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CCP - End Highsec Incursions

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#101 - 2015-04-27 13:36:28 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
The entire risk vs reward argument is flawed. The fastest way to make ISK in the game, in terms of ISK per hour is station trading. It carries absolutely zero risk of losing a ship, as you never need to undock.

Given the existence of station trading, I see nothing wrong with incursions.


Station trading does come with risk.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#102 - 2015-04-27 13:36:47 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
The entire risk vs reward argument is flawed. The fastest way to make ISK in the game, in terms of ISK per hour is station trading. It carries absolutely zero risk of losing a ship, as you never need to undock.

Given the existence of station trading, I see nothing wrong with incursions.


not really you face pvp in market trading daily, you dont in incursions

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Mr Duffo
SQUIDS.
#103 - 2015-04-27 13:38:08 UTC
I would say remove incursions from low sec. So many times my cruisers have died to gate rats :D Most will abandon the area till incursion is over

Skeggǫld, Skálmǫld, Skildir ro Klofnir!

Never forget! #OICXmassacre2014
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#104 - 2015-04-27 13:38:31 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
FunGu Arsten wrote:

lol, actualy as said before it isn't balanced, the isk injection is stupid high for no risk. that doesn't mean we're not allowed to do it - aka: milk the cow.


That's what I do, because I don't see it changing.


Fun fact, the more people getting on the "milk the cow" bandwagon, the lesser the income will be because the number of sites at the same time is limited. No more than 15 HQ fleet (this would already be lower isk/hours because of the delay to get another site would start showing up) will ever be able to get a payout at the same time. 600 character can effectively max it out. If everybody were to put their bling ship where their mouth is, everybody would constantly get contested and chance are incursion would be in "respawn" mode more often after episode of rage popping moms.
Solecist Project
#105 - 2015-04-27 13:38:36 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
The entire risk vs reward argument is flawed. The fastest way to make ISK in the game, in terms of ISK per hour is station trading. It carries absolutely zero risk of losing a ship, as you never need to undock.

Given the existence of station trading, I see nothing wrong with incursions.

Except that traders are risking billions,
because trading is a PvP activity.

You're not a trader it seems.
Traders can't predict what will happen,
unlike incursion runners.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#106 - 2015-04-27 13:39:18 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
take Deklin for example that is safer than hisec


Please provide any evidence that this is the case. Just a quick glance at the KB shows that ratting ship losses dwarf any high sec mission/incursion area despite the far higher population of highsec.


Already proved that in another thread, despite certain removals from that thread.


You proved nothing. Hundreds of losses in null vs a dosen in highsec mission areas. The argument the highsec is more dangerous is a lie.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#107 - 2015-04-27 13:39:45 UTC
2Sonas1Cup wrote:
Or drastically drop their payouts not the point of killing them but to a more balanced level compared to other highsec activities.

Highsec Incursions payout WAY too much for the risk and time you take.

I often dream of how the hisec community would self-solve problems like this, if CCP locked people out of NPC corps after 60 days and closed the drop-corp wardec dodging exploit.

F

Would you like to know more?
Solecist Project
#108 - 2015-04-27 13:40:24 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
FunGu Arsten wrote:

lol, actualy as said before it isn't balanced, the isk injection is stupid high for no risk. that doesn't mean we're not allowed to do it - aka: milk the cow.


That's what I do, because I don't see it changing.


Fun fact, the more people getting on the "milk the cow" bandwagon, the lesser the income will be because the number of sites at the same time is limited. No more than 15 HQ fleet (this would already be lower isk/hours because of the delay to get another site would start showing up) will ever be able to get a payout at the same time. 600 character can effectively max it out. If everybody were to put their bling ship where their mouth is, everybody would constantly get contested and chance are incursion would be in "respawn" mode more often after episode of rage popping moms.

Reminds me of how the griefers raged about the goons for killing their moms.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#109 - 2015-04-27 13:44:09 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
The entire risk vs reward argument is flawed. The fastest way to make ISK in the game, in terms of ISK per hour is station trading. It carries absolutely zero risk of losing a ship, as you never need to undock.

Given the existence of station trading, I see nothing wrong with incursions.



That's just insane. "Risk v Reward" in this instance is describing what you can do via in-space activities that actually generate wealth. Trading doesn't generate isk, it's a player run emergent activity where players exchange things.

In other words, station trading has nothing to do with this discussion. We are talking about activities that actually create the isk and items that station traders use. Without PVE , station traders wouldn't exist.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#110 - 2015-04-27 13:45:10 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
FunGu Arsten wrote:

lol, actualy as said before it isn't balanced, the isk injection is stupid high for no risk. that doesn't mean we're not allowed to do it - aka: milk the cow.


That's what I do, because I don't see it changing.


Fun fact, the more people getting on the "milk the cow" bandwagon, the lesser the income will be because the number of sites at the same time is limited. No more than 15 HQ fleet (this would already be lower isk/hours because of the delay to get another site would start showing up) will ever be able to get a payout at the same time. 600 character can effectively max it out. If everybody were to put their bling ship where their mouth is, everybody would constantly get contested and chance are incursion would be in "respawn" mode more often after episode of rage popping moms.

Reminds me of how the griefers raged about the goons for killing their moms.


With the amount of traction threads like this get, I can't understand why no-one was ever able to motivate 40 dudes to go run a 100+ million isk/hours fleet while also raining on someone else's parade at least partially by stealing some of the best sites.

Then make that 80 dudes and you start to slowdown everybody because sites are not insta-respawning and you also pose a thread to the mom.

Hell you can make it a bit more risky by even solo by pre-loading TCRC sites. A good group will get over it but it's still a tighter spot then smooth sailing the original site from scratch.
2Sonas1Cup
#111 - 2015-04-27 13:48:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
The entire risk vs reward argument is flawed. The fastest way to make ISK in the game, in terms of ISK per hour is station trading. It carries absolutely zero risk of losing a ship, as you never need to undock.

Given the existence of station trading, I see nothing wrong with incursions.


Station trading does come with risk.


1st no, you don't make nearly as much isk and as consistently with station trading as you can with incursions.
Been there done that, on top of all the effort you have to put out on your .01 pvp

2nd if there were as many people station trading as there are running incursions then you wouldn't make single penny, be glad not many people trade properly and there's still enough economy for you.
Solecist Project
#112 - 2015-04-27 13:52:22 UTC
I think you quoted the wrong person, 2boobs1cup.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
FunGu Arsten
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#113 - 2015-04-27 13:52:33 UTC  |  Edited by: FunGu Arsten
Solecist Project wrote:
FunGu Arsten wrote:
2Sonas1Cup wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
i too want to see youtube video of blown up machariel/vindi and logi fleet in highsec Cool


Just wait 5 more years.

FunGu Arsten is planning.


Or should we say,.. hes planning to kill his own fleet because hes a incursion FC.

And then show us on the forums that incursioners arent safe and the isks we make in highsec incursions is balanced.



lol, actualy as said before it isn't balanced, the isk injection is stupid high for no risk. that doesn't mean we're not allowed to do it - aka: milk the cow.

as for burning down a full hq fleet: get 4-5 logi alts, fly incursions for a couple of days on each. On one particular sunny afternoon get all logis in the fleet and stop repping in a TCRC, abandon wrecks when popped * bring in neutral tanked ROKH fit with salvager and tractorbeams

Collect billions - while you rep yourself - when done colllecting free loot, align out and when the rokh is taking scrams warp out 4 -5 logis and sacrifice the hero rokh after you've stored loot in the logis.

\O/ see some chat channels close on you while you count the isk.

Thanks for posting how you would do it.

I can see that you agree the risk is pretty much non existant,
because this approach ... fully legitimate ... is a one trick pony ...
... which needs a huge amount of investment for a one time thing.


Any other ideas that could actually have an impact?


As i said, it's possible if you coordinate, its possible if you want to risk it. The "you cant do it reply" is all i was counter arguing.

however, if you want to do it with pure gank power.
use Alpha and do it inside the site. many ganks have failed because they gank on the gates. (added: with catalysts and talos, the logis can rep the first volley off and walk away with no losses while concord cleans up the baddies)

Inside: sansha dps + gank dps= alot of confused logis + overwelming damage on the field.

At this point you need to look at how easy does ganking have to be - how are you going to collect the 2-3+ bil that will drop per battleship?

Making a comment with "see you agree that there is little risk" makes you look like you are ignoring everything said before in this thread... read my previous posts : incursions are risk free, but you CAN still do something as a player if you choose to act. ( the same way mission runners aren't safe, the same way any other player isn't safe in highsec)

SO back to you, how much effort do you wish to put into popping loot piniatas...
2Sonas1Cup
#114 - 2015-04-27 13:59:27 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
FunGu Arsten wrote:

lol, actualy as said before it isn't balanced, the isk injection is stupid high for no risk. that doesn't mean we're not allowed to do it - aka: milk the cow.


That's what I do, because I don't see it changing.


Fun fact, the more people getting on the "milk the cow" bandwagon, the lesser the income will be because the number of sites at the same time is limited. No more than 15 HQ fleet (this would already be lower isk/hours because of the delay to get another site would start showing up) will ever be able to get a payout at the same time. 600 character can effectively max it out. If everybody were to put their bling ship where their mouth is, everybody would constantly get contested and chance are incursion would be in "respawn" mode more often after episode of rage popping moms.

Reminds me of how the griefers raged about the goons for killing their moms.


With the amount of traction threads like this get, I can't understand why no-one was ever able to motivate 40 dudes to go run a 100+ million isk/hours fleet while also raining on someone else's parade at least partially by stealing some of the best sites.

Then make that 80 dudes and you start to slowdown everybody because sites are not insta-respawning and you also pose a thread to the mom.

Hell you can make it a bit more risky by even solo by pre-loading TCRC sites. A good group will get over it but it's still a tighter spot then smooth sailing the original site from scratch.


There used to be couple people back then when isbox was a thing. But still there are plenty of sites and most of the times more than 1 incursion just in highsec.

Most recent one is a guy with 40 nightmares, but hes just one more fleet and rarely runs anymore.
It is just absurd the amount of multitasking and setup you need to do it solo without keybroadcasting isbox feature.

You also can't possibly believe you would solo contest another fleet and win with nightmares do you? ^^
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#115 - 2015-04-27 13:59:57 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
The entire risk vs reward argument is flawed. The fastest way to make ISK in the game, in terms of ISK per hour is station trading. It carries absolutely zero risk of losing a ship, as you never need to undock.

Given the existence of station trading, I see nothing wrong with incursions.

Except that traders are risking billions,
because trading is a PvP activity.

You're not a trader it seems.
Traders can't predict what will happen,
unlike incursion runners.

Ive done quite a bit of trading in my time. I still do a little, but have cut way down due to the repetitious spreadsheet nature of the activity.
Although the trader does not know exactly what will happen, its almost a given that the margin will not disappear in the few hours between the buy order and the sell order. I have never lost money on a station trade cycle.

Incursions are also PvP in that you have to contest sites. Ive been in several fleets where we got zero from a site due to the actions of other players.

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Frozen fanfiction
Aladar Dangerface
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2015-04-27 14:00:34 UTC
Otso Bakarti wrote:
Aladar Dangerface wrote:
Otso Bakarti wrote:
There it is... "cheapens...low or null sec". This is just another "move everyone in high sec to low and null so we have more people to gank, since rental gaming is so BORING" thread. So, it's an impromptu conspiracy. Big smile

Take the tinfoil hat off please, no one is saying everyone should move to null/low/wh space, they are saying 'why should they earn less isk while risking more than someone earning a lot of isk while risking very little'.

EVE is based on risk vs reward which is why people hate on incursions and if you actually read what people are saying you would know this already.
Try reading the subject line of the OP. The "tin foil hat" reference is tired, and worn.

I have read the OP first line, the discussion has moved on from merley 'Ending HighSec Incurions'

However if you want me to go all the way back i will; Ending incusrions would be really bad for the game, people in high sec should be able to earn isk, however someone should be able to earn more if they are willing to put more at risk.

The balance is out of line, its as simple as that and if your that much of a pompus asshat to realise this then i can give you a great example:

I used to live in wh space, i used to run C3 anoms in a 1 bill tengu, i earned about as much as an incrusion runner earns HOWEVER the risk factor involved in what i used to do compaired to running incursions is far higher (i never lost my tengu but there were several attempts to kill it and i have seen many other players lose them).

Do you understand now why it is imbalanced or are you just one of these 3 year olds that wont listent to reason what so ever?

I don't need twitter. I'm already following you.
Solecist Project
#117 - 2015-04-27 14:04:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
I did not write what you posted.
Don't put words in my mouth.

Okay so you say alpha can do it.
That's right.

This brings up the next questions:

Is it worth it enough to fund another run? (loot mechanics apply of course)
Is it actually disrupting the activity?

Because one trick ponies don't count.
Shooting down one ship doesn't count either,
as it doesn't disrupt the activity.

I'll just ignore the rest, because you will just put more words into my mouth.

Thanks!


Edit: Okay I can see how my words could have been misunderstood.
I meant that your words show that you agree that there is no risk,
I did not want to imply you said otherwise.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#118 - 2015-04-27 14:05:39 UTC
2Sonas1Cup wrote:


There used to be couple people back then when isbox was a thing. But still there are plenty of sites and most of the times more than 1 incursion just in highsec.

Most recent one is a guy with 40 nightmares, but hes just one more fleet and rarely runs anymore.
It is just absurd the amount of multitasking and setup you need to do it solo without keybroadcasting isbox feature.

You also can't possibly believe you would solo contest another fleet and win with nightmares do you? ^^


I never said you had to solo it. Why do you insist on being able to give trouble or at least slow down a fleet of 40 by your own self? How hard is it to form your own fleet with actual player instead of trying to do it all by yourself?

I guess the incursion runners friends are just as OP as the CFC's friends.

We shoud nerf friends. That way, no one would see the mad ISK of incursion.
Solecist Project
#119 - 2015-04-27 14:08:46 UTC
This thread should be changed intk ...

What can we do to continuously disrupt the activity of incursion runners?

That would put it into a better view.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#120 - 2015-04-27 14:10:14 UTC
Aladar Dangerface wrote:


However if you want me to go all the way back i will; Ending incusrions would be really bad for the game, people in high sec should be able to earn isk, however someone should be able to earn more if they are willing to put more at risk.


Fun fact, the incursion runners making the most ISK also put more at risk than the ones putting less. Get a low bling fleet and compare their income to a full blinged out fleet and you will see putting more at risk affect the total payout.

What you want is not "more at risk" but "same at more risk".