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CCP - End Highsec Incursions

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Mario Putzo
#161 - 2015-04-27 18:06:52 UTC
Solecist Projec wrote:

The game has no zones.
One can fight anywhere.
To say that people should leave highsec if they want combat is nonsense.

If CCP wanted that, they would have removed player aggression from highsec.
Which would be a rather daft thing to do.

So your "concept" pretty much is only imaginary.


True but combat in HS is needlessly complex. I mean I can gank, but that is a pretty shallow combat experience, I can wardec someone but they tend to just dock up, or I can just go to areas of space where I am more likely to find folks who are more likely to desire a combat engagement, why buy milk from the store when you can just go to the cow and get it for free.
FunGu Arsten
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#162 - 2015-04-27 18:07:37 UTC  |  Edited by: FunGu Arsten
Mario Putzo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Never understood the QQ about PVE content rewards. If you think its fantastic, go do it. There is literally nothing stopping you from doing it. At all. Always amazes me that folks will whine about **** that others do when they can do it themselves. If Incursions were so awesomesauce than they would be the #1 source of ISK entering the game, but they aren't that crown goes to NS Ratting/Anoms.


Why leave highsec for more risky space if you are earning the same or more in highsec?

As for that "#1 source of isk" tidbit you are quoting it wrong. While null activities inject the most isk income levels for ratting is far below that of incursions. An incursion pilot will earn upwards of twice as much as your average anom ratter in null.


Make ISK in HS, go to LS/NS/WH to PVP. Not really a hard concept. There is nothing saying you have to live in space to use that space. vOv.


Also I am simply paraphrasing the numbers CCP showed at fanfest, where Nullsec Bounties represent the highest portion of ISK entering the game. Didn't say anything about individual incomes. So not sure what your point is in that regard. Incursions are pretty dank, but most of it is from LP, which isn't liquid ISK that ISK comes from other players who get it from sources like ratting, anoms and missions, with NS being the largest faucet by a sizable margin...fancy that.


you mean 200mil liquid isk + 42k LP isnt alot in highsec? per hour .. on 1 account - no scouts, no rent, no sov costs, all the highsec markets at your feet....

there's some crybabyies in here QQing about incursions but you can't ignore the hard facts of incursionmilk


EDIT/ADD: the problem with ccp numbers is that they're comparing "total isk from ALL null anoms" vs ' 3 average highsec incursions"
> the isk that an individual player can make per hour is the problem with incursions, and we haven't even talked about skillpoints needed (they're low) - all in highsec....

but then again, :D i'm making 250mil/hr right now
Mario Putzo
#163 - 2015-04-27 18:10:51 UTC
FunGu Arsten wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Never understood the QQ about PVE content rewards. If you think its fantastic, go do it. There is literally nothing stopping you from doing it. At all. Always amazes me that folks will whine about **** that others do when they can do it themselves. If Incursions were so awesomesauce than they would be the #1 source of ISK entering the game, but they aren't that crown goes to NS Ratting/Anoms.


Why leave highsec for more risky space if you are earning the same or more in highsec?

As for that "#1 source of isk" tidbit you are quoting it wrong. While null activities inject the most isk income levels for ratting is far below that of incursions. An incursion pilot will earn upwards of twice as much as your average anom ratter in null.


Make ISK in HS, go to LS/NS/WH to PVP. Not really a hard concept. There is nothing saying you have to live in space to use that space. vOv.


Also I am simply paraphrasing the numbers CCP showed at fanfest, where Nullsec Bounties represent the highest portion of ISK entering the game. Didn't say anything about individual incomes. So not sure what your point is in that regard. Incursions are pretty dank, but most of it is from LP, which isn't liquid ISK that ISK comes from other players who get it from sources like ratting, anoms and missions, with NS being the largest faucet by a sizable margin...fancy that.


you mean 200mil liquid isk + 42k LP isnt alot in highsec? per hour .. on 1 account - no scouts, no rent, no sov costs, all the highsec markets at your feet....

there's some crybabyies in here QQing about incursions but you can't ignore the hard facts of incursionmilk


And it is perfectly possible and acceptable for any pilot to engage in these activities. So again I am not sure what the issue is. If you want to suckle on the teet you only need to open your mouth. Elsewise its nothing but whining. If you want to live in 0.0 and only play in 0.0 cool, not everything is fair in EVE. Nothing at all stopping you from heading to HS every now and then to milk the cow. Seems like a bad case of entitlement to me.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#164 - 2015-04-27 18:12:13 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Somehow you also have to lose that mad isk no? Not that it's a balancing factor for the current income but what do people do with all those ISK beside buy another incursion boat after they managed to lose one? After the 800 ish mill for their PLEX and a let's say 400 mill as "insurance policy" in case they lose a boat, what do people spend all that on?


