Player Features and Ideas Discussion

This wouldn't create a logistical nightmare for T1 meta production. It would actually solve the stupid supply and demand balance we have now.
In my proposal, not rats would drop "parts" equal to the amount required to build the meta module they would have dropped. These parts would be used in combination of a T1 module plus BPC gained from a data site to build the meta module desired.
As the meta modules would share "common" parts what you build would be almost entirely your choice provided you have the BPC.
Different sized Meta modules would all be built from the same parts pool and just require more (similar to current T1 production with minerals).

This would allow the value of meta modules to be controlled easily as it would simply be T1 module + parts + BPC = meta module

The supply of parts would be the same as the current supply of meta modules (harvested from looting wrecks).

Would this not give us a real way to produce meta modules, buff data sites to be damn right useful, and buff industry as a whole?
The BPC's of meta modules would be high run copies to prevent bottle necks.

You're pretty uninformed about the nature of nullsec isk making. Mining is what we call "bottom-up isk," which means that line members keep the bulk of the isk made and only a small amount is reaped by the alliance through taxation. This isk is mostly just to offset the 80b isk each it costs to raise up nullsec refineries and manufacturing outposts.

You're also wrong about recruiting industrialists and miners. There's no need to recruit individuals who only do industry or mining because PVPers have alts that can do the job just as well. A dedicated industry main offers zero advantage over a PVPer's alt. The usufruct of our space is reserved only to assist PVPers in making money so they can continue to contribute militarily.

Hell — I am a nullsec industrialist on my alts. I make fuel blocks with local materials and take part in the T2 production chain. However, unlike a dedicated industrialist, I also have a supercarrier which is currently deployed to our warfront, prosecuting and bringing to heel the enemies of the state. To my alliance, I am at once equally effective as a dedicated industrial character and significantly more useful for my military prowess.

By this thinking they should have buffed industryin hisec instead where people would actually appreciate the changes!

Nah. We love industry. We wouldn't have railroaded as much isk into Deklein as we did if we thought industry was bad. It's just that dedicated industrialists add nothing. They don't have some magical, heretofore unobtainable skill amount because anyone can train industrial skills on the alts necessary to have to play this game. They also don't have any secret wisdom to the process because manufacturing is so easy, mechanically speaking. (Thank you Crius!)

Also, what is wrong with wanting to support our alliance? The whole idea of having a player group is to band together for mutual defense and financial gain.

Recruiting dedicated industrialists is basically saying "hey, let's invite a bunch of people whose only ability is to make themselves money, who will flee at the first sign of adversity!"

Currently null has plenty of ore in belts. The lack of mineral supply is a problem they have created for themselves. So why Fozzie, are you giving them what amounts to welfare to a group that are already outrageously wealthy?

How does this mesh with your sov requirement that mining is integral to defense index? Will that also change to fit the players instead of the players needing to adapt?

If I might make a suggestion that I believe applies here in the discussion of nullsec / WH ores and mining in general:


What about the first T3 module(s)?

Specifically a T3 mining laser and a T3 Strip Miner

The whole theme behind T3 is that it can change...why not a T3 mining laser that only requires one type of T3 crystal or no crystal at all and can change to mine all ores that the user has the Ore skill to level 5?

The bonuses from said module would be not having to carry a ton of different crystals.
Maybe increased output (say 1-5%) and the obvious flexibility.

Not to mention I think everyone agrees, that there should always be at least a decent reason to train to a skill to level 5. Ore skills to 5 have never made much sense and even with the recent refining changes, still don't given the 14 day training time per Ore.

