aren't aligned i catch them. With this change by the time my alt is in the sig and i have to warp my inty to my alt the target is long gone.


I see you send your inty in for exploration frigates, you sure your scanner cant tackle those? Did you try? And I don't see any combat site ships caught this way, if you did it's not the norm and you know it.
Zarek RedHill
State War Academy
Caldari State
#605 - 2015-06-12 10:45:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarek RedHill
I'm by no means an expert in Eve nor game design -- but I like to think I've learned a few things along the way (yes I'm old).

- change is hard, and not always easy. That does not make it undesirable
- players (and devs) greatly overestimate their ability to predict the impact of a change like this. The tendency is to recoil.
- shaking things up every so often not only keeps the game fresh, it also is one of the few ways new players can be brought to the same level as older players.

All this said, here are my recommendations (these apply to core game play mechanics in general)
- it would be cool if changes like this could be player tested to a degree that is not practical on the test servers. Maybe a small subset of regions (some high, some low, some null, some k-space) could be phased into the new fleet warp regime for a more extensive play test.
- Even if you do go with a galaxy-wide switch to the new fleet warp regime, keep the old system around in the code base behind a feature flag (for a short while) so that if this change goes bad, a simple toggle & server reset can roll it back.

About this change specifically --
- consider giving individual players the ability to warp 150/200/250 km in any direction without having to have a bookmark at the landing spot. I realize this has significant implications since "getting a warp in" on a fleet is a big deal -- it'd be cool to see fleet movements be more complex than just anchoring up on the FC.

Thanks for reading. :)
-Z
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#606 - 2015-06-12 10:48:14 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Sasha Sen wrote:
Fleet warps work to anoms.


You cant tackle it with a prober and be a warp in for rest of the fleet?

Yeah, this is the alternative. Care to suggest any fits for probing bonused ships that would survive even 20 seconds of drone DPS? You need an expanded launcher.


Any cloaky scanner. Just stay near him and get warp in for the fleet. It adds 30 sec to the practice that is actual now.

Which is not using the scanner as a tackler.

Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Or use any reacon or T3 as heavy tacklers.

Which was precisely the point I made. The specific role of the prober is being reduced. You can't actually use a probing ship for the role any more. I don't like it.

I understand the reasoning behind the change for large fleets. I do not understand it for small fleets. Converting Fleet Warp to Squad Warp would be good.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Dwaigon Aumer
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#607 - 2015-06-12 10:48:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Dwaigon Aumer
Sasha Sen wrote:
Dwaigon Aumer wrote:
Sasha Sen wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Seems that this is actually reducing the specialised role of a prober rather than increasing it. I currently use a dedicated prober in a covops (you know, a probing ship) and they warp my cruiser onto targets. If the prober has to tackle then the fit will have to be enormously gimped. And why? That's the whole point of them - to probe, not to tackle.


I am really confused, trying really hard to see why this is bad for you.

You have a prober - check
You got lock on a sig - check
You warp your cov ops to the sig - check
You warp with your combat ship to your scanner - check

What am I missing?

When i probe i now fleet warp my inty on them, even if they saw the probes in scan and they aren't aligned i catch them. With this change by the time my alt is in the sig and i have to warp my inty to my alt the target is long gone.


I see you send your inty in for exploration frigates, you sure your scanner cant tackle those? Did you try? And I don't see any combat site ships caught this way, if you did it's not the norm and you know it.

Oh my alt can tackle them for sure, but i don't want it cause it will expose my alt and burn him as a scout. So everytime i use him, he becomes more and more exposed, eventually he is no longer usable so i need another alt.

What if i want to tackle an astero in my cloaky alt, those are beasts and will murder my alt before i can jump anything else on them. -edit: my alt uses an frig for scanning.

Minmatar FTW!!
Brendan Anneto
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#608 - 2015-06-12 10:49:48 UTC
LOL. CCP Screws supers and capitals then screws fleet abilities. What's next? Screwing the ability to warp on the grid?

I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes, When your terror comes like a storm, And your destruction comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you.   Proverbs 1:26-27
GallowsCalibrator
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#609 - 2015-06-12 10:52:57 UTC
This seems.... not very well thought out.

The problems with stealth bombers is really the actual bomb itself - that could do with a balance pass more than anything to stop it being the be-all and end all of battleship slaughtering. (Less damage, less HP per bomb, bomb launcher increasing recloak delay, wider AoE, make non-damage bombs a lot more compelling to use?)

As it stands, this feels like it's going to make high-mobility, high-projection ships even more powerful in the meta, which although is probably great for Tengu owners and those using rail-tengu doctrines (although I for one await the age of the nanorokh) it's going to further invalidate a lot of ship/doctrine choices. Not a good thing.

It's also going to lead to a lot more burnout as it's going to make fights less likely to happen.

As an idle suggestion, this change might be a bit more palatable if there were some ships with role bonuses that allowed you to drag people on a to-be-forbidden fleet warp (hint hint recons), squad-level group warpins were still possible, or as an alternative to this, some kind of module that either made warp-ins more erratic or made probe-locks more difficult in a radius, to be able to effectively scatter bombing runs. (Which sound like they could be interesting alternative HICtor scripts or something.)

Seriously, making people work harder for fun/engagements isn't great and is a pretty big reversal of a lot of the current trend to make trudgery less of an issue. (Like how fuel and logistics has had a lot of work to make it easier rather than soul-crushing pain.)
X4me1eoH
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#610 - 2015-06-12 11:02:43 UTC
what about WH? There are no batles on celestial objects, all activity on books. And all warp with differense warp speed.
What about missions? Like L5 mmissions without gate. When logist will be arrive, main ship can die.

