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Crime & Punishment

 
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Bitter Vet - High Sec War Decs are Broken. Lets Talk :)

First post
Author
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2015-04-21 06:40:43 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
And while a corps strength may be a result of that corps choice, it doesn't change the fact that not all corps can reasonably be equal in strength and that the attackers initiative creates the match ups. Even a corp that does take combative action risks being destroyed by a superior force. All it takes is for you to catch the eye of a bigger fish.

Hang on for a second. When did war start to have to be fair? When did competition for resources start to have to be fair? Are we playing EVE, or a game of tennis?

Never said they had to be, but rather the line of this conversation followed the idea that differing levels of strength justified having other ways around an arbitrary ability to freely engage in hostilities.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#42 - 2015-04-21 06:40:51 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Accepting NPC corps but declaring evasion as an issue with wars doesn't make sense.


Evasion is not an issue. The use of dec dodging to get the benefits of being in a player corp with NPC corp safety is.

Quote:

And while a corps strength may be a result of that corps choice, it doesn't change the fact that not all corps can reasonably be equal in strength and that the attackers initiative creates the match ups.


If you want fair fights, you're playing the wrong game.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Darth Terona
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#43 - 2015-04-21 06:44:54 UTC
With regards.. If you where a military director, and you cannot deal with this problem... Can I know who you where a military director for? Sounds like an easy mark for my guys :)
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#44 - 2015-04-21 06:45:21 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
C'mon even you have to admit the sperging ISK/stats addiction is worse than it ever was. For every miner with one eye on the wallet who won't fit a tank, there's a highsec PVP/gank spanking noobs with one eye on the killboard. It used to be that a noob was left alone in lowsec (unless really being dumb or asking for it) and having a KB full of month old noobs and frigates was nothing to be proud of.
The Crimes and Punishment forum was even better, full of great tales of ganks and capers usually against people who stuck their necks out (knew what they were doing) or thought they could pull a fast one (should have known better).

Those days are gone. The kind of player you describe as being bad for the game is on both sides of the gank or highsec wardec. You know this and there's no dishonor in admitting it. I'm not trying to win forum fu contests.

We must have been playing a different game, because when I played back then, we sat 150km off low-sec gates and popped every little thing with Tachygeddons and sniper Feroxes, and rolled around the belts killing and ransoming anyone we could find. A player's age made no difference either, since everyone was pretty new.

Is it more of a numbers game today, where math and exact calculations play a bigger role in pvp? Sure. but that's evolution, not regression. No one counted their DPS and healing in vanilla WoW raids either.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2015-04-21 06:49:35 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Accepting NPC corps but declaring evasion as an issue with wars doesn't make sense.


Evasion is not an issue. The use of dec dodging to get the benefits of being in a player corp with NPC corp safety is.

Quote:

And while a corps strength may be a result of that corps choice, it doesn't change the fact that not all corps can reasonably be equal in strength and that the attackers initiative creates the match ups.


If you want fair fights, you're playing the wrong game.

Who said anything about fair fights? You said you wanted to trap people in decs, that doesn't make sense considering the massive potential strength differences. That has nothing to do with actually declaring war, or the ability to pursue or engage weaker targets that don't evade, or even seeking out other means to pursue those that do.

Also the differences between a player corp and an NPC corp are largely not worth fighting over for most corps. The "benefits" amount to very little, thus there is no reason for such determined defense in the face of overwhelming odds. You line of thought leaves no room for codifying any form of identity save for fighting capacity in a social game. I can't be the only one who finds that odd.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#46 - 2015-04-21 06:54:30 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Who said anything about fair fights? You said you wanted to trap people in decs, that doesn't make sense considering the massive potential strength differences. That has nothing to do with actually declaring war, or the ability to pursue or engage weaker targets that don't evade, or even seeking out other means to pursue those that do.

Not trap; there should always be a way out. But that way out shouldn't equate to a "okay, we're canceling your war now, bye o/".

