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CCP - End Highsec Incursions

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Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1081 - 2015-11-20 09:32:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
Kinete Jenius wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Valacus wrote:
The one non-PvP activity you actually have to have a group for(not just multi-boxing 3 accounts) and you want to get rid of it? Should we just call the game multi-box online? If Incursions really make that much ISK, then go run them yourself. It's the one PvE activity that requires a fleet. What's wrong with that having a decent payout? Of course that should pay more than soloing Lvl 4s. It should pay more than most things in high sec, if not everything.


shouldnt pay more than everything else in the game though should it? and it shouldnt be more worthwhile running them in highsec than anywhere else

This has to be a troll. Level 4s in highsec make more an hour per character than incursion fleets. Pirate missions make more per hour. FW missions make more an hour than incursions. WHs make many times more an hour than incursions. Hell AFKtars in null make as much an hour as some incursion runners. PI done right can make far more isk per hour of effort than incursions. Station trading alts make more per hour than you could ever imagine getting in an incursion. Incursions in low and null makes far more an hour than in highsec. You're so wrong you can't even get that last simple concept right.


I can keep going on but really what's the point?


Lan Wang wrote:
why do you need 3 accounts to live in null?

nullsec pay is fine you just feel incursions are more worthwhile because the risk is far less which makes them more worthwhile.

highsec incursions pay far too much for the risk involved
If you feel that way then bring the risk yourself. You can do that you know.

AtramLolipop wrote:
Don't be silly incursions are run by a small group of players, and i bet bottom dollar most of them are accounts of people who play in null sec mainly. changing HS incursions won't change a thing, people want a safe way to make isk to experience the game by other means.
My experience is that there are elements of null present in incursions. It's nice to be able to take a break from the hectic activity of null while still experiencing group content.


lol no they do not!

explain how you calculate isk/hr in station trading, oh station trading has pvp too so theres the risk, you can lose a ton of isk in station trading, not to mention freighter ganks

Null anoms 120mil an hour max, in nullsec with a carrier. risk, you aint making more isk/hr in an ishtar than an incursion runner makes so stop being silly

pirate missions, unknown isk/hr in the middle of nullsec. risk, please let me know the isk/hr numbers you have got for running pirate lvl 4's.

FW missions, yes your right they do make more, in lowsec with risk, no doubt they will be getting nerfed at some point too

Null and low incursions, whats the point when the difference is hardly debatable compared to highsec.

Its already been explained you cant just "gank" an incursion fleet so the risk isnt really there, please explain how to gank an incursion fleet

Incursions are run by 1% of the playerbase yet make half the amount of isk the whole of nullsec makes, dont tell me highsec incursions dont pay out too much.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
StuRyan
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#1082 - 2015-11-20 10:31:21 UTC  |  Edited by: StuRyan
Quote:

Maybe you can expand on what you mean by "experience the game"? Highsec incursions remove the financial benefit of living in low or null, and therefore it removes a lot of players from these areas of space leading to fewer people in space to shoot at.


No it doesn't, incursions are on a "limited space" basis, in proportion only a very small number of people fly incursions. Did you not see the latest economy report? Clearly shows that null sec and low sec ISK faucets are still the biggest in the game. Like I said it's not HS that is killing null sec, your killing null sec from within.

Quote:
Not only that but the ridiculous isk/hr achievable means that to be competitive with other players in PvP you'll probably be flying a t2 or t3. Lowering highsec incursion payouts would lead to lower value ships being used more regularly and more target in dangerous space looking for riches. Why give people such a safe way to make isk and be surprised that they use it?


That ridiculous amount of isk/hr is achieved only when you have a large enough fleet and complete cooperation and coordination with everyone in that fleet. If one person doesn't pull their weight your ridiculous isk.per is seriously reduced, and BTW have you ever grinded through a TPPH wall? That's enough pain to also kill your isk/hour. Again, I will say, incursions are the only thing in the game that requires everyone to embody what an Eve player wants from a game.

Quote:
Let's just use a personal example of how incursions remove content. I recently skilled for marauders to run C4 wormhole sites; the price of a marauder and my fit was around 1.7b ISK. Now my options to make that ISK are plex, missions, WH sites, incursions, null anoms, or industry (there may be others). Out of those the best paid are incursions at ~120m/hr or group running (haven't bought the marauder at this point) C4 sites making less isk for more risk. So the best risk /reward option is to go back to highsec and run incursions until I can afford the marauder, meaning one less pilot out in WH space. It isn't just me who thinks this way and each one pilot in HS rather than elsewhere makes the game worse for everyone.


No I actually think this is more to do with your playing style. And once again, you are not considering the ISK Sink of incursions.

Quote:
Edit: it is worth keeping in mind the vested interest of people who currently make loads out of incursions and don't want change. They like having nice toys with little time invested, as all of us do. However is having a blingy ship worth having a dead nullsec?


NULL SEC ISN'T BEING KILLED BY INCURSIONS HOW MANY MORE TIMES DO YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU THIS? IT'S BEING KILLED BY YOUR LACK OF WILLINGNESS TO CREATE CONTENT ON THE BASIS THAT YOU SIGN IN EVERY DAY IN SAFE SPACE DUE TO THE AMOUNT OF BLUES AND SIZE OF ALLIANCE.
Avvy
Doomheim
#1083 - 2015-11-20 10:40:29 UTC
StuRyan wrote:


Quote:
Edit: it is worth keeping in mind the vested interest of people who currently make loads out of incursions and don't want change. They like having nice toys with little time invested, as all of us do. However is having a blingy ship worth having a dead nullsec?


NULL SEC ISN'T BEING KILLED BY INCURSIONS HOW MANY MORE TIMES DO YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU THIS? IT'S BEING KILLED BY YOUR LACK OF WILLINGNESS TO CREATE CONTENT ON THE BASIS THAT YOU SIGN IN EVERY DAY IN SAFE SPACE DUE TO THE AMOUNT OF BLUES AND SIZE OF ALLIANCE.


What you say here kind of reminds me of Warhammer Online may it R.I.P.

Some people like to be on the winning side (partially because more game resources become available to them) so they switch side and the sides become even more out of balance until neither side is really enjoying the game.
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#1084 - 2015-11-20 10:44:55 UTC
StuRyan wrote:
Quote:

Maybe you can expand on what you mean by "experience the game"? Highsec incursions remove the financial benefit of living in low or null, and therefore it removes a lot of players from these areas of space leading to fewer people in space to shoot at.


No it doesn't, incursions are on a "limited space" basis, in proportion only a very small number of people fly incursions. Did you not see the latest economy report? Clearly shows that null sec and low sec ISK faucets are still the biggest in the game. Like I said it's not HS that is killing null sec, your killing null sec from within.

Quote:
Not only that but the ridiculous isk/hr achievable means that to be competitive with other players in PvP you'll probably be flying a t2 or t3. Lowering highsec incursion payouts would lead to lower value ships being used more regularly and more target in dangerous space looking for riches. Why give people such a safe way to make isk and be surprised that they use it?


That ridiculous amount of isk/hr is achieved only when you have a large enough fleet and complete cooperation and coordination with everyone in that fleet. If one person doesn't pull their weight your ridiculous isk.per is seriously reduced, and BTW have you ever grinded through a TPPH wall? That's enough pain to also kill your isk/hour. Again, I will say, incursions are the only thing in the game that requires everyone to embody what an Eve player wants from a game.

Quote:
Let's just use a personal example of how incursions remove content. I recently skilled for marauders to run C4 wormhole sites; the price of a marauder and my fit was around 1.7b ISK. Now my options to make that ISK are plex, missions, WH sites, incursions, null anoms, or industry (there may be others). Out of those the best paid are incursions at ~120m/hr or group running (haven't bought the marauder at this point) C4 sites making less isk for more risk. So the best risk /reward option is to go back to highsec and run incursions until I can afford the marauder, meaning one less pilot out in WH space. It isn't just me who thinks this way and each one pilot in HS rather than elsewhere makes the game worse for everyone.


No I actually think this is more to do with your playing style.

Quote:
Edit: it is worth keeping in mind the vested interest of people who currently make loads out of incursions and don't want change. They like having nice toys with little time invested, as all of us do. However is having a blingy ship worth having a dead nullsec?


NULL SEC ISN'T BEING KILLED BY INCURSIONS HOW MANY MORE TIMES DO YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU THIS? IT'S BEING KILLED BY YOUR LACK OF WILLINGNESS TO CREATE CONTENT ON THE BASIS THAT YOU SIGN IN EVERY DAY IN SAFE SPACE DUE TO THE AMOUNT OF BLUES AND SIZE OF ALLIANCE.


Oh I'm killing nullsec, wow I didn't realise I had that much power; you sound quite upset perhaps you should try relax.

If you read the dev blog it says:

"You can see some interesting and unexpected things like the fact that only 1.5% of players run Incursions and 13.8% of players engage in PVP on any given day. The former is especially interesting considering the fact that incursion payouts were the 3rd largest ISK faucet in September, at 8.3T ISK, which you'll see this later in this blog, and on top of this is the added value of Concord LP payouts for clearing incursions."

Key words being on any given day. It says nothing about the total amount of people who run incursions, but based on them being the 3rd largest isk faucet I'd say there's a lot more than 1% of players running them over the course of a month. Remember you can make a plex in one day if you tried hard so no need to run them every day. You can say that I'm risk averse and to an extent I would agree with you, but it's human nature. Why would I risk anything if I don't need to and there's no benefit for taking the risk? My example still stands as (anecdotal) evidence that incursions provide incentive to go solo in highsec.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1085 - 2015-11-20 10:52:06 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:

Oh I'm killing nullsec, wow I didn't realise I had that much power; you sound quite upset perhaps you should try relax.

If you read the dev blog it says:

"You can see some interesting and unexpected things like the fact that only 1.5% of players run Incursions and 13.8% of players engage in PVP on any given day. The former is especially interesting considering the fact that incursion payouts were the 3rd largest ISK faucet in September, at 8.3T ISK, which you'll see this later in this blog, and on top of this is the added value of Concord LP payouts for clearing incursions."

Key words being on any given day. It says nothing about the total amount of people who run incursions, but based on them being the 3rd largest isk faucet I'd say there's a lot more than 1% of players running them over the course of a month. Remember you can make a plex in one day if you tried hard so no need to run them every day. You can say that I'm risk averse and to an extent I would agree with you, but it's human nature. Why would I risk anything if I don't need to and there's no benefit for taking the risk? My example still stands as (anecdotal) evidence that incursions provide incentive to go solo in highsec.

Except as I posted earlier, it's inconclusive statistics. Since we don't see how many hours are actually being spent on incursions vs other dedicated types of PvE. Since they lumped literally every other kind of PvE together including a miner who killed a 1.0 rat which are so weak they die when you sneeze at them with a civilian gun.
So without a proper look at income by hours of effort and a far more detailed breakdown of types of PvE and levels of income, all people are doing is raging and misusing statistics. Which is well..... very common on EVE forums to misuse statistics of course.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1086 - 2015-11-20 10:52:19 UTC
StuRyan wrote:
Quote:

Maybe you can expand on what you mean by "experience the game"? Highsec incursions remove the financial benefit of living in low or null, and therefore it removes a lot of players from these areas of space leading to fewer people in space to shoot at.


No it doesn't, incursions are on a "limited space" basis, in proportion only a very small number of people fly incursions. Did you not see the latest economy report? Clearly shows that null sec and low sec ISK faucets are still the biggest in the game. Like I said it's not HS that is killing null sec, your killing null sec from within.

Quote:
Not only that but the ridiculous isk/hr achievable means that to be competitive with other players in PvP you'll probably be flying a t2 or t3. Lowering highsec incursion payouts would lead to lower value ships being used more regularly and more target in dangerous space looking for riches. Why give people such a safe way to make isk and be surprised that they use it?


That ridiculous amount of isk/hr is achieved only when you have a large enough fleet and complete cooperation and coordination with everyone in that fleet. If one person doesn't pull their weight your ridiculous isk.per is seriously reduced, and BTW have you ever grinded through a TPPH wall? That's enough pain to also kill your isk/hour. Again, I will say, incursions are the only thing in the game that requires everyone to embody what an Eve player wants from a game.

Quote:
Let's just use a personal example of how incursions remove content. I recently skilled for marauders to run C4 wormhole sites; the price of a marauder and my fit was around 1.7b ISK. Now my options to make that ISK are plex, missions, WH sites, incursions, null anoms, or industry (there may be others). Out of those the best paid are incursions at ~120m/hr or group running (haven't bought the marauder at this point) C4 sites making less isk for more risk. So the best risk /reward option is to go back to highsec and run incursions until I can afford the marauder, meaning one less pilot out in WH space. It isn't just me who thinks this way and each one pilot in HS rather than elsewhere makes the game worse for everyone.


No I actually think this is more to do with your playing style. And once again, you are not considering the ISK Sink of incursions.

Quote:
Edit: it is worth keeping in mind the vested interest of people who currently make loads out of incursions and don't want change. They like having nice toys with little time invested, as all of us do. However is having a blingy ship worth having a dead nullsec?


NULL SEC ISN'T BEING KILLED BY INCURSIONS HOW MANY MORE TIMES DO YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU THIS? IT'S BEING KILLED BY YOUR LACK OF WILLINGNESS TO CREATE CONTENT ON THE BASIS THAT YOU SIGN IN EVERY DAY IN SAFE SPACE DUE TO THE AMOUNT OF BLUES AND SIZE OF ALLIANCE.


Here you just assume everyone lives in sov space, take a look at it from an npc nullsec point of view and tell me if making isk in npc space is more worthwhile than highsec incursions

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
StuRyan
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#1087 - 2015-11-20 10:57:47 UTC  |  Edited by: StuRyan
Lan Wang wrote:


Here you just assume everyone lives in sov space, take a look at it from an npc nullsec point of view and tell me if making isk in npc space is more worthwhile than highsec incursions


Yes, it's the same story:

Firstly, it's your choice to live in NPC null sec. There are regions that you can make a lot of isk in, some regions have better true sec than sov space not to mention the vast amount of unused moons.
Secondly, you're trading off, It's not like you own the space so why should you get anywhere near the same level of ISK faucets? Thirdly, you could live in NPC null in a 1 man corp and still get by.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1088 - 2015-11-20 11:11:23 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Except as I posted earlier, it's inconclusive statistics.


Incomplete, but hardly inconclusive.

The mere proportions alone show that incursions are likely going to be on the chopping block. 1.5% of the population making that much raw isk, to say nothing of the LP? It's astonishing that it's lasted as long as it has.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1089 - 2015-11-20 11:28:37 UTC
StuRyan wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:


Here you just assume everyone lives in sov space, take a look at it from an npc nullsec point of view and tell me if making isk in npc space is more worthwhile than highsec incursions


Yes, it's the same story:

Firstly, it's your choice to live in NPC null sec. There are regions that you can make a lot of isk in, some regions have better true sec than sov space not to mention the vast amount of unused moons.
Secondly, you're trading off, It's not like you own the space so why should you get anywhere near the same level of ISK faucets? Thirdly, you could live in NPC null in a 1 man corp and still get by.


hmmm you dont own highsec so why should you have faucets higher than sov?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Avvy
Doomheim
#1090 - 2015-11-20 11:31:36 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
StuRyan wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:


Here you just assume everyone lives in sov space, take a look at it from an npc nullsec point of view and tell me if making isk in npc space is more worthwhile than highsec incursions


Yes, it's the same story:

Firstly, it's your choice to live in NPC null sec. There are regions that you can make a lot of isk in, some regions have better true sec than sov space not to mention the vast amount of unused moons.
Secondly, you're trading off, It's not like you own the space so why should you get anywhere near the same level of ISK faucets? Thirdly, you could live in NPC null in a 1 man corp and still get by.


hmmm you dont own highsec so why should you have faucets higher than sov?



Are there no incursions in sov space?

If not maybe they need a few to shake them up a bit.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1091 - 2015-11-20 12:08:06 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

That's the same as saying "if you think crack kills people, just don't smoke it yourself" lol.

I run incursions among other things (I ran high sec lvl 5s too even though that was a bug, if it's there, im gonna use it).. Unbalanced is unbalanced whether you participate or not. A few hundred characters generating the 3rd largest isk faucet in a game of hundreds of thousands of characters (where as it takes a whole lot to generate the 1st and second isk faucets) is broken no matter how you try to sugar coat it.

So please prove what numbers actually generate most of that NPC bounty faucet.
The last economic blog figures included a miner who killed a single 1.0 belt rat as 'someone who did PvE' with equal weight to the Null sec 23/7 Anom Bot. (Not saying lots of Null people bot or anything, just a weighting comparison).

We have no idea how many play time hours went into that isk generation, nor do we have any idea what portion of people are generating the WH Commodities faucet, and how many hours they are putting into it. Especially what portion & how many hours are coming from the C6 escalation crowd.

Edit: Also low & Null incursions already pay out over 200% a highsec incursion per site. And this is why there has been someone dedicatedly running low sec incursions for the last few months ever since the fleet size for low & null sec incursions got buffed.

So, tldr version, learn real statistics and learn why your 'proof' shows nothing.


You talk a lot for someone who doesn't find it necessary to go out into the game and fine out for themselves.

