These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CCP - End Highsec Incursions

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1481 - 2015-11-27 17:04:22 UTC
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
Make your isk in high and be a bad boy in null, I suppose. Thats the deal. How well would incursions work in Null? Why should Highsec get nerfed, for everyone gets shot in Null because EvE?


That is exactly why high sec incursions are terrible. Places in EvE should not be 'for' something the way they are partitioned in other games. AegisSov's goals were to make people live in null, not just use it for sport and war games. I understand where there needs to be some 'safe' income in high sec so people can get back on their feet, sure, but simply having the best income around be in unlimited supply there, and in total safety, completely disenfranchises basically the entire rest of the game.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Avvy
Doomheim
#1482 - 2015-11-27 17:26:41 UTC
Valacus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Valacus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
I don't honestly get it.


I do.

Carebears always project.

In this instance, they project their fundamental selfishness and dishonesty onto whomever they're arguing with. They have a selfish ulterior motive for wanting incursions to stay, so they assume you must have one if you want them gone.


Hahaha, oh please. "Elite" PvPers are just as big of babies. "Waaaaaaaah! I can't force them into places where I can kill them easily!" The only one projecting here is you, because you're the one trying to force people to play or do what you want them to because you don't like what they do now. Well, it ain't up to you. Get used to it.


I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything.

I just think risk should equate to reward.

You clearly think you are entitled to all the reward and zero risk. You're wrong.


And you clearly think you're entitled to all the reward with your comparable risk, as it has been discussed to length that ratting in nullsec ain't all that scary.


Null-sec ratting is actually very safe, depending where you are.

But they are right when they say incursions in null are a problem. As those incursions in null could be in a neighbouring alliance controlled system.

I don't see the answer is in removing incursions but maybe null and low need something else on a comparable rate.
Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
#1483 - 2015-11-27 17:49:55 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
Make your isk in high and be a bad boy in null, I suppose. Thats the deal. How well would incursions work in Null? Why should Highsec get nerfed, for everyone gets shot in Null because EvE?


That is exactly why high sec incursions are terrible. Places in EvE should not be 'for' something the way they are partitioned in other games. AegisSov's goals were to make people live in null, not just use it for sport and war games. I understand where there needs to be some 'safe' income in high sec so people can get back on their feet, sure, but simply having the best income around be in unlimited supply there, and in total safety, completely disenfranchises basically the entire rest of the game.

Not trying to be difficult, but in my limited experience with EvE I got the impression that you will not make people leave Highsec. They just wont. Nerf incursions or buff them, few will even take notice.
Avvy
Doomheim
#1484 - 2015-11-27 17:57:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
Make your isk in high and be a bad boy in null, I suppose. Thats the deal. How well would incursions work in Null? Why should Highsec get nerfed, for everyone gets shot in Null because EvE?


That is exactly why high sec incursions are terrible. Places in EvE should not be 'for' something the way they are partitioned in other games. AegisSov's goals were to make people live in null, not just use it for sport and war games. I understand where there needs to be some 'safe' income in high sec so people can get back on their feet, sure, but simply having the best income around be in unlimited supply there, and in total safety, completely disenfranchises basically the entire rest of the game.

Not trying to be difficult, but in my limited experience with EvE I got the impression that you will not make people leave Highsec. They just wont. Nerf incursions or buff them, few will even take notice.



You won't be able to force people out of high-sec. you shouldn't even try as it'll be a completely wasted effort.

If you want people to leave high-sec, then low and null need to be more appealing, but even that may not be enough. Because moving to low-sec and null raises the possibility of losing more stuff, which is fine in itself but it's the affordability of the player (perceived) that maybe the deciding factor and that will be different for every player.
Valacus
Streets of Fire
#1485 - 2015-11-27 18:40:43 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
Make your isk in high and be a bad boy in null, I suppose. Thats the deal. How well would incursions work in Null? Why should Highsec get nerfed, for everyone gets shot in Null because EvE?


That is exactly why high sec incursions are terrible. Places in EvE should not be 'for' something the way they are partitioned in other games. AegisSov's goals were to make people live in null, not just use it for sport and war games. I understand where there needs to be some 'safe' income in high sec so people can get back on their feet, sure, but simply having the best income around be in unlimited supply there, and in total safety, completely disenfranchises basically the entire rest of the game.


Only places in EVE are already partitioned the way you don't want them to be. It will always be that way, regardless of how AegisSov or you want it to be. AegisSov wanted to make people live in null. Well, news to him, but he can't. He can't make people do anything. Removing incursions just drives everyone back to mission grinding and high sec anoms. Mission not accomplished. Those unwilling to adapt will just quit EVE. Mission not accomplished. Null sec will remain at the same population or less. Mission not accomplished. The currently partitioned areas will remain partitioned. Since only 1.5% of people in EVE even run incursions, 98.5% of the player base won't even notice that they're gone. You really think that removing incursions is going to affect anything at all what-so-ever? That 1.5% aren't rich because they run incursions. They're rich because they're the hardcore 1.5%. They will simply find something else to be hard core about and still be rich and fat. What are you going to nerf then? Attitude? Limit the amount of time people can log in? Ban math? Nerf economics? Limit SP accumulation? There's nowhere in the aftermath where you get anything even remotely close to what you want from removing high sec incursions, other than removing content from the game.