I have often wondered that myself. Only answer I have is there are people who suffer from dragon curse.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#165 - 2015-04-27 18:15:27 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:


And it is perfectly possible and acceptable for any pilot to engage in these activities. So again I am not sure what the issue is. If you want to suckle on the teet you only need to open your mouth. Elsewise its nothing but whining. If you want to live in 0.0 and only play in 0.0 cool, not everything is fair in EVE. Nothing at all stopping you from heading to HS every now and then to milk the cow. Seems like a bad case of entitlement to me.


The problem is that you are not getting rewarded for taking on more risk and effort. If CCP wants smaller corps and alliances out in nullsec then they are going to have to make it worth moving out there.
Solecist Project
#166 - 2015-04-27 18:16:14 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Solecist Projec wrote:

The game has no zones.
One can fight anywhere.
To say that people should leave highsec if they want combat is nonsense.

If CCP wanted that, they would have removed player aggression from highsec.
Which would be a rather daft thing to do.

So your "concept" pretty much is only imaginary.


True but combat in HS is needlessly complex. I mean I can gank, but that is a pretty shallow combat experience, I can wardec someone but they tend to just dock up, or I can just go to areas of space where I am more likely to find folks who are more likely to desire a combat engagement, why buy milk from the store when you can just go to the cow and get it for free.

I agree on that.
The biggest fun I ever had in highsec was as station grid bouncing, facpo evading -10,
with people on my ass and constant entertaining of the masses with kills or chat.

(don't believe a single word people say when they whine about the facpo)

That's not being offered anywhere else though.
Lowsec is rather boring and too easy and nullsec has bubbles, which I hate to the bone.

Anyhow that's far off topic.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#167 - 2015-04-27 18:17:45 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Decoy
Yawn, yet another of the stupid, trollish, and never ending nerf high sec income threads. Roll

No, OP. CCP has the numbers and a team that monitors the economic health of the game. If adjustments were needed then they would be made based off those numbers and not your selfish agenda.

*snip* Let's stay on topic and not encourage people to flame each other. ~ ISD Decoy
Solecist Project
#168 - 2015-04-27 18:22:14 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
FunGu Arsten wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Never understood the QQ about PVE content rewards. If you think its fantastic, go do it. There is literally nothing stopping you from doing it. At all. Always amazes me that folks will whine about **** that others do when they can do it themselves. If Incursions were so awesomesauce than they would be the #1 source of ISK entering the game, but they aren't that crown goes to NS Ratting/Anoms.


Why leave highsec for more risky space if you are earning the same or more in highsec?

As for that "#1 source of isk" tidbit you are quoting it wrong. While null activities inject the most isk income levels for ratting is far below that of incursions. An incursion pilot will earn upwards of twice as much as your average anom ratter in null.


Make ISK in HS, go to LS/NS/WH to PVP. Not really a hard concept. There is nothing saying you have to live in space to use that space. vOv.


Also I am simply paraphrasing the numbers CCP showed at fanfest, where Nullsec Bounties represent the highest portion of ISK entering the game. Didn't say anything about individual incomes. So not sure what your point is in that regard. Incursions are pretty dank, but most of it is from LP, which isn't liquid ISK that ISK comes from other players who get it from sources like ratting, anoms and missions, with NS being the largest faucet by a sizable margin...fancy that.


you mean 200mil liquid isk + 42k LP isnt alot in highsec? per hour .. on 1 account - no scouts, no rent, no sov costs, all the highsec markets at your feet....

there's some crybabyies in here QQing about incursions but you can't ignore the hard facts of incursionmilk


And it is perfectly possible and acceptable for any pilot to engage in these activities. So again I am not sure what the issue is. If you want to suckle on the teet you only need to open your mouth. Elsewise its nothing but whining. If you want to live in 0.0 and only play in 0.0 cool, not everything is fair in EVE. Nothing at all stopping you from heading to HS every now and then to milk the cow. Seems like a bad case of entitlement to me.

From my pov it's not the money, it's the lack of danger.

I believe for nullseccers it's not the money either,
but people not playing there because they have no reason to.

THAT BEING SAID makes it look weird though,
because it reduces most nullseccers to carebears.

This reminds me so much of all these morons who cry
I HAVE POWERFULL NULLSEC FRIENDS
when they are being ganked in highsec .............

