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Carnyx release - General feedback

First post First post First post
Author
John Lawyer
Doomheim
#2101 - 2015-06-24 22:48:48 UTC
to Joia's post.
Please, correct me, If I'm wrong - a colour vision defect is different for different people.
If so, we have even more reasons to make UI customizable (including icon's colour AND themes setup - remember RGB sliders).

Destrukter
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2102 - 2015-06-25 00:43:10 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
I have been active in the split off thread in regards to the icons as the main general thread is too noisy to make any decent headway in. But here I am.

Yes, the 90% issue needs a fix fast as does the colour blind. Yes I like the logic of the new sets and think it is more in the details of the implemntation that in the change itself.

A lot of the reaction is from people who have almsot automated their responses over the years to tge old ways and object to being asked to learn a new set. IF it is visible (90% and colour) and if it has an internal logic then I am ok with the change

Oh and drones need to look less like ships

​m


So in this post you talk about the icons being flawed but you chalk everyone else's negative response as being bitter and lazy.... It sounds like you are confused as to whom you are supposed to be representing. Someone slap a CCP sticker on his foreheadRoll
Michael Ruckert
Hohere Kavallerie-Kommando
#2103 - 2015-06-25 02:05:30 UTC
Panterata wrote:
So CCP Claymore or anyone else,

Do you need anymore pages and feedback as you can see that MAJORITY of the ppl want old icons back or at least to have an options to use them??


Last I saw, MAJORITY of people were online playing EVE with new icons.

"No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier

Vila eNorvic
#2104 - 2015-06-25 02:11:42 UTC
Michael Ruckert wrote:
Panterata wrote:
So CCP Claymore or anyone else,

Do you need anymore pages and feedback as you can see that MAJORITY of the ppl want old icons back or at least to have an options to use them??


Last I saw, MAJORITY of people were online playing EVE with new icons.

So . . . . . ?
Joia Crenca
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2105 - 2015-06-25 02:50:17 UTC
John Lawyer wrote:
to Joia's post.
Please, correct me, If I'm wrong - a colour vision defect is different for different people.
If so, we have even more reasons to make UI customizable (including icon's colour AND themes setup - remember RGB sliders).




Yes, the variety of color blind issues is pretty wide, so having a customizable UI would really be needed unless CCP has decided that they don't need those people to sub.

For Michael Ruckert,
Quote:
Last I saw, MAJORITY of people were online playing EVE with new icons.


People aren't going to run away at first. much of the subscriber/player base will try their best to work with change, but over time, unanswered issues will erode to the point of the game not having enough subscribers to go on. But CCP Claymore has replied with the results of some meetings at least, and we'll see how things look on SiSi. It'd be very nice if screenshots appear in a dev blog, btw, thanks!
Cleanse Serce
La Forge.
Toilet Paper.
#2106 - 2015-06-25 06:07:48 UTC
Joia Crenca wrote:
People aren't going to run away at first. much of the subscriber/player base will try their best to work with change, but over time, unanswered issues will erode to the point of the game not having enough subscribers to go on. But CCP Claymore has replied with the results of some meetings at least, and we'll see how things look on SiSi. It'd be very nice if screenshots appear in a dev blog, btw, thanks!


but over time, answered valid issues will make people get used to, notice that they actually see a more detailed grid, and live with it perfectly*, haters will quit Eve Online, and won't be missed.*
Jared Tobin
Bloodstone Industries
B.S.I.
#2107 - 2015-06-25 06:48:57 UTC
Michael Ruckert wrote:
Last I saw, MAJORITY of people were online playing EVE with new icons.
Just because people are online "playing EVE" doesn't necessarily mean they are "playing EVE with new icons".

There are plenty of other aspects of EVE that can be handled without the need of the overview, or even undocking for that matter - but require logging into EVE.

In-station: Economics (market placement, restocking manufactured production, pricing de/re-evaluation, financial profitability assessment, etc)
Science/Industry: (manufacturing, researching, copying, blueprint swapping and handling, T2/reverse engineering, etc)
POS Management: (checking, fueling, using, refining, harvesting, hauling, swapping BPOs/BPCs between divisions in labs and arrays, fuel manufacturing, etc)
Planetary Interaction: (colonization, setup, scanning, re-pinning, restarting all processing, changing processing inputs/outputs, reconfiguring interactions and layouts, routings, etc)
Corporation/Alliance Management. ...yeah: For those of us that have taken on more responsibility than other players, sometimes even more of the "boring stuff" of responsibility falls on us: That can take up logged on time as well: personal mail, corp mail, alliance mail, payroll/assignments, adverts, wallet division balancing (or as I call it: "doin' the books", which for my particular corporation includes various payroll issues, etc).

...and lest we not forget the simple In-Game Communications that requires actually logging in, or, in your words: "playing EVE".

Sadly, what I have noticed is that less people, not only in my corporation, but in other peoples' corporations (in and outside of my alliance) are all having a noticeable decrease in player activity (or the longevity in which they remain online), which especially affects multi-player involvement with exploration, mission-running or any other interaction with NPCs (or other players) that may require the overview for critical/intensive usage.
Orm Magnustat
Red Serpent Industries
Red Serpent Alliance
#2108 - 2015-06-25 07:03:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Orm Magnustat
Well, thats what i call arrogant and short-sighted:
Cleanse Serce wrote:
.....................
but over time, answered valid issues will make people get used to, notice that they actually see a more detailed grid, and live with it perfectly*, haters will quit Eve Online, and won't be missed.*

......but you probably fit well with the CCP staff in charge Cleanse.

The people you call "haters" and gloat over ther good riddance - mind to take a look at them? Many of those helped to pay CCP's bills for many years and invested largely in this game (be it in terms of money or time or both). Many of them couldnt be farther from your "professional complainers" and forum trolls.....
The eve universe is loosing dearly, when those respected friends and enemies are forced out.

Forced out by sub par development and rash changes to the UI, that for so many years allowed them to participate here.

John Lawyer wrote:
to Joia's post.
Please, correct me, If I'm wrong - a colour vision defect is different for different people.
If so, we have even more reasons to make UI customizable (including icon's colour AND themes setup - remember RGB sliders).


And thats exactly the point why the old Icons worked perfectly - important differences were transported through more than one channnel (shape AND color). No matter what kind of visual impairment you had, you never could confuse an empty white bracket with a red cross. And such clear distinctions also helped reaction times and instant sitiuational assesment of non vision impaired players. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to anticipate that the reduction of this grown funtionality will create frustration with part of the players. (and as we could learn in this thread exactly that was predicted by some CSM member)

yeah, good riddance with part of your loyal supporters and customers - for what gain ever .... Question
Cleanse Serce
La Forge.
Toilet Paper.
#2109 - 2015-06-25 07:35:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Cleanse Serce
Orm Magnustat wrote:
blah

Color blind issues will be answered, scaling issues will be answered.
What else do you want ?
Going back ?
You already know CCP won't go back, so why keep arguing about that ?
Quit playing or deal with it, but just stop saying you want them back, that's annoying / that's not making things goin further / we already know that.
All your arguments about less subsciptions are not working and don't seem to 'fear' CCP whatsoever, so just quit with it move forward. :)
I will for my part.

I can't wait to see how colorblind will respond to the changes comin on SiSi soon.
Panterata
BRUTAL GENESIS
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#2110 - 2015-06-25 08:15:47 UTC
Cleanse Serce wrote:
Orm Magnustat wrote:
blah

Color blind issues will be answered, scaling issues will be answered.
What else do you want ?
Going back ?
You already know CCP won't go back, so why keep arguing about that ?
Quit playing or deal with it, but just stop saying you want them back, that's annoying / that's not making things goin further / we already know that.
All your arguments about less subsciptions are not working and don't seem to 'fear' CCP whatsoever, so just quit with it move forward. :)
I will for my part.

I can't wait to see how colorblind will respond to the changes comin on SiSi soon.


haha dear...you hear and read only what you want..like CCP

If you only start reading at the beginning of this thread....

What else do you want ? - to use the old icons together with new ones

I will repeat my self like a idiot especially for you to UNDERSTAND for 100 time

PVP/PVE players DO NOT cares about new icons like station icons, belts icons, pos modules icons, star icons, gate icons etc etc.
PVP/PVE players cares ONLY for the ships icons - to be the same like the old ones for all ship classes!!
John Lawyer
Doomheim
#2111 - 2015-06-25 08:34:42 UTC  |  Edited by: John Lawyer
I suppose, if a person who gives a feedback is actually playing EVE, which means he/she pays for sub (with $ or with time) and generate content (by killing or dying or messing with market goods).
In other words - such people are valuable asset for whole EVE-Online project (because MMO without people is dead MMO).
So, to save the day (cover everyone's needs) it is logical to give users an option to chooice (customization tools, check box at least).
What do you say, Cleanse, is this the best option for all community and CCP itself? (because, I still did not understood why not, srsly)
Cleanse Serce
La Forge.
Toilet Paper.
#2112 - 2015-06-25 08:49:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Cleanse Serce
John Lawyer wrote:
I suppose, if a person who gives a feedback is actually playing EVE, which means he/she pays for sub (with $ or with time) and generate content (by killing or dying or messing with market goods).
In other words - such people are valuable asset for whole EVE-Online project (because MMO without people is dead MMO).
So, to save the day (cover everyone's needs) it is logical to give users an option to chooice (customization tools, check box at least).
What do you say, Cleanse, is this the best option for all community and CCP itself? (because, I still did not understood why not, srsly)


Asking for a customization, i have nothing against that.
Asking for an option to roll back, i don't like that.
Why ?
As simple as going backward is not something i want for Eve Online and see CCP doing this.

I wish as well that CCP could give us a full mod-able UI, but that would also put barriers between old-set players with their own UI, Alliance with their own UI, etcetera, i think that it would split the community more than everything else.

I wish that CCP did not take us away the RGB sliders from the UI months ago, specially with those glowing effect, it could've been awsome to chose theiur colors.
But i've dealt with it, and i moved on.
I'm still hopping that they will someday give it back.

Best option now is to adapt from those new icones, and help enhancing them AS THEY ARE, because we all know now that they (CCP) WILL NOT roll back or give any customizable options at all.
Panterata
BRUTAL GENESIS
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#2113 - 2015-06-25 08:57:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Panterata
Cleanse Serce wrote:


Best option now is to adapt from those new icones, and help enhancing them AS THEY ARE, because we all know now that they (CCP) WILL NOT roll back or give any customizable options at all.


adapt - this word is a little bit silly. If you are a boy and someone force you to become a girl are you going to adapt?!

Enhancing - yes..enhance new icons like old one
Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
#2114 - 2015-06-25 12:23:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Eraza
I feel I need to put this into perspective, after reading carefully through the graph at eve offline, and various wikipedia articles.
Incarna, the most cursed patch in eve history, knocked the player count from
56k(an unusual peak in itself, 4k higher then the months around),
to 51k, a month later, that's 8% of the playerbase, if we count in an extreme way.

A more balanced way would be to ignore the unusual top on june 19th, two days before Incarna release, and say, compare the 53k average peaks on may, to the 50k average in july, which is closer to 5% of the player base


In contrast, last week's peak was the lowest one since 2007, that I find
at 33k, down from 39k a month before.
long term data isnt in yet, but:
If i'm reading this right, that's a drop of 7k players, and at 15% of the player base.
And the down curve is still going.

Making Carnyx, do significantly MORE DAMAGE THAN INCARNA.
On top of that, the graph since 2014 does NOT look good, but I'll need to do more research before I'm willing to guess why that is.

But the bottom line is, at incarna, players complained their ****** off.
Then they staged a protest and shot up a statue.
At Carnyx, it looks like people just said "**** this, I quit"

Player login data thanks to http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility

Please someone tell me this is wrong.(and if so, why/how)
John Lawyer
Doomheim
#2115 - 2015-06-25 12:42:32 UTC
to Cleanse:
Thanks, I got your point, but still have some of your statements which are not clear for me.

[Correction]:
I did not mentioned complete rolling back - old and new variants should have its apropriate places (check Audio Settings as an example).

[Clarification]:
By term "best option" I mean solution that satisfies everyone's needs (no 'lose' party - only 'win-win').
Your statement looks like - "its best because we know (who exactly and by which way that knowledge is available?) that CCP wouldn't change it".
And it does not cover unsatisfied PVP'ers.
Also, I really "don't know" this, as you state, because I ground my expectations on my past positive experience with similar cases (remember 'black screen of death", gunz avatars etc... - CCP fixed them after users' feedback)

Sorry, but in current state your words sounds quite illogical for me.
But I would really appreciate if you'll clarify what do you mean by term "best option" then.

Not trolling, just want to make things as much clear as possible.

[Suggestion]:
Maybe there is a very important reason why this new stuff was implemented.
Maybe 90% of users aren't right when spkeaking about broken icon set.
If so, please, give us an answer - why it is better?
I strongly believe that well-grounded and logical explanation will beat all this mess in thread.
But for now all we can see is the sarcastic and unrespectful blog (you know what I mean).
All in all, we dont have to love each other - but we can try to cooperate with each other. We (users) have Blood, you (CCP) have Environment - lets do this like we did with "black screen of death" at least ;)
Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
#2116 - 2015-06-25 12:53:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Eraza
Putting this in a seperate post, to not distract from the point of the other post.
Personally, I have been feeling like eve hasn't had a lot of NEW stuff since that 2014 peak.
It's all rehash after rebalance, after ajustments. after asset update, which I'm honestly getting very tired of.

Reading through the patch notes on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansions_of_Eve_Online, the old expansions mostly had new stuff, and very little messing with pre-existing stuff.
And the old patches, when they did mess with old features, it was never removing any of it
(aside from the jukebox, I still miss the jukebox)

I just cant look forward to patches that have features like "we replaced parts of the UI"
I dread those patches, and then look to what new stuff there is.. often gets forgotten in the sidelines.
And I cant look forward to patches when there are this many of them, my focus on patches, in the new 6 week release schedule has changed from excitement, to trying to keep track of it all.


it feels like CCP has stopped TRYING to build up hype for expansions.
There used to be a lot of news about exciting things we should look forward to.
Where did that go?
Getting hard to market "expansions" when there are this many of them isnt it?
And with no marketing, players are surprised by patches, rather than looking forward to them.

Seriously I have lost count of the times I have logged on, to see everyone and their dog, go "oh, WTF? is it patch day now?"

CCP, please stop THAT approach.
bring back the days where we had a clear advance notice of a patch day(other than just being told to mark a spot every 6 weeks on the calendar)
And the days of "exciting things to come" news.
I remember my friends talking about what they wanted to do with the stratios, for WEEKS, before they actually got their hands on it.

In contrast, I HAD TO TELL PEOPLE THAT THERE WERE NOW T3 DESTROYERS.
that was TWO WEEKS ago.
THEY(plural) were SURPRISED.
Please notice the massive missed potential for building up hype and excitement.
That's a huge factor in keeping people playing.

Sorry for the caps section, but I'm not joking, it's happened several times now that I need to explain to people that something cool came in a recent patch.
I thought people were news blind or something, but then I thought to myself,
I'm not very clear on what's "coming soon", and I only knew of a few of those things because I read patch notes.
You used to have huge ads for "cool stuff coming soon"
Now I need to search for it.
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#2117 - 2015-06-25 13:39:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Vol Arm'OOO
Eraza wrote:
I feel I need to put this into perspective, after reading carefully through the graph at eve offline, and various wikipedia articles.
Incarna, the most cursed patch in eve history, knocked the player count from
56k(an unusual peak in itself, 4k higher then the months around),
to 51k, a month later, that's 8% of the playerbase, if we count in an extreme way.

A more balanced way would be to ignore the unusual top on june 19th, two days before Incarna release, and say, compare the 53k average peaks on may, to the 50k average in july, which is closer to 5% of the player base


In contrast, last week's peak was the lowest one since 2007, that I find
at 33k, down from 39k a month before.
long term data isnt in yet, but:
If i'm reading this right, that's a drop of 7k players, and at 15% of the player base.
And the down curve is still going.

Making Carnyx, do significantly MORE DAMAGE THAN INCARNA.
On top of that, the graph since 2014 does NOT look good, but I'll need to do more research before I'm willing to guess why that is.

But the bottom line is, at incarna, players complained their ****** off.
Then they staged a protest and shot up a statue.
At Carnyx, it looks like people just said "**** this, I quit"

Player login data thanks to http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility

Please someone tell me this is wrong.(and if so, why/how)


It makes more sense that Carnyx is a worse update then Incarna. I forget if Incarna had a kill switch for captains quarters from launch or it was added later, regardless, once the switch was added you could ignore CQ entirely. Moreover, CQ and the $1000 jeans didnt impact actual game play, so once you were undocked you could basically forget about Incarna entirely. With Carnyx CCP took a core mechanism that is in everybody's face all the time and broke it badly. There is no kill switch at the present for icons, so you cant ignore CCP's broken content. If Carnyx is so bad, why is it that People arent shooting the monument? Well times have changed and I think today there is just a lot more CCP fatigue. I get the feeling that People just don't feel that CCP is responsive to the desires of the core player base anymore. So People feel disaffected and are just voting with their feet. This has been a long time coming as it looks like numbers have been steadily dropping since 2011. CCP has been slowly driving its core away in an effort to make Eve more accessible and friendly for "new players" who just dont appear to be showing up - at least in numbers to offset the subscriptions that they are losing.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.

Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
#2118 - 2015-06-25 14:03:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Eraza
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
Eraza wrote:
*snip*


It makes more sense that Carnyx is a worse update then Incarna. I forget if Incarna had a kill switch for captains quarters from launch or it was added later, regardless, once the switch was added you could ignore CQ entirely. Moreover, CQ and the 1000 jeans didnt impact actual game play, so once you were undocked you could basically forget about Incarna entirely. With Carnyx CCP took a core mechanism that is in everybody's face all the time and broke it badly. There is no kill switch at the present for icons, so you cant ignore CCP's broken content. If Carnyx is so bad, why is it that People arent shooting the monument? Well I think there is CCP fatigue. I get the feeling that People just don't feel that CCP is responsive to the desires of the core player base anymore. This has been a long time coming as it looks like numbers have been steadily dropping since 2011. Times have changed, CCP has been slowly driving its core away in an effort to make Eve more accessible and friendly for "new players" who just dont appear to be showing up - at least in numbers to offset the subscriptions that they are losing. So People feel disaffected and are just voting with their feet.

This is pretty much what I feel.
I wonder which group is bigger, people that found an ad, and tried eve, or people that got pulled into eve by someone that was already playing?
well, CCP has some clue on that, but we can only guess.

The drop started in 2014 actually, February 9th 2014 was a peak(57213), and from there there has been steady decline.
In 2014 there was also a very sharp drop in the amount of communication CCP had with the playerbase.
That was the last ingame event with any actual actors present wasnt it?
That was also when the hype news stopped.
That was also when some of the top management structute inside CCP changed wasn't it?

And yeah, incarna CQ was forced for a while, and then they re-added the ability to let people ship-spin.
But that was graphics, in station, and didn't actually break core gameplay.
I am getting used to the new icons slowly, but they are still inferior to the old in many ways, and I note, I would have been happy to learn the new at my own pace, had this been an OPTION, like the map.
In particular, I don't want to PVP with the new icons, and competition, in exploration, is only really visible once yellow wrecks appear, that is VERY annoying.


I remember a time when I reccomended CCP as one of the best companies in gaming, due to the amount of communication with the playerbase.
I remember being proud to be an eve player back in 2003, when I was at a local tour they were holding, when they told us, that noone could work at CCP unless they were actively playing the game in question.

I'm sad to feel that this time has passed, and we are now facing another corporate brick wall.
Orm Magnustat
Red Serpent Industries
Red Serpent Alliance
#2119 - 2015-06-25 15:50:09 UTC
Eraza wrote:
I feel I need to put this into perspective, after reading carefully through the graph at eve offline, and various wikipedia articles.
Incarna, the most cursed patch in eve history, knocked the player count from
56k(an unusual peak in itself, 4k higher then the months around),
to 51k, a month later, that's 8% of the playerbase, if we count in an extreme way.

A more balanced way would be to ignore the unusual top on june 19th, two days before Incarna release, and say, compare the 53k average peaks on may, to the 50k average in july, which is closer to 5% of the player base


In contrast, last week's peak was the lowest one since 2007, that I find
at 33k, down from 39k a month before.
long term data isnt in yet, but:
If i'm reading this right, that's a drop of 7k players, and at 15% of the player base.
And the down curve is still going.

Making Carnyx, do significantly MORE DAMAGE THAN INCARNA.
On top of that, the graph since 2014 does NOT look good, but I'll need to do more research before I'm willing to guess why that is.

But the bottom line is, at incarna, players complained their ****** off.
Then they staged a protest and shot up a statue.
At Carnyx, it looks like people just said "**** this, I quit"

Player login data thanks to http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility

Please someone tell me this is wrong.(and if so, why/how)



Sadly, there is no one who can tell you that - cause you got it all right. Cry
I came to similar findings somewhere in the middle of this thread. Even considering the general downward trend for the last half a year you can clearly see an acceleration of the losses for those last weeks since the Carnyx expansion.

That said I feel double bitter when i read how "fellow-players" tell others to get lost and quit. Ugh
... same goes for the arrogance and ignorance from CCP staff.

Of course all the fanbois in this thread are absolutely correct when they now say, that a correlation doesnt prove a connection between two variables - but once you come out of the ivory tower and step into business, there is a limit of how long you can lie to yourself.

I at least really belief that sub par "expansions" effect player numbers. Shocked
Circumstantial Evidence
#2120 - 2015-06-25 17:52:33 UTC
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
It makes more sense that Carnyx is a worse update then Incarna. [...] Moreover, CQ and the $1000 jeans didnt impact actual game play, so once you were undocked you could basically forget about Incarna entirely.
A fair point, one affects gameplay more than the other. Incarna was a lot of fearmongering about macro-transactions and gold ammo. It threatened to unbalance gameplay. But if you're going to write about game-affecting changes, there's a "worse" change that collected more irritation than this one. It affected every player, even the ones that never undock. And now it's faded into the background and hardly mentioned: Unified Inventory. My prediction: given an equal amount of time, these overview icon changes will fade in their "infamy," just like the Unified Inventory overhaul has.