With this suggested module, it would give a really good reason to train to level 5. Flexibility, speed, and cargo space and cost savings over time after initial construction (which would of course, require additional T3 parts)

OR

Like many have suggested here (and I agree with strongly) get rid of the dense variations of the ores

and make a T3 mining laser that mines a new denser type of ore called "XYZ-ite" . This denser ore would only be found in null-sec and WH's and would require a T3 miner to get. The mineral mix that would be yielded from said ore would have all the minerals but in the proportions null-sec users use most (from CCP Fozzies numbers).
This composition could, ofc, be modified over time. But suffice of to say, you get something that drives people into nullsec, is easy to export, great to refine, and helps WHolers by making mining anoms actually worth the risk because you get in and out quicker and with a reward EQUAL to the risk since mining anoms are no longer scanned down and very risky.

The lore behind the laser would be that WHole mining drove its development and previously thought useless rocks are now worth something because we have the equipment to do it with.

Anyways - my two cents.

Flame on

This is a ground breaking idea. If the array's were scriptable then it would make mining in Nul a lot more interesting.

Even it the scripts could cause an increase in 1 type of ore and a decrease in another (paired scripts required) it would make a huge difference.

TL;DR version: "You know nothing, Jon Snow."



For those who have never lived in nullsec
ratting with a 14 day old alt account in null = 30 mil/hour, solo with no fleet bonuses in a ship costing under 100 mil total.

mining can't touch that solo, if for no other reason than time spent warping off to grab a combat ship to re clear the battleship rats.
mining could touch that in a group, until you realize that the above numbers are from a completely new character. An actually skilled nullsec ratter can easily earn 40M/hour or more (I've met a few earning 120-160 mil/hour personally)

The problem is that it is more economically feasible to kill rats, buy ore in hisec, have someone ship it out, and build my product than it is for me to mine locally to build my product.

I used to do mining. I honestly find mining, somehow, less likely to make me fall asleep than ratting. That being said, I rat for twice the isk/hour that jetcan mining makes me.

Until a nullsec ore miner without buffs can compete with a ratter for income, ore mining in null will remain strictly the activity of those unwilling or unable to rat. The most valuable ore last time I checked clocked in at 320 isk/m3, and was a lowsec ore (meaning we mined that in preference over null ores, in null) You all know what your lasers can pull and how long your cycles are. figure out your m3 per hour, multiply by 320 and you know what you'd make mining in null right now.
the best hisec ore clocked in at 290 isk/m3, so basically null made 10% more than hisec. Then remember that our rats are far more dangerous than the occasional CODE. agent (not a challenge gents) and realize the benefits of a covetor or hulk are lost by having to warp away to get a combat ship every time the rats appear, meaning a procurer/skiff/mackinaw that can beat the rats becomes the most efficient way to solo mine in null due to reduced travel time.

To those saying "what about mining as a group activity in null?" You get 10+ nullsec pilots together and this thing happens called a "roam" where we go hunting the other team's miners. Basically the moment a decent sized force gathers, pvp happens and that's why I more consider how effective a solo miner is. A gentleman from Goons (Querns) offered his own answers as to why group mining in null isn't really a "thing" earlier in this thread, and it is every bit as valid.


Regarding desires to "increase the values of nullsec ores"
See the above and ask yourself: how far would it have to increase the demand of ores to make them viable against ratting?

Probably to the point of them generating the bottlenecks in hisec industry. That would be bad for the game.


The real problem with mining is accessibility. Since everyone can mine, huge numbers of people do, vastly increasing supply. most cost in T2 production is from moongoo, not minerals. This means that so long as the large pvp fleets are using T2 ships... they're only using 10 mil worth of minerals on a 150 mil ship. That bottlenecks demand.

The only things in null where vast amounts of minerals are lost is capital ships. For mining to become less of a beggar's profession, more capital ships need to die. Along those lines - We all better hope Fozziesov kills caps.

~ The author is probably mining without a permit or joining with other malcontents plotting against The Imperium deep in lawless space. either that or a big fat carebear.

This is never gonna happen as long as afk cloaking is a thing. Any system with a hint of industry upgrade/index instantly draws afk cloakers and blops droppers. How about a covert cyno jammer?

Have a response fleet ready when people mine.