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Black Pedro
Mine.
#169 - 2015-04-27 18:29:55 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
Yawn, yet another of the stupid, trollish, and never ending nerf high sec income threads. Roll

No, OP. CCP has the numbers and a team that monitors the economic health of the game. If adjustments were needed then they would be made based off those numbers and not your selfish agenda.

Hope this moronic rant gets locked for being redundant, non-constructive, trollish and inflammatory.

CCP has the numbers alright and they know they are too high - see page 125 of the 2014 CSM minutes.

CCP is waiting to see If the nullsec changes pull people back out to live in null. If they stay in highsec sucking on the teat of risk-free incursion ISK, which likely most will as it is too easy, then incursion income should expect a visit from the Nerf Bat soon.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Solecist Project
#170 - 2015-04-27 18:32:22 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Nick Bete wrote:
Yawn, yet another of the stupid, trollish, and never ending nerf high sec income threads. Roll

No, OP. CCP has the numbers and a team that monitors the economic health of the game. If adjustments were needed then they would be made based off those numbers and not your selfish agenda.

Hope this moronic rant gets locked for being redundant, non-constructive, trollish and inflammatory.

CCP has the numbers alright and they know they are too high - see page 125 of the 2014 CSM minutes.

CCP is waiting to see If the nullsec changes pull people back out to live in null. If they stay in highsec sucking on the teat of risk-free incursion ISK, which likely most will as it is too easy, then incursion income should expect a visit from the Nerf Bat soon.

You know..... what if the issue really is that most nullseccers are actually carebears?

Then no matter the amount, things would never change,
because people would be too scared to leave highsec anyway .....

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
FunGu Arsten
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#171 - 2015-04-27 18:38:45 UTC  |  Edited by: FunGu Arsten
Nick Bete wrote:
Yawn, yet another of the stupid, trollish, and never ending nerf high sec income threads. Roll

No, OP. CCP has the numbers and a team that monitors the economic health of the game. If adjustments were needed then they would be made based off those numbers and not your selfish agenda.

Hope this moronic rant gets locked for being redundant, non-constructive, trollish and inflammatory.


I dont want incursions nerfed or removed (they are fun at times) but i'm also aware the ccp does not have a clue how to read numbers. here is why:


average incursion "top 10" list :

incursion community moved 7-04-15 //14:07
incursion ended 10-04-15 //07:23

1 Vxxxxxx 1.050.000LP- 5,2 bil isk
2 5,0bil isk
3 4,4bil isk
4 3,9bil isk
5 3,8bil isk
6 3,7bil isk
7 3,4bil isk
8 3,4bil isk
9 Dxxxxxxxrd 589.680LP - 2,9 bil isk


So the top 10 have made on an individual lvl 5bil to nearly 3 bil in 2.5days doing incursions.
there are plenty of other incursion - top ten lists - where #1: 1mil lp, #9 is 700-800k lp in the course of 3days of incursions..

you can always "read" statistics to make them look in your favor, ccp chooses to not touch incursions as they have little to no interest in putting development into it i guess... but the numbers are there for you to read if you join some fleets..

Though, putting 2-3 bil isk in your wallet in 3 days of highsec cross shooting is enough numbers you need...

(Personaly i'm netting 10bil/week if doing incursions on my highsec character)

added: that top 10 list is good for a total of 35bil in 2, 5 days... however if you take that the pilot with most lp hs been in all fleets then you can say the total net income from this community ahs to be

40 x 4.5 bil : 180 bil in 2,5 days... in one incursion. (take in mind that 35 bil of this is already in the top 10)
Solecist Project
#172 - 2015-04-27 18:38:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Aaand if I take that thought even further ...
... then the real issue is actually the isk centric way of thinking.

They have proven time and time again that income does not balance things out properly ...
... as can be seen through lowsec buffs/highsec nerfs.

Yet for some reason people believe that reducing incursion income will make a difference.

That's a funny viewpoint ... and completely invalidates every singke argument about income
and how it makes people go here and there.

So ... what would drive more people to null is not raising their income ...
... or loweeing the income in highsec ...
... but making null safer than highsec.

Because then carebears would populate it.


YOU CAN HAVE THEM ALL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Paranoid Loyd
#173 - 2015-04-27 18:45:01 UTC
9/10 Nicely done

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#174 - 2015-04-27 18:45:25 UTC
Quote:
if you want to apply some risk go and war dec some of their corps or gank them, or get into an Incursion with a logi and let them die, but for the love of god stop whining about them because you are incapable of interdicting them, HTFU or WOW is more suited for you!



WORD.
Solecist Project
#175 - 2015-04-27 18:58:06 UTC
lol WORD he says, not actually thinking about what he read ...