You also vastly underestimate the extent to which null sec alliances that do live in null farm ISK and how rich said alliances are. PL and friends lost 59 titans, among other supers and caps, in one night and still managed to recover. I doubt even incursion runners could cover that loss not to mention not all, or even the majority of, incursion runners are PL alts. Null sec alliances are super freakin' rich. Don't tell me farming null sec doesn't pay, or even that farming null sec is high risk.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1486 - 2015-11-27 19:19:59 UTC
The more ironic point is that nerfing incursions in High-Sec would be a rather large nerf to income from DED sites in Null as well. Where do you think people are using those nice Gist and Pith modules at?

Everything has a cause and effect, Jenn is very short sighted in this aspect as usual. His hate for all things High-Sec clouds proper thinking.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1487 - 2015-11-27 19:31:50 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
The more ironic point is that nerfing incursions in High-Sec would be a rather large nerf to income from DED sites in Null as well. Where do you think people are using those nice Gist and Pith modules at?

Everything has a cause and effect, Jenn is very short sighted in this aspect as usual. His hate for all things High-Sec clouds proper thinking.


Don't worry, people will find other stuff to put deadspace modules on.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1488 - 2015-11-27 19:34:22 UTC
Avvy wrote:



Null-sec ratting is actually very safe, depending where you are.

But they are right when they say incursions in null are a problem. As those incursions in null could be in a neighbouring alliance controlled system.

I don't see the answer is in removing incursions but maybe null and low need something else on a comparable rate.


Ratting in null is only as safe has the locals manage to make it. We don't have a NPC police force punishing every criminal action. We have to keep people out or hunt them out if they came in.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1489 - 2015-11-27 19:34:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
The more ironic point is that nerfing incursions in High-Sec would be a rather large nerf to income from DED sites in Null as well. Where do you think people are using those nice Gist and Pith modules at?

Everything has a cause and effect, Jenn is very short sighted in this aspect as usual. His hate for all things High-Sec clouds proper thinking.


Your problem is you think everyone is like you.

If the price of balance is less wealth in my wallet from high end DED sites because incursion runners buy less bling. I say so be it. Or did you really expect me to be as selfish as you and your kind?
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1490 - 2015-11-27 19:35:14 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
The more ironic point is that nerfing incursions in High-Sec would be a rather large nerf to income from DED sites in Null as well. Where do you think people are using those nice Gist and Pith modules at?

Everything has a cause and effect, Jenn is very short sighted in this aspect as usual. His hate for all things High-Sec clouds proper thinking.


Don't worry, people will find other stuff to put deadspace modules on.



The market isn't even buying up the glut right now... you want to take a few thousand Vindicator fits and dump those mods on the market and remove their demand too? I guess economics isn't important to this huh?

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1491 - 2015-11-27 19:36:34 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
The more ironic point is that nerfing incursions in High-Sec would be a rather large nerf to income from DED sites in Null as well. Where do you think people are using those nice Gist and Pith modules at?

Everything has a cause and effect, Jenn is very short sighted in this aspect as usual. His hate for all things High-Sec clouds proper thinking.


Don't worry, people will find other stuff to put deadspace modules on.



The market isn't even buying up the glut right now... you want to take a few thousand Vindicator fits and dump those mods on the market and remove their demand too? I guess economics isn't important to this huh?


We'll put the mods on our ratting boat that might get killed instead of on incursion boat that dies once in a blue moon.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1492 - 2015-11-27 19:36:50 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
The more ironic point is that nerfing incursions in High-Sec would be a rather large nerf to income from DED sites in Null as well. Where do you think people are using those nice Gist and Pith modules at?

Everything has a cause and effect, Jenn is very short sighted in this aspect as usual. His hate for all things High-Sec clouds proper thinking.


Your problem is you thing everyone is like you.

If the price of balance is less wealth in my wallet from high end DED sites because incursion runners buy less bling. I say so be it. Or did you really expect me to be as selfish as you and your kind?



"Your kind"

Make your opponent whoever you want them to be to make them easier to discredit.

But yeah, I don't run incursions because there is far better isk in this game than that... but you won't talk about that.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1493 - 2015-11-27 19:41:33 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
The more ironic point is that nerfing incursions in High-Sec would be a rather large nerf to income from DED sites in Null as well. Where do you think people are using those nice Gist and Pith modules at?

