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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

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Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#41 - 2015-06-11 22:29:47 UTC
BEST CHANGE EVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

HAHAHA THANKS CCP GATEJUMPS AND CCP TALL SMILEY PERSION

I need to get my tear jars out of storage...
Teebeutel
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#42 - 2015-06-11 22:31:02 UTC
Steven Hackett wrote:
Teebeutel wrote:
Steven Hackett wrote:
Teebeutel wrote:
I dont see the problem that a lot of people seem to see for wormhole fleets, using corp bookmarks and having fleet members warp to those individually should do just fine.

Only if they are propagated for all client, which due to ****** CCP code, can take up towards 10 minuts.

Wasn't there something about creating a private bookmark refreshing corp bookmarks locally or something silly like that?

Just tested it, doesn't look like it.

In that case I shall take my statement back, this is gonna make wormhole fleets kindof annoying.
Ele Rebellion
Vertex Armada
Man I Love Flying Spaceships
#43 - 2015-06-11 22:32:08 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
ArmEagle Kusoni wrote:
So, to run anoms (in w-space) we can't easily warp there all together anymore. Everyone will need the probe scanner window open/have bookmarks or have to wait for one player to have landed. Alliance bookmarks would only make that slightly less of an issue.

That's just one example of how people will become unnecessarily more vulnarable, or things taking more time.


Anoms yes, Sigs no.


I believe you are mistaken.
Signatures Yes, Anoms no. (Anoms are the green sites you can warp to without scanning down. We should still be able to fleet warp to those)
Aebe Amraen
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#44 - 2015-06-11 22:32:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Aebe Amraen
I have two concerns with this change:

1. On a broad level, the stated intent of this change in the o7 show was to make specialized fleet roles like probing and tackling more important:

Quote:
The big goal is that we want fleet combat to be more involved. we really want players to be able to shine and show off their skills, and we think this change gives a bigger opportunity for specialized fleet members who specialize in tackling, probing, cloaky movement around the grid, setting up warp locations, and scouts can really enhance fleet combat as a whole and you'll have to be a little bit more than just sort of nod off while the FC tells you what to F1 on.


Probing and tackling are already important roles in any fleet; what this change actually does is gets rid of the notion of a prober as a stand-alone role. The prober must also be a tackler, with all the risk that entails.

Instead of enriching fleet roles, we're collapsing them.

2. My second concern is about a very particular, but rather common, scenario: trying to catch cloaky, nullified, nearly-unscannable off-grid T3 links ships. In some configurations these can perma-AB at over 1km/s, aligned out to another safespot. The current best practice is to get a prober with perfect skills, a bonused ship, and virtue implants and have him warp a squad of fast tackle (T1 frigates/interceptors or specialized tackle bombers) on top of the boosting ship, hoping that one of them will be able to catch him before he reacts and warps away.

Catching these ships is already extremely difficult, and will be nearly impossible under the proposed changes. No bonused scanning ship will be able to tackle them, as they have at a minimum 5s lock delay after decloaking. No unbonused ship will be able to scan them down. In the time it takes for the prober to warp to the target and then have the tackle squad warp to him the 1km/s boosting ship will be out of range.

I have interests on both sides of this scenario, having hunted PL off-grid boosters with my perfect scanning alt during the recent Catch wars and with two of my own perfect combat boosting alts. I guess I won't mind having my boosting alts be effectively invulnerable for a while, but it does seem like poor balance.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
Insidious.
#45 - 2015-06-11 22:33:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Dunk Dinkle wrote:
It appears that to nerf bombers, you are nerfing all fleets.


It barely touches bombers. In fact on a sliding scale of "things this deserves to affect" to "things that didn't deserve it at all", it's the former that gets off most lightly and the latter that will feel the most pain.

Anyway, it's going to be implemented regardless of "feedback" so there's really no point to this.
Joran Jackson
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#46 - 2015-06-11 22:34:18 UTC
I think this is a fantastic change for wormholes. Anything that makes it harder for 50 man WH fleets to function gets a thumbs up from me.

I think this change is more about encouraging the small gang playstyle. I just love the new direction of all these balances, from the sov changes to this, to half a dozen other things that have been switched up, I think you are making the game more exciting for the average player. Don't let the salt get you down, Larrakin, the direction Eve is moving is a good one, and I think people will realize it eventually.
Rena Senn
Halal Gunnery
#47 - 2015-06-11 22:34:36 UTC
Makkari Kock wrote:
So a significant advantage is now awarded to the FC that brings his cov-ops alt to a fight/trip. We should keep making mechanics that offers advantages to fcs that multiboxes more and more accounts, because that doesn't burn them out.