Гайды по еве: https://www.youtube.com/user/X4me1eoH/feed?&ab_channel=X4me1eoH
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#611 - 2015-06-12 11:06:01 UTC
Hudson EVE wrote:
Dislike this change.



Serious fleets will ban noobs; Losing chance to gain skirmish exp.


Good, more victories for us. Bat Country are recruiting.
kai il
Doomheim
#612 - 2015-06-12 11:07:26 UTC  |  Edited by: kai il
Nail in the coffin to wormhole space and combat scanning.

This would not be a terrible change if corp bookmarks showed up instantly and not the cluster **** it is now where you can have to wait up to 10 minutes.

gg CCP 10/10 update gotta pad that patch note list and make it look like you are doing something for each expansion amirite?
Jeff Kione
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#613 - 2015-06-12 11:14:00 UTC
Why is it not possible to fleet warp your fleet that is comprised of only corp-mates to a corp bookmark? By the logic presented in the original post this should be possible, since every individual fleet member could warp there themselves.

This change seems to hurt w-space more than anyone living in k-space, because moving around in k-space does not require scanning down signatures to find the publicly-accessible gate.

It seems to me that you're applying a blanket bandaid to try to fix the design problem of stealth bombers without actually fixing the stealth bomber problem. This is a poor design decision. Here are some better ideas that impact stealth bombers only:

- Having a bomb launcher equipped forces you to be marked exempt from fleet warps (so this change, but impacting only the targeted ship).

- Having a bomb launcher equipped reduces your warp speed by xx% (getting into position takes longer, if the fleet is moving then your warp-in could be inefficient by the time you get there).

- Having a bomb launcher equipped lowers your speed and agility (taking longer to align for a bombing run, meaning a moving enemy fleet might get out of the line of the bomb before the bombers have a chance to launch their bombs).
Blavish
Therapy.
Brave Collective
#614 - 2015-06-12 11:14:15 UTC
As someone that uses mostly battleships, i'm loving this update.
Cpt Patrick Archer
I HAVE THE POWER OF GOD AND ANIME ON MY SIDE
Blue Eyes and Exodia Toon Duelist Kingdom Duelers
#615 - 2015-06-12 11:18:22 UTC
Behold the rise of the TROLL-10km/sec-Cynabal with Entosis link. The worlds only hope of catching that has just been put in the dumpster.
Bevici Roden
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#616 - 2015-06-12 11:19:33 UTC
I dislike this change for the following reasons.

1. Not allowing the prober to fleet warp all of the members of a fleet to a probe window result will vastly increase the time it takes to move a fleet around wormhole space.

2. Having individual pilots warp to a fleet member will take a way cohesion from fleets of different ships due to different warp speeds.

3. Currently probing signatures down includes wormholes, combat sites, data sites, relic sites, gas sites which are all different from combat probed ships, deploy-able structures, and player owned star bases.

4. Fleet warps are used offensively as well as defensively, increasing the difficultly by literally tying up a player to act as the warp in point is a horrible way to go about fixing 'individual pilot responsibility'

5. You are literally forcing the scanner into a role that was previously an option instead of a requirement. I mean that an FC could have a dedicated scanner, and this scanner could fleet warp a pilot or pilots to different areas to tackle, or to get eyes, or to whatever. Now this role is 100% on the prober in any time sensitive situation.

_____________________________________________________________________________

On a different note. I live in wormholes. When educating a new player about staying safe in wormhole space and moving around in wormhole space, as well as introducing him to exploration relic/data I need fleet warp.

I scan down and warp him around as if he was attached to my ship. We do data/relic site after data/relic site and chain through wormholes together. I can talk to him about wormhole best practices while he is 'hands off' the pilot controls just seeing the shiny things. I can watch D scan, Intel chat channels, whatever just keeping him safe as he does things and listens to me as he is preoccupied with knowledge overload.

I can let him show info and read the information on the wormhole we just jumped through, the thing he just got from a data scatter container, the ship that just showed up on D scan, all while being able to warp him to the correct locations or even off grid so he remains safe if we get jumped mid site or in transit.

After that I introduce him to corp bookmarks. I let him practice scanning and warping to things. I let him practice warping me around. I let him practice navigating through chains of wormholes with specific destinations in mind. I let him practice all the things I was previously doing for him.

If you take away fleet warp from me this process will be hindered as I can not start from "this is how I move around and do wormholes, just watch, now you try" It will instead be "hey here is this thing called warp to fleet member, do this 100 times while I try to explain what is happening"
Wolf Crownn
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#617 - 2015-06-12 11:19:55 UTC
...

In conclusion, it's more of a bad idea than it is good.

—it's not about the value you gain, but the value they lose.
Lyam Gaius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#618 - 2015-06-12 11:21:11 UTC
The winter is Comming .....
Invisible Air
Super Villains
Pandemic Horde
#619 - 2015-06-12 11:26:06 UTC
Cry stop demolishing things that work fine
Was this discussed with the CSM? Cause it doesn't appear you've listened to the player base and act accordingly
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#620 - 2015-06-12 11:26:41 UTC
Wolf Crownn wrote:
...

In conclusion, it's more of a bad idea than it is good.


Only for people why rely upon the FC to do everything for their fleet.