Everything has a cause and effect, Jenn is very short sighted in this aspect as usual. His hate for all things High-Sec clouds proper thinking.


Your problem is you thing everyone is like you.

If the price of balance is less wealth in my wallet from high end DED sites because incursion runners buy less bling. I say so be it. Or did you really expect me to be as selfish as you and your kind?



"Your kind"

Make your opponent whoever you want them to be to make them easier to discredit.

But yeah, I don't run incursions because there is far better isk in this game than that... but you won't talk about that.


Your kind is high sec partisans and reality deniers. It's not just incursion runners with vested interests that do that.

If nerfing my imaginary space income results in a better Combat PVE balance in EVE, Then CCP should nerf it. I'm already asking them to nerf my high sec income (incursions), so why not? This game was much better PVE wise when CCP didn't try to throw 'rewards' at everything in themepark social engineering fashion (ie it was better prior to 2009).
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1494 - 2015-11-27 19:46:24 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
The more ironic point is that nerfing incursions in High-Sec would be a rather large nerf to income from DED sites in Null as well. Where do you think people are using those nice Gist and Pith modules at?

Everything has a cause and effect, Jenn is very short sighted in this aspect as usual. His hate for all things High-Sec clouds proper thinking.


Your problem is you thing everyone is like you.

If the price of balance is less wealth in my wallet from high end DED sites because incursion runners buy less bling. I say so be it. Or did you really expect me to be as selfish as you and your kind?



"Your kind"

Make your opponent whoever you want them to be to make them easier to discredit.

But yeah, I don't run incursions because there is far better isk in this game than that... but you won't talk about that.


Your kind is high sec partisans and reality deniers. It's not just incursion runners with vested interests that do that.

If nerfing my imaginary space income results in a better Combat PVE balance in EVE, Then CCP should nerf it. I'm already asking them to nerf my high sec income (incursions), so why not? This game was much better PVE wise when CCP didn't try to throw 'rewards' at everything in themepark social engineering fashion (ie it was better prior to 2009).


But you know I don't live in High-Sec, and you know I have been in this game for over a decade. And you know these things because we have been over it again, but you continue to paint me with a false brush because you have no real validity to your argument.

Why It would even matter where I live or what I do when you completely skirt the idea of discussing anything without personal attacks and outright lies is comical.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1495 - 2015-11-27 19:49:17 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

But you know I don't live in High-Sec, and you know I have been in this game for over a decade. And you know these things because we have been over it again, but you continue to paint me with a false brush because you have no real validity to your argument.

Why It would even matter where I live or what I do when you completely skirt the idea of discussing anything without personal attacks and outright lies is comical.


What comical is you pretending to not be a pro high sec anti null zealot. Where you live and what you do is irrelevant, no one cares about that but you.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1496 - 2015-11-27 20:27:55 UTC
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
Make your isk in high and be a bad boy in null, I suppose. Thats the deal. How well would incursions work in Null? Why should Highsec get nerfed, for everyone gets shot in Null because EvE?


That is exactly why high sec incursions are terrible. Places in EvE should not be 'for' something the way they are partitioned in other games. AegisSov's goals were to make people live in null, not just use it for sport and war games. I understand where there needs to be some 'safe' income in high sec so people can get back on their feet, sure, but simply having the best income around be in unlimited supply there, and in total safety, completely disenfranchises basically the entire rest of the game.

Not trying to be difficult, but in my limited experience with EvE I got the impression that you will not make people leave Highsec. They just wont. Nerf incursions or buff them, few will even take notice.



It's not trying to force anyone to do anything. It's trying to make null worth it for the people who are already there. If you like running incursions, sure, knock yourself out; very few are probably advocating removing them wholesale. What they are advocating is making them not completely disrupt the risk/reward equilibrium of the rest of the game.

The blood raider sites are a good example, a good model of how resources should work. Those sites being both limited and in hostile space generated lots of player content, and properly gated the opportunity cost of those goods behind both effort and risk. HS incursions are risk free, in safe space, and always available, yet pay out in large excess to those things that are neither safe nor readily available and accessible. That's why they are a problem.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1497 - 2015-11-27 20:33:55 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
Make your isk in high and be a bad boy in null, I suppose. Thats the deal. How well would incursions work in Null? Why should Highsec get nerfed, for everyone gets shot in Null because EvE?


That is exactly why high sec incursions are terrible. Places in EvE should not be 'for' something the way they are partitioned in other games. AegisSov's goals were to make people live in null, not just use it for sport and war games. I understand where there needs to be some 'safe' income in high sec so people can get back on their feet, sure, but simply having the best income around be in unlimited supply there, and in total safety, completely disenfranchises basically the entire rest of the game.

Not trying to be difficult, but in my limited experience with EvE I got the impression that you will not make people leave Highsec. They just wont. Nerf incursions or buff them, few will even take notice.



It's not trying to force anyone to do anything. It's trying to make null worth it for the people who are already there. If you like running incursions, sure, knock yourself out; very few are probably advocating removing them wholesale. What they are advocating is making them not completely disrupt the risk/reward equilibrium of the rest of the game.

The blood raider sites are a good example, a good model of how resources should work. Those sites being both limited and in hostile space generated lots of player content, and properly gated the opportunity cost of those goods behind both effort and risk. HS incursions are risk free, in safe space, and always available, yet pay out in large excess to those things that are neither safe nor readily available and accessible. That's why they are a problem.



First of all the blood raider sites were not limited anywhere, they were all over the place, random. So not sure what you are getting at here.

Second Incursions are not risk free when you almost always have to move your bling ships through ganking chokepoints to get to the next iteration and the NPCs themselves are second to sleepers in difficulty.

Also incursions are not readily available or accessible as they at best support around 160 players at a time if both iterations are active. You start to lose massive isk per hour when you have to contest and someone is walking away with nothing.

1.5% of the population run incursions. No one cares about incursions except a group of butt hurt null-sec players who can't just ignore them and feel hell-bent on changing the way those 1.5% of the game play.

Personally I would love it if they got rid of incursions and replaced them with better content, but the way you guys are sneaking the "nerf high-sec" into the argument is ridiculous.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1498 - 2015-11-27 21:19:31 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
First of all the blood raider sites were not limited anywhere, they were all over the place, random. So not sure what you are getting at here.


I'm not sure where you were, Market Mcselling Alt, but everyone who was undocked during the event saw a huge wave of content and activity over the gauntlet sites...and it wasn't just player meets rats, player kills rats, player gets loot. People were out looking for sites, running gate camps, evading hunters, trying to find as much of a limited resource as possible, or just doing the opposite and hunting people running them. Either way, there was a lot of player content spurred by PvE; this is the way it ALL should be. Incursions do not foster actual player content at all, its 100% against a computer....in a game that prides itself on player interaction. Their limited nature made the gauntlets worth fighting for in all areas of space - there was a trade off between Hi Sec (most competition) and other areas (actually dangerous). Incursions have the best income, in the best space - no trade offs, no interesting decisions, and even worse, no player content.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Second Incursions are not risk free when you almost always have to move your bling ships through ganking chokepoints to get to the next iteration and the NPCs themselves are second to sleepers in difficulty.


Single-handedly the most disingenuous thing I have read on these forms all day. The NPCs were challenging for maybe a week or so until the fits and site running strategies were refined to a science; to claim they actually present a challenge now is silly at best. Red Frog has what, a 99.8% success ratio of moving freighters through HS? I am not really convinced there is risk moving Incursion BS unless you actually go ahead and make yourself a target and make tons of mistakes during moving.

I have felt actually threatened once, ever, in an incursion and it was in null, and it wasn't to rats. So no, rats and things that go bump in Hi Sec really are not threatening at all. Essentially zero risk.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Aquilan Aideron
Wardecs go here
#1499 - 2015-11-27 22:36:32 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Aquilan Aideron wrote:
Make your isk in high and be a bad boy in null, I suppose. Thats the deal. How well would incursions work in Null? Why should Highsec get nerfed, for everyone gets shot in Null because EvE?


That is exactly why high sec incursions are terrible. Places in EvE should not be 'for' something the way they are partitioned in other games. AegisSov's goals were to make people live in null, not just use it for sport and war games. I understand where there needs to be some 'safe' income in high sec so people can get back on their feet, sure, but simply having the best income around be in unlimited supply there, and in total safety, completely disenfranchises basically the entire rest of the game.

Not trying to be difficult, but in my limited experience with EvE I got the impression that you will not make people leave Highsec. They just wont. Nerf incursions or buff them, few will even take notice.



It's not trying to force anyone to do anything. It's trying to make null worth it for the people who are already there. If you like running incursions, sure, knock yourself out; very few are probably advocating removing them wholesale. What they are advocating is making them not completely disrupt the risk/reward equilibrium of the rest of the game.

The blood raider sites are a good example, a good model of how resources should work. Those sites being both limited and in hostile space generated lots of player content, and properly gated the opportunity cost of those goods behind both effort and risk. HS incursions are risk free, in safe space, and always available, yet pay out in large excess to those things that are neither safe nor readily available and accessible. That's why they are a problem.

You feel you can restore the equilibrium by nerfing some niche content?
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#1500 - 2015-11-27 23:00:07 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Either way, there was a lot of player content spurred by PvE; this is the way it ALL should be. Incursions do not foster actual player content at all, its 100% against a computer....in a game that prides itself on player interaction. .



So your solution is to nerf the one PVE content piece that REQUIRES player interaction...

Tell me again how you aren't a complete hypocrite?

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.