When you are at it make it a requirement for one ship to sit in a safe spot while doing nothing to provide essential boosts to the fleet, and for another character to press one button and then do nothing else for 10 minutes so the big ships can come as well.

What an ingenious way to transfer more success from the members to the FCs.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2015-06-11 22:35:38 UTC
This is an appalling idea. Truly terrible.

I've no idea what you're trying to "fix" here, but it's like an atom bomb to kill a bug. Seriously.

The mind literally boggles.
Sten Taxi
No trouble in the midst
B.E.A.R.S.
#49 - 2015-06-11 22:36:35 UTC
Wormholers getting the short end of the stick again when making changes to null.
Lurch Aldent
Doomheim
#50 - 2015-06-11 22:36:38 UTC
Multiboxing miners just got tougher, particularly warping out of belt when neut enters system :-s
Sten Taxi
No trouble in the midst
B.E.A.R.S.
#51 - 2015-06-11 22:38:21 UTC
Lurch Aldent wrote:
Multiboxing miners just got tougher, particularly warping out of belt when neut enters system :-s

Stations (and other celestials) are still warpable, this only affects poses
Thom Mangum
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
#52 - 2015-06-11 22:38:43 UTC
No thanks
Jezza McWaffle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#53 - 2015-06-11 22:38:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jezza McWaffle
So you will now implement automatic bookmarking at a corporation and alliance level yes? Or is this just another way to **** up wormholers now. Since WE WILL have to wait for the bookmarks to propagate (up to 5-10 mins) unless we have to have a scout at the exact warp in at every single fight.

Example if you have a group consisting of more than just 1 corp.

Group A wants to fight Group B
Group A consists of multiple corps
Currently Group A can fleet warp onto the enemy fleet or wormhole without everyone involved having a propagated bookmark.
However after this change if the group does not have the bookmark then they have no way of getting into the fight at the same time as the rest of the fleet. So all fights will be delayed until everyone has the bookmarks <10 mins.

Good job CCP... Roll

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog
Lurch Aldent
Doomheim
#54 - 2015-06-11 22:40:42 UTC
Sten Taxi wrote:
Lurch Aldent wrote:
Multiboxing miners just got tougher, particularly warping out of belt when neut enters system :-s

Stations (and other celestials) are still warpable, this only affects poses


Don't want to warp to station or a planet when neuts roll through chap.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#55 - 2015-06-11 22:41:07 UTC
Just a note:

as i skimmed the htread i saw comments like "omg this terrible" or "this will kill xxx" you do know that none of this will make them change anything as that type of feed back is not very constructive. If you really want them to take notice, your best bet is to explain, in a calm manner and with as much detail as possible, why this will hurt XXX. you will have a higher chance of ccp going 'oh.. we did not think of that, right lets modify this' then just whining.

Personally, i can see what they are doing with having it so a scout will need to be in place for the others to warp to. and as i actually used to do things this way for years it does;t bother me (for some odd reason i would always forget fleet warp with my atls)

One thing that will be slightly annoying, is the lack of ability to fleet warp to corp book marks. As every member of the corp can see these, and as they can then warp to them on there, this sounds a bit counter intuitive to the 'everyone in the fleet must be able to warp to it on there own to use it' It would make better sense that if you are in a corp and have corp bm's you can fleet warp to it. outside of the corp you can't. Besides that, this will make a scout actually useful.

i'm good with this.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#56 - 2015-06-11 22:42:58 UTC
Ele Rebellion wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
ArmEagle Kusoni wrote:
So, to run anoms (in w-space) we can't easily warp there all together anymore. Everyone will need the probe scanner window open/have bookmarks or have to wait for one player to have landed. Alliance bookmarks would only make that slightly less of an issue.

That's just one example of how people will become unnecessarily more vulnarable, or things taking more time.


Anoms yes, Sigs no.


I believe you are mistaken.
Signatures Yes, Anoms no. (Anoms are the green sites you can warp to without scanning down. We should still be able to fleet warp to those)



Heh. I didn't word that clearly. Brevity was not my friend.