I mean it's crazy, every time the topic has come up you've been in denial, yet that somehow doesn't compel you to find out for yourself. You know that means that you are interested in something other than the truth, right?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1092 - 2015-11-20 12:14:57 UTC
The replies to this topic after the necro demonstrate two of my favorite things about people.

The 1st is that when Malcanis showed my that Upton Sinclair quote, it was gospel truth. It goes "“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”.

The 2nd is that the backfire effect is real (lol at the guy saying "any given day", he probably also wants to argue about what the definition of "is" is Twisted).

Best thing about it though, is that it doesn't matter, I have faith that CCP is eventually going to take a good look at 'combat' based pve soon and iron out at least some of the more outrageous imbalances.
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#1093 - 2015-11-20 12:24:04 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
The replies to this topic after the necro demonstrate two of my favorite things about people.

The 1st is that when Malcanis showed my that Upton Sinclair quote, it was gospel truth. It goes "“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”.

The 2nd is that the backfire effect is real (lol at the guy saying "any given day", he probably also wants to argue about what the definition of "is" is Twisted).

Best thing about it though, is that it doesn't matter, I have faith that CCP is eventually going to take a good look at 'combat' based pve soon and iron out at least some of the more outrageous imbalances.


What's wrong about me saying the stats say "any given day"? It is a big assumption to say that the same 1.5% of players run incursions each day. CCP even highlight it in the dev blog in italics.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1094 - 2015-11-20 12:57:58 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:


What's wrong about me saying the stats say "any given day"? It is a big assumption to say that the same 1.5% of players run incursions each day. CCP even highlight it in the dev blog in italics.


Does it matter who the 1.5% is?

Its that this small segment of players is earning a massive sum of isk that is the issue here.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1095 - 2015-11-20 13:03:21 UTC
Avvy wrote:



Are there no incursions in sov space?

If not maybe they need a few to shake them up a bit.


Yes there are incursions in sov null, they come around in our space once every 1-3 months.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#1096 - 2015-11-20 13:03:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:


What's wrong about me saying the stats say "any given day"? It is a big assumption to say that the same 1.5% of players run incursions each day. CCP even highlight it in the dev blog in italics.


Does it matter who the 1.5% is?

Its that this small segment of players is earning a massive sum of isk that is the issue here.


And these players are affecting your Eve how??
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1097 - 2015-11-20 13:04:06 UTC  |  Edited by: La Rynx
Incursions might indeed be removed by CCP.
But only to be replaced by other PvE Stuff.

CCP and CCP Seagull are not stupid. All Numbers indicate, that far more players play PvE than PvP.

Even the smarter PvP groups know that and create additional incentives, so that PvElers who where convinced to join 0Sec gangs, also join fleet operations.

It is a wise move to add more events to amuse occasional players. Occasional players are hard workers with some money, but with no time. (of course there still be lots of whining and tears of those "hardcore PvPlers")

Since PvP is the core of EvE, no one has to whine about, that CCP will ignore those PvP player. CCP will try to serve both kinds of players.

you can take this "risk vs reward" arguments and put them somewhere, where the sun doesn't shine.
Bear

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1098 - 2015-11-20 13:07:32 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:


What's wrong about me saying the stats say "any given day"? It is a big assumption to say that the same 1.5% of players run incursions each day. CCP even highlight it in the dev blog in italics.


Does it matter who the 1.5% is?

Its that this small segment of players is earning a massive sum of isk that is the issue here.


And these players are affecting your Eve how??


Don't know.

Maybe it makes him envious?

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1099 - 2015-11-20 13:09:45 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:


And these players are affecting your Eve how??


What's the point of expending all of that effort and isk on taking and holding null sov if highsec income like incursions dwarfs the income you can make in null?
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#1100 - 2015-11-20 13:18:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Mieyli
baltec1 wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:


What's wrong about me saying the stats say "any given day"? It is a big assumption to say that the same 1.5% of players run incursions each day. CCP even highlight it in the dev blog in italics.


Does it matter who the 1.5% is?

Its that this small segment of players is earning a massive sum of isk that is the issue here.


No it doesn't matter who the 1.5% are, my point was that you can earn a large amount of isk from even one day of running incursions. If it's different people each day then the total number running incursions would be a lot higher than 1.5% but as others have said without the full stats it's impossible to say either way. My opinion is based on my own experience of running incursions and other pve( and I've been all over eve), and not so much on the recently released stats from CCP.

Edit for clarity: my stance is that incursion income should be lowered substantially.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.