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Also the differences between a player corp and an NPC corp are largely not worth fighting over for most corps. The "benefits" amount to very little, thus there is no reason for such determined defense in the face of overwhelming odds. You line of thought leaves no room for codifying any form of identity save for fighting capacity in a social game. I can't be the only one who finds that odd.

I agree. Perhaps it's time that they raised the NPC corp tax to something along the lines of 40-50%, which would be in line with the amount of protection afforded by them.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#47 - 2015-04-21 06:55:26 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Who said anything about fair fights?


You did, when you were jawing on about "reasonably equal in strength".

Quote:

You said you wanted to trap people in decs


Nope. I said that dec dodging should not be permitted. If you don't want to deal with wars, you belong in an NPC corp, full stop.


Quote:

Also the differences between a player corp and an NPC corp are largely not worth fighting over for most corps.


Which is why NPC corps themselves should be nerfed, and player corps commensurately buffed until being in a player corp is the optimal choice for personal income.

Player corps should mean more than just a glorified chat channel and a station hangar.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#48 - 2015-04-21 06:55:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
I have had a chat with some merc alliances in another thread and the question I posed when they were complaining about people evading war decs by closing corps and re-creating and by moving to NPC corps was whether it was sensible for them to do the scatter gun war decs.

Their view was that it was the only way to get fights (kills)... And I said that they were over-fishing, I also pointed out that there was also an issue in that if anyone fought back, then other hisec mercs would also pile in so it was a zero-sum game.

It is quite obvious that if you lock non-PvP players into this so they cannot play they will up sticks and move to another game, gee thats obvious to me, but not blinked people like Kaarous.

The most important thing to look at is whether there is any skin in the game, and the changes coming with new structures is exactly that..., which is why I looked at all the blowhards saying no don't allow them in hisec with utter amazement, the key thing is that a war dec is only meaningful if you have something to defend and something to kill other than blowing up noob ships and empty pods, or killing noobs who are too stupid to change what they are doing.

I pointed out in one thread at a person whining about a war dec corp being useless when the person employed them to cause pain after their POS was taken out, that the time to employ mercs was to defend the POS, not to have them trying to kill people who could just sit it out. Seems obvious to me, but that works both ways doesn't it.

Currently I have two war decs on by Marmite and Foresaken, both paid for by a Goon, most of my corp mates are playing GTA 5, and me I am floating around doing the odd thing like saving a freighter from the Goons or playing Shadow of Morder while sitting cloaked or docked, the joys of Eve indeed... There you go I am like a leet AFK cloaker, I just won Eve Big smile

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#49 - 2015-04-21 06:59:05 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

It is quite obvious that if you lock non-PvP players into this so they cannot play they will up sticks and move to another game, gee thats obvious to me, but not blinked people like Kaarous.


No one wants to lock them out of the game.

I merely want risk vs reward to mean a goddamned thing, instead of be skewed enormously in favor of the PvE players.


Quote:

Currently I have two war decs on by Marmite and Foresaken, both paid for by a Goon, most of my corp mates are playing GTA 5, and me I am floating around doing the odd thing like saving a freighter from the Goons or playing Shadow of Morder while sitting cloaked or docked, the joys of Eve indeed... There you go I am like a leet AFK cloaker, I just won Eve Big smile


Whose fault is it that your corp is too risk averse to actually play the game?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#50 - 2015-04-21 07:01:59 UTC
Come on now Drac. I know that, compared to the pampered, isk bloated life they have right now, that actually having to play the game will be quite the shock for the average carebear, but if they can't get over it, that's not my problem.

The game needs to change to promote conflict, instead of boring people to death. That change will mean a less safe highsec. If that's a deal breaker for some, well, don't let the door hit you.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#51 - 2015-04-21 07:02:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Dracvlad wrote:
I also pointed out that there was also an issue in that if anyone fought back, then other hisec mercs would also pile in so it was a zero-sum game.