PLEASE go dec them with a properly sized corp and see what it brings.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Eru GoEller
State War Academy
Caldari State
#176 - 2015-04-27 19:10:10 UTC
2Sonas1Cup wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
2Sonas1Cup wrote:
Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.

Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.

Many people run incursions to plex accounts log out for the month.

Theres little to no incentive to do anything else in the game once you start running incursions, you wont stop, and you will not do anything else other than your casual pvp on a random alt when the opportunity arises.

Incursions are a decease, they are killing/killed a major part of the game, took the need of doing and trying different things to make isks.

Hell theres not even a reason to leave highsec anymore, whats the incentive of null when you can make as much or even more in the safety of highsec?


Please put an end to incursions, its been far too long already, sanshas must go.


I don't run incursions, but I have no issues with other players enjoying them, if you want to apply some risk go and war dec some of their corps or gank them, or get into an Incursion with a logi and let them die, but for the love of god stop whining about them because you are incapable of interdicting them, HTFU or WOW is more suited for you!


you know most incursion groups tell you not to bother joining if you are wardecced, your argument is pretty invalid, incursion groups are aware of how to avoid the little risk involved.


So what there are still ways to attack them...


Please enlighten us with your ways.

Or more like, fail ways.


When incursions started there were a lot of mechanics to explore people werent aware of, many fleets used to lose ships every now and then through some of these mechanics.
But now its all said and done 90% of the risk is gone with very well known protective measures. Theres literally nothing that you can do about incursioners other than your regular gate ganking in between stages when people travel, even though you need a lot of planning, effort and pilots just to kill a single tanked battleship if all goes well.

Even goons fail to stop incursioners, unless its a random afk guy off a station not in fleet or something.
But thats not really the point of the thread anyway, and even if it was its something that doesnt happen and people dont bother with.

You know something is wrong when null players have highsec incursions alts to make isks for their null pvp activities.
Is that really the eve you want to play?

So, you have no ability to form fleet and kill the mom when that's is possible? That's one hi-sec incursion down and if your lucky there are no other around.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#177 - 2015-04-27 19:48:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:


And it is perfectly possible and acceptable for any pilot to engage in these activities. So again I am not sure what the issue is. If you want to suckle on the teet you only need to open your mouth. Elsewise its nothing but whining. If you want to live in 0.0 and only play in 0.0 cool, not everything is fair in EVE. Nothing at all stopping you from heading to HS every now and then to milk the cow. Seems like a bad case of entitlement to me.


The problem is that you are not getting rewarded for taking on more risk and effort. If CCP wants smaller corps and alliances out in nullsec then they are going to have to make it worth moving out there.


This is, of course, dead on. It's a sandbox - High Sec shouldn't be for making money so you can go spend it in areas that are for shooting at each other. This just results in the current syndrome where many areas are totally empty of content. All the sovereignty rebalances are for naught if you have secure, untouchable, incursion level income in high sec: why join up with something in null when the income is worse, you will be vulnerable all the time, and you have to defend or lose your holdings?

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#178 - 2015-04-27 19:49:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Oh look, it's this time of year again.....
Where we hate on 'carebears' (because labelling them as such allows dehumanising them) who are organised, have learnt fleet tactics, use doctrine fits, and work in groups of real players, who aren't allowed to make a profit.

With regards to Isk Faucets, Incursions are one of the smaller categories so there is no inflation issue. The last economic figures released only 70 people at once could make an average income of 100 mil/hour. If people are earning more then that means that there is also dead time in there where people aren't running incursions, or are making zero income due to being contested (Hey look, there is option 1 to stop them making money, steal it from them yourself). WH selling to NPC orders and Null ratting are both VASTLY larger Isk Faucets.

With regards to low & null incursions, look at Vanguards and what CCP did to the allowed fleet size in low & null for them. Put pressure on CCP to apply the same fleet size change to all incursion sites in low & null. Remember high sec is 70% payout compared to low & null incursions already, and low has the revenant drop. So individual income on low & null incursions is fine, but the fleets need to be larger so the fact they use cheaper fits to minimise risk (Hey look, Null & Low seccers being risk adverse, who would have ever thought!) doesn't result in slower site times.

Other than that, HTFU and stop attacking people for being successful at EVE.
P3ps1 Max
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#179 - 2015-04-27 19:57:11 UTC
Some quick points:

LP payout can be capped.

Isk payout can't because it will turn into a prestige club rather than a community event for high end dungeons.

Last time I checked, having blues in a system in Null is pretty safe.

Stealth I want to assist my fighter drones?
Syrilian
Doomheim
#180 - 2015-04-27 19:58:07 UTC
EVE online...where even the forums are PVP.