Yes, you'll be able to fleet warp to Anoms.
No, you won't be able to fleet warp to sigs.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Ele Rebellion
Vertex Armada
Man I Love Flying Spaceships
#57 - 2015-06-11 22:43:02 UTC
Aebe Amraen wrote:
I have two concerns with this change:

1. On a broad level, the stated intent of this change in the o7 show was to make specialized fleet roles like probing and tackling more important:

Quote:
The big goal is that we want fleet combat to be more involved. we really want players to be able to shine and show off their skills, and we think this change gives a bigger opportunity for specialized fleet members who specialize in tackling, probing, cloaky movement around the grid, setting up warp locations, and scouts can really enhance fleet combat as a whole and you'll have to be a little bit more than just sort of nod off while the FC tells you what to F1 on.


Probing and tackling are already important roles in any fleet; what this change actually does is gets rid of the notion of a prober as a stand-alone role. The prober must also be a tackler, with all the risk that entails.

Instead of enriching fleet roles, we're collapsing them.

2. My second concern is about a very particular, but rather common, scenario: trying to catch cloaky, nullified, nearly-unscannable off-grid T3 links ships. In some configurations these can perma-AB at over 1km/s, aligned out to another safespot. The current best practice is to get a prober with perfect skills, a bonused ship, and virtue probes and have him warp a squad of fast tackle (T1 frigates/interceptors or specialized tackle bombers) on top of the boosting ship, hoping that one of them will be able to catch him before he reacts and warps away.

Catching these ships is already extremely difficult, and will be nearly impossible under the proposed changes. No bonused scanning ship will be able to tackle them, as they have at a minimum 5s lock delay after decloaking. No unbonused ship will be able to scan them down. In the time it takes for the prober to warp to the target and then have the tackle squad warp to him the 1km/s probing ship will be out of range.

I have interests on both sides of this scenario, having hunted PL off-grid boosters with my perfect scanning alt during the recent Catch wars and with two of my own perfect combat boosting alts. I guess I won't mind having my boosting alts be effectively invulnerable for a while, but it does seem like poor balance.



Also have to take into consideration that the clones of the probing frigates often cost 3 or 4x that of the T3 Link ship.
Risk not worth the reward in killing probers anymore.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#58 - 2015-06-11 22:44:32 UTC
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
So you will now implement automatic bookmarking at a corporation and alliance level yes? Or is this just another way to **** up wormholers now. Since WE WILL have to wait for the bookmarks to propagate (up to 5-10 mins) unless we have to have a scout at the exact warp in at every single fight.

Example if you have a group consisting of more than just 1 corp.

Group A wants to fight Group B
Group A consists of multiple corps
Currently Group A can fleet warp onto the enemy fleet or wormhole without everyone involved having a propagated bookmark.
However after this change if the group does not have the bookmark then they have no way of getting into the fight at the same time as the rest of the fleet. So all fights will be delayed until everyone has the bookmarks <10 mins.

Good job CCP... Roll



not big on wh pvp' its been a few years, so if my meta on this is wrong, then my bad.

don;t you have a scout already getitng tackle for a fight? Usually when i go pop in whs its cause i did not see the scout on directional and i get caught before the fleet comes in to mop up. The time si get away is when idiots jump in the fleet to try and land on me without a point already sitting there getting the lock. So you just have to have your probe BM, then have your tackle come in and get tackle. but as i said, i'm out dated on wh pvp tactics.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Quiggle Queue
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2015-06-11 22:44:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Quiggle Queue
What if null-sec fleets could no longer fleet warp to stargates? The scattered arrival on gates would really hurt the gameplay of fleets navigating systems. It would be silly to do that right?

Thats what you are doing to do to wormholers if we cannot warp to a bookmarked wormhole.

Even if you exclude everything else from fleet warp,.... please allow fleet warps to wormholes.
Ele Rebellion
Vertex Armada
Man I Love Flying Spaceships
#60 - 2015-06-11 22:45:33 UTC
Lurch Aldent wrote:
Sten Taxi wrote:
Lurch Aldent wrote:
Multiboxing miners just got tougher, particularly warping out of belt when neut enters system :-s

Stations (and other celestials) are still warpable, this only affects poses


Don't want to warp to station or a planet when neuts roll through chap.


Just warp to the moon that the POS is on. (still be under the protection of the guns)