This is exactly how it doesn't work, and why pvp-focused high-sec corporations aren't being picked on with wars. The caveat is that "fighting back" mustn't involve pulling your 1.2b-ISK, cap-stable CNR away from Angel Extravaganza in order to "camp" the mean griefer sociopath in his station while he's Frapsing your local rage.

You have fifty new members? Put them in cheap-fit Caracals and Blackbirds, get a single kill against one of the high-sec hardman entities, and watch as you never get a single war again. Although some of your members are probably going to start asking you to start some at that point.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#52 - 2015-04-21 07:02:45 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

It is quite obvious that if you lock non-PvP players into this so they cannot play they will up sticks and move to another game, gee thats obvious to me, but not blinked people like Kaarous.


No one wants to lock them out of the game.

I merely want risk vs reward to mean a goddamned thing, instead of be skewed enormously in favor of the PvE players.


Quote:

Currently I have two war decs on by Marmite and Foresaken, both paid for by a Goon, most of my corp mates are playing GTA 5, and me I am floating around doing the odd thing like saving a freighter from the Goons or playing Shadow of Morder while sitting cloaked or docked, the joys of Eve indeed... There you go I am like a leet AFK cloaker, I just won Eve Big smile


Whose fault is it that your corp is too risk averse to actually play the game?


You want them locked out of the game, you have said so in numerous threads.

As for not fighting, we did 4 roams looking for Marmite, they ran or were not around, some of our guys have had such war decs before where they pick of easy kills and run, so they are doing something else, in other words boring them out of the war dec. But tell that to the Marmite player who ran from me on the gate last night too, that was funny...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2015-04-21 07:03:12 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Who said anything about fair fights? You said you wanted to trap people in decs, that doesn't make sense considering the massive potential strength differences. That has nothing to do with actually declaring war, or the ability to pursue or engage weaker targets that don't evade, or even seeking out other means to pursue those that do.

Not trap; there should always be a way out. But that way out shouldn't equate to a "okay, we're canceling your war now, bye o/".

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Also the differences between a player corp and an NPC corp are largely not worth fighting over for most corps. The "benefits" amount to very little, thus there is no reason for such determined defense in the face of overwhelming odds. You line of thought leaves no room for codifying any form of identity save for fighting capacity in a social game. I can't be the only one who finds that odd.

I agree. Perhaps it's time that they raised the NPC corp tax to something along the lines of 40-50%, which would be in line with the amount of protection afforded by them.

Why is "we're cancelling your war now" inherently different from "we're cancelling your relative peace now"? Why is one more allowable than the other? So long as wardecs are arbitrary why can't dodging be equally so? And why is the only risk an informed declarer might face, the fact that his targets might not willingly go along with their intent, too much to be dealt with?

As for the latter, you double my EHP on every ship I get in so that I'm actually twice as "safe" in reality as compared to the warped view of protection you've created and we might have a fair deal.
Dana Goodeye
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#54 - 2015-04-21 07:04:23 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

If you want fair fights, you're playing the wrong game.

i had fair fights =P not too many, im about a year old, and i had about 10 or so. how about that? am i playing the wrong game, ha? and btw guys, not all pvpers looking for easy gank. easy gank isnt fun. hard kill, and unexpected loss is fun :P once i lost my comet to an atron, and it was soo shocking, i forgot to warp my pod off, but it was spared :D or whem i killed a svi with my incursus... or when i almost got a tail with my incursus :D or when i killed a rifter, and on the killmail i saw i should lost that fight :D and some other really fun fights =P i like the pvp, but for me real pvp is when booth sides has the chance to win. where is the fun when you ganking a week old guy in a venture? thats the best you can do? what is the fun in sitting on losec gates, and smartbombing frigs and dessies? i know, not all the ppl have the same standards than me, but i really have no idea, where is the fun in those things *.*
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#55 - 2015-04-21 07:06:20 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

You want them locked out of the game, you have said so in numerous threads.


