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[Carnyx] Sentry Drone Adjustments

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Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#61 - 2015-05-21 15:31:05 UTC
Can the Domi have access to fighters now, to balance the fact that Ishtars get access to heavy drones and sentries?
Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#62 - 2015-05-21 15:32:42 UTC

The 3-4% damage drop feels reasonable, the tracking I can't really argue with. The swap from optimal to falloff on the Garde feels a bit off but the extra falloff range could be useful. Overall semi skeptical but nothing that out of place.

Personally I despise sentries. But only on a ship that is not meant to fit them. On the Rattlesnake, Domi, and Armageddon I feel that they fit perfectly.

One thing that I have thought of to fix this is to add one or 2 bandwidth or m3 to sentries. Then replicate that addition on battleships only. This instantly limits the number of sentries none battleships can field while letting them stay on undersides hulls.
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2015-05-21 15:33:04 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Desudes wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tyr Dolorem wrote:
Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem?

Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both.


How about you nerf the fundamental problem of disjointed transversal and the ability to command an entity from 120km that can itself reach beyond even that on a hull size that is usually restricted to 30-70km engagements, rather than introducing nerfs that hurt non-abusive doctrines and are countered by the abusive doctrine by simply bringing more dudes?


The solution is far simpler - remove the Optimal range part of the double bonus on the Ishtar.

Let them choose either Range+Tank, or Damage - not all three at once.

Quote:
In other words: If you keep nerfing only the projection and damage of sentries, people will bring MORE of them, and it will become (even more) a doctrine that is useless to small groups and overpowered for large groups, because raw stats aren't the issue with the ishtar.


That will be the case until the fundamental problem of those double bonuses is resolves.

Long live the Wardens!


You're missing the point. Even if you reduce them to wardens, you stil allow for the ability to apply dps at range while maintaining full transversal. Reducing dps increases the amount of ishtars needed to reach critical mass, but it doesn't change the ship is holding etreme transversal with no negative effect to its own tracking, similar to missiles, but with missiles there is travel time and firewalls. Reducing the raw stats will lower the amount of corps/alliances able to field enough ishtars to be effective, but it will remain overpowered to those that can field the numbers. This is why the previous nerfs have done nothing but make fewer entities able to use the ship, but it hasn't changed anything to those throwing 250 ishtars at you.

In other words, its still overpowered in the situations its overpowered, but its weaker where it isn't. Kind of a bland way to balance things, imo. I'd rather see the ship reworked entirely than relegated to a similar function the rail Naga sees.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Borascus
#64 - 2015-05-21 15:33:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Borascus
It's not going to be problematic in the asymptote range of use.

New Ishtar pilots will face more risk in level 4's.

Raging null-sec fleets will lose a small amount of their net dps, less than 3%.

People working out of Mobile Depots will be unaffected.


The Deimos has 5 turret hardpoints with a 50% dmg bonus at level 5 cruiser + level 5 HAC, with space for 2 sentry, 1 Gecko or 5 medium. It does have an Armor Repair bonus though.


Jammed ship guns vs Jammed ship still using drones will still be a sore spot.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#65 - 2015-05-21 15:34:56 UTC
Zafrena Tyrleon wrote:

You're directing the nerfs to the wrong place. Re-adjust drone bandwidth across the board. Change Heavy Drones to 20 (and Geckos to 40), leave sentries alone and then juggle bandwidth on the hulls.

More work? Absolutely. But it's not a bandaid, it's a proper fix. If the Ishtar (and whatever other cruisers) can field only 4 Sentries, it's not quite BS-level damage anymore.


That would still be a N+1 problem - just bring 1 more Ishtar for every 5 other you field to match old DPS.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#66 - 2015-05-21 15:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Desudes wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tyr Dolorem wrote:
Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem?

Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both.


How about you nerf the fundamental problem of disjointed transversal and the ability to command an entity from 120km that can itself reach beyond even that on a hull size that is usually restricted to 30-70km engagements, rather than introducing nerfs that hurt non-abusive doctrines and are countered by the abusive doctrine by simply bringing more dudes?


The solution is far simpler - remove the Optimal range part of the double bonus on the Ishtar.

Let them choose either Range+Tank, or Damage - not all three at once, exceeding all the other HACs by a broken amount, even the Eagle.


This.

Shield isn't even the prescribed tank for the Ishtar in the first place, let alone allowing them to achieve a comfortable shield tank (and accompanying speed, and extra DDAs) with no trade offs thanks to....the hull bonus.ccp pls.
Valterra Craven
#67 - 2015-05-21 15:35:12 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tyr Dolorem wrote:
Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem?

Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both.


I'm curious, what evidence do you have to support your argument that both drones and hulls are the problem, as opposed to just drones, or just hulls. I've seen no data analysis posted by devs in this thread as to why they think sentries themselves are still the problem. Or are you guys just basing balancing decisions on gut feelings now? :P


http://i.imgur.com/GqTO6zd.png
http://i.imgur.com/cP7kPvH.png

Working as intended.

Feel free to provide me a Zealot setup that would match that at least within 10%. P

Bonuses being the obvious part, as has been said, you can't balance sentry carriers without looking at the weapon system as a whole.

P.S. Don't say, Shoot into their EM hole! Rectified by replacing one hardener. Cool



Shouldn't you be comparing them to their respective races? Aka bouncers to arties?
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#68 - 2015-05-21 15:36:55 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tyr Dolorem wrote:
Why are you nerfing the drones not the hulls that are the problem?

Because both the drones and the hulls are problems, and the solutions will involve ongoing changes to both.


I'm curious, what evidence do you have to support your argument that both drones and hulls are the problem, as opposed to just drones, or just hulls. I've seen no data analysis posted by devs in this thread as to why they think sentries themselves are still the problem. Or are you guys just basing balancing decisions on gut feelings now? :P


http://i.imgur.com/GqTO6zd.png
http://i.imgur.com/cP7kPvH.png

Working as intended.

Feel free to provide me a Zealot setup that would match that at least within 10%. P

Bonuses being the obvious part, as has been said, you can't balance sentry carriers without looking at the weapon system as a whole.

P.S. Don't say, Shoot into their EM hole! Rectified by replacing one hardener. Cool



Shouldn't you be comparing them to their respective races? Aka bouncers to arties?


Why? Ishtar is bonused in all sentries and all other racial drones.

Nice try.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Jaime Gomes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#69 - 2015-05-21 15:38:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaime Gomes
The biggest complain i have regarding sentries is that its a defense system witch drawbacks normally are pretty much looked aside.

What about this: make drones use CPU and PG like any other Offensive system in the game? I have to squeeze and maximize multiple skills so that many ships can be fitted "properly" without having to resort to buy implants/hardwires in order to function.

With drones i believe that is not the case. What about this idea?
Urandas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2015-05-21 15:40:01 UTC
Has their ever been plans to move Ishtars to having more powerful medium drones? Medium drone meta seems to have a better balance of having the damage from the drones more of either a secondary damage source or the ships that use medium drones such as pilgrams, curse, etc have a more ewar purpose. Unfortunately an Ishtar with medium drones wouldnt get the best damage. so maybe I just stated the reason why ishtars cant be shifted towards medium drones. meh, its an idea
Valterra Craven
#71 - 2015-05-21 15:41:02 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


Why? Ishtar is bonused in all sentries and all other racial drones.

Nice try.


Then why is the zealot any more of a valid comparison?
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2015-05-21 15:41:11 UTC
Obidiah Kane wrote:
I learn the Ishtar then...
I learn the Loki then...
I learn the Svipul then...
I learn the Domi then...

you are nerfing a lot of ships that new players set as desire targets...is there anyway you could advise us of your rebalance timetable in advance? ie. if you had told me end of last year the Ishtar and Domi I had been training toward (with my PVE toon) were going to have their balls cut off I would have gone Amarr/ Caldari like everyone else, and not wasted months of sub training 'meh' skills I thought were 'Wooo!' skills.

:( Sorry, just grumpy, everything seems to devalue after I have learnt it.

Please train for the Falcon.
Tyr Dolorem
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#73 - 2015-05-21 15:41:50 UTC
Urandas wrote:
Has their ever been plans to move Ishtars to having more powerful medium drones? Medium drone meta seems to have a better balance of having the damage from the drones more of either a secondary damage source or the ships that use medium drones such as pilgrams, curse, etc have a more ewar purpose. Unfortunately an Ishtar with medium drones wouldnt get the best damage. so maybe I just stated the reason why ishtars cant be shifted towards medium drones. meh, its an idea


It's called a gila.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#74 - 2015-05-21 15:41:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Valterra Craven wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


Why? Ishtar is bonused in all sentries and all other racial drones.

Nice try.


Then why is the zealot any more of a valid comparison?


You're serious aren't you?

Both the Zealot and the Ishtar are Heavy Assault Cruisers. People don't even remember, or know what ships like the Zealot, Muninn are.

Good job, CCP.

Tyr Dolorem wrote:
Urandas wrote:
Has their ever been plans to move Ishtars to having more powerful medium drones? Medium drone meta seems to have a better balance of having the damage from the drones more of either a secondary damage source or the ships that use medium drones such as pilgrams, curse, etc have a more ewar purpose. Unfortunately an Ishtar with medium drones wouldnt get the best damage. so maybe I just stated the reason why ishtars cant be shifted towards medium drones. meh, its an idea


It's called a gila.


Even better than the Ishtar in this department w/ 850 DPS, 82k EHP and faster too. (ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)ง

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Azure and Argent
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#75 - 2015-05-21 15:48:53 UTC
Xavier Azabu wrote:
Will this finally discourage people from using the Ishtar?


Nope. They still have great tank, great mobility, and best in class DPS.
Amanda MonteCarlo
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2015-05-21 15:49:16 UTC
Couple of fun facts about drones - current stats compared to other weapon systems - no skill bonuses applied.


Tracking:
bouncer - 0.019
1400's - 0.009

curator - 0.028
tachyon beam - 0.014

warden - 0.012
425 rail - 0.01

Yup 2x the tracking than large guns (except wardens) - maybe more tracking nerfs are required?

Damage: 0 lvl skills, faction medium range ammo(you need it to have similiar range as drones).

bouncer - 24dps - 36+54km range
1400's with titanium sabot - 13dps - 48+35km range

Tachyon with standard - 16dps - 53+20km range
Curator - 26dps - 42+12km range

425 rail with lead- 14dps - 58+24km range
Warden - 22dps - 60+42km range

Eve if you count hat domi has 7.5 effective drones vs 8-10 effective turrets of battleships the damage at range is way better for drones boats. Maybe DPS should be decreased a bit more.

Also projectiles suck, AC's need more range - barrage would be ok-ish if it had +100% fallof and selectable damage, and arty can't fit on anything.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#77 - 2015-05-21 15:50:45 UTC
Thanks, Amanda MonteCarlo.

People knew, CCP knew. Progress™ is being made.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Valterra Craven
#78 - 2015-05-21 15:51:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


Why? Ishtar is bonused in all sentries and all other racial drones.

Nice try.


Then why is the zealot any more of a valid comparison?


You're serious aren't you?

Both the Zealot and the Ishtar are Heavy Assault Cruisers. People don't even remember, or know what ships like the Zealot, Muninn are.

Good job, CCP.


Serious about my first question:

"I'm curious, what evidence do you have to support your argument that both drones and hulls are the problem, as opposed to just drones, or just hulls. I've seen no data analysis posted by devs in this thread as to why they think sentries themselves are still the problem."

We all know that the ishtar having access to sentries is stupid beyond belief (and by we I mean everyone but CCP) No one would think twice about the ranges of sentries if they were bs only and above weapons. Hell in that regard they are even underpowered compared to them considering some of the extreme ranges you can hit with rails and artys!

Yet, they keep nerfing sentries into the ground to try and fix this issue with the ishtar.

So my question is, what the hell are they looking at that they think sentries are still the problem?

As to your post, I'm not sure what point you were trying to prove as I already agree that the ishtar is stupid OP right now.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#79 - 2015-05-21 15:52:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Valterra Craven wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


Why? Ishtar is bonused in all sentries and all other racial drones.

Nice try.


Quote:
Then why is the zealot any more of a valid comparison?


You're serious aren't you?

Both the Zealot and the Ishtar are Heavy Assault Cruisers. People don't even remember, or know what ships like the Zealot, Muninn are.


Good job, CCP.


Serious about my first question:

"I'm curious, what evidence do you have to support your argument that both drones and hulls are the problem, as opposed to just drones, or just hulls. I've seen no data analysis posted by devs in this thread as to why they think sentries themselves are still the problem."

We all know that the ishtar having access to sentries is stupid beyond belief (and by we I mean everyone but CCP)

Yet, they keep nerfing sentries into the ground to try and fix this issue.

So my question is, what the hell are they looking at that they think sentries are still the problem?

As your post, I'm not sure what point you were trying to prove as I already agree that the ishtar is stupid OP right now.


Into the ground. Right. Roll

Look up the two posts above yours.

Into the ground - http://evenews24.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/zbg9Bbn-1024x702.png

Further into the ground - http://i.imgur.com/XJIWFZY.gif *

*Courtesy of Soldarius - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5616268#post5616268

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Valterra Craven
#80 - 2015-05-21 15:56:21 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


Into the ground. Right. Roll

Look up the two posts above yours.


Quick question. How many sentys can you deploy on a domi?
Quick question. How many artys can you fit on a mael?