No, I want them to not get to have their cake and eat it too.

I want conflict to be promoted by the game mechanics, not stifled.

If conflict being a thing means not playing the game to you(or to anyone), then you're what's wrong with EVE Online.


Quote:

As for not fighting, we did 4 roams looking for Marmite


Wait, what? Why would you "roam" looking for Marmite? Go to a trade hub.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#56 - 2015-04-21 07:10:03 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Why is "we're cancelling your war now" inherently different from "we're cancelling your relative peace now"? Why is one more allowable than the other?


Because loss is supposed to happen. It's pretty much the entire point of this game.


Quote:

So long as wardecs are arbitrary why can't dodging be equally so?


Because wars are intended, and if you don't want them, you already have an option, NPC corps.

What you want is the best of both worlds via an exploit. You're flailing wildly to try and justify this overpowered advantage, but the truth of the matter is that if you don't want wars, you do not belong in a player corp. Player corps are for players.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#57 - 2015-04-21 07:10:17 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

It is quite obvious that if you lock non-PvP players into this so they cannot play they will up sticks and move to another game, gee thats obvious to me, but not blinked people like Kaarous.


No one wants to lock them out of the game.

I merely want risk vs reward to mean a goddamned thing, instead of be skewed enormously in favor of the PvE players.


Quote:

Currently I have two war decs on by Marmite and Foresaken, both paid for by a Goon, most of my corp mates are playing GTA 5, and me I am floating around doing the odd thing like saving a freighter from the Goons or playing Shadow of Morder while sitting cloaked or docked, the joys of Eve indeed... There you go I am like a leet AFK cloaker, I just won Eve Big smile


Whose fault is it that your corp is too risk averse to actually play the game?




Damn I could have bet ISK on these responses.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2015-04-21 07:10:35 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Who said anything about fair fights?


You did, when you were jawing on about "reasonably equal in strength".

Quote:

You said you wanted to trap people in decs


Nope. I said that dec dodging should not be permitted. If you don't want to deal with wars, you belong in an NPC corp, full stop.


Quote:

Also the differences between a player corp and an NPC corp are largely not worth fighting over for most corps.


Which is why NPC corps themselves should be nerfed, and player corps commensurately buffed until being in a player corp is the optimal choice for personal income.

Player corps should mean more than just a glorified chat channel and a station hangar.

No, I never said fights should be fair, but rather that differences in strength should allow differences in response. Nowhere did I say decs should be restricted to entities of similar strength, I was even explicit about that. And the dodging concept, we're saying the same thing. Disabling the ability to dodge is trapping someone into a dec. If you don't believe so I'd like you to actually explain what you find to be different.

Also, why again should a player corp need to meet any standard? What's so wrong with a social construct in itself in a social game? And how does that translate to corps that never undock? Player corps should mean what those who create them intend for them to mean and be defended as they intend them to be defended.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#59 - 2015-04-21 07:11:39 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

Damn I could have bet ISK on these responses.


Are you going to bite ankles, or are you going to rant about the good old days like a hipster? Pick one.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#60 - 2015-04-21 07:13:36 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Why is "we're cancelling your war now" inherently different from "we're cancelling your relative peace now"? Why is one more allowable than the other? So long as wardecs are arbitrary why can't dodging be equally so? And why is the only risk an informed declarer might face, the fact that his targets might not willingly go along with their intent, too much to be dealt with?

As for the latter, you double my EHP on every ship I get in so that I'm actually twice as "safe" in reality as compared to the warped view of protection you've created and we might have a fair deal.

And why should other players be able to cancel my mining income by mining out all of the asteroids themselves, or cancel my trading income by undercutting my orders on the market? Why is one more allowable than the other?

At least the people declaring war have to pay something for it, while defense is completely and utterly free (let's not argue that the 2 million to reform a corporation is an actual cost here).

And ship EHP has already been buffed, many times. Especially on haulers and barges.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted