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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance Part 2

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Alexis Nightwish
#401 - 2015-04-16 19:08:55 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
John Sharp wrote:
... This new process does require you to be active to defend, but seems a bit favored to the attackers. Especially those not interested in your space or structures, just easy kills. ...
I think it will be worse than that. New era of "Throw away SOV" where:
Group A griefs group B until they get too annoyed and move out.
Group C move in and get griefed by group B.
Group C moves or some subsequent group people realise that no one wants to hold SOV so it becomes empty.

Meanwhile, Group B holds the moons the entire time.

Low Sec 2.0

How does Group B hold the moons if they were forced out by Group A?

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Alexis Nightwish
#402 - 2015-04-16 19:37:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexis Nightwish
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Cyno Reapers is truth. Entosis Velator will succeed. (ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)ง

Quote:
Given the proposed stats and fitting requirements I see the T1 version only used on cruisers and up, and the T2 only BC and up due to the amount of PG required. Such a limitation does not have "the minimum possible effect on what ships and tactics players can choose."


A hundred PG is nothing on a t1 cruiser, which probably are going to be yolo bricktanked.

Anyone know whether Entosis cycle can be interrupted prematurely via loss of lock? Or does it keep on finishing its cycle, preventing all remote repairs until it's over?

Depending, you could damp your own yolo kruiser, rep him up, regroup and repeat, since Entosis progress is saved AFAIK?

TooGoodToBeTrue.

Not on a 1400PG Maller sure, but absolutely on a 700PG Arbitrator, which is my whole point: The fitting (along with the nature of an Elink ship needing to keep itself alive w/o help) heavily restricts the ships you would use it on.

I foresee T3Cs being the only ship type that won't get you laughed out of the alliance for putting an Elink on it, which is not having "the minimum possible effect on what ships and tactics players can choose."

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#403 - 2015-04-16 19:42:18 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Cyno Reapers is truth. Entosis Velator will succeed. (ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)ง

Quote:
Given the proposed stats and fitting requirements I see the T1 version only used on cruisers and up, and the T2 only BC and up due to the amount of PG required. Such a limitation does not have "the minimum possible effect on what ships and tactics players can choose."


A hundred PG is nothing on a t1 cruiser, which probably are going to be yolo bricktanked.

Anyone know whether Entosis cycle can be interrupted prematurely via loss of lock? Or does it keep on finishing its cycle, preventing all remote repairs until it's over?

Depending, you could damp your own yolo kruiser, rep him up, regroup and repeat, since Entosis progress is saved AFAIK?

TooGoodToBeTrue.

Not on a 1400PG Maller sure, but absolutely on a 700PG Arbitrator, which is my whole point: The fitting (along with the nature of an Elink ship needing to keep itself alive w/o help) heavily restricts the ships you would use it on.

I foresee T3Cs being the only ship type that won't get you laughed out of the alliance for putting an Elink on it, which is not having "the minimum possible effect on what ships and tactics players can choose."

"having the minimum possible impact" and "being the optimal choice" are not the same thing. Of course people will throw these things on the tankiest ships they can scrounge, but that doesnt mean they cant throw it on something small and cheap too if they want.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#404 - 2015-04-17 00:41:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
How does Group B hold the moons if they were forced out by Group A?
Group A don't want the SOV and group B doesn't either at that point. So they stage from NPC stations.
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Then what, exactly, is to stop Groups A and C going "this sucks, lets get-em" and blowing up all of Group B's Mining Arrays?
Also if Group B doesn't actually hold any assets (stations, ect) in the area then how are they so effectively harassing with power projection nerfed the way it is? Are they simply that large of a group and if so why don't they simply hold Sov to better defend their assets?
Deep Null? Rorquals + POSes + ships + Clone Vat Bays
POSes are going away eventually with the new structures and their replacements will be subject to Entosis mechanics. If they have structures in the area then they're holding assets and those can be attacked and removed by the defenders to end the threat.
There will still be an encampment structure so you can set up in enemy territory.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#405 - 2015-04-17 00:49:34 UTC
So, using the same mechanics, group B is capable of holding moons and living with harassment, except for stations hubs and TCUs? Seems like either the priorities or the capabilities aren't matching here.
Cade Windstalker
#406 - 2015-04-17 01:42:11 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
How does Group B hold the moons if they were forced out by Group A?
Group A don't want the SOV and group B doesn't either at that point. So they stage from NPC stations.

..snip...

There will still be an encampment structure so you can set up in enemy territory.


NPC stations only work to an extent. For example no Super Cap safety and limited power projection range due to the jump changes.

Any sort of player-made structure can be destroyed and if they're defending their staging structures then they're not harassing your Sov (or at least not for very long). Plus all of the non-Sov sized structures don't have the Nodes minigame, making them significantly easier to knock over.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#407 - 2015-04-17 02:43:42 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
How does Group B hold the moons if they were forced out by Group A?
Group A don't want the SOV and group B doesn't either at that point. So they stage from NPC stations.
..snip...
There will still be an encampment structure so you can set up in enemy territory.
NPC stations only work to an extent. For example no Super Cap safety and limited power projection range due to the jump changes....
Having a Low Sec POS with your Supers and a station you can access will be infinitely better than a quick flipped SOV station that is red, locked you out of most of your stuff and has supers logged off in a POS where your enemy can now stage in the same system.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Cade Windstalker
#408 - 2015-04-17 02:55:25 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Having a Low Sec POS with your Supers and a station you can access will be infinitely better than a quick flipped SOV station that is red, locked you out of most of your stuff and has supers logged off in a POS where your enemy can now stage in the same system.


Remember, all structures larger than a POCO are eventually getting removed or swapped to the Entosis system. POSes being one of the ones slated for outright removal and replacement with the new stuff. Also comparatively a POS isn't particularly more defensible than an Entosis Sov structure IMO. There's no restrictions on when you trigger the first timer, then you have two more timers to hit but if the enemy just blobs Caps and Supers they can DPS down the POS faster than a 30-40 minute Entosis timer.
Bowbndr
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#409 - 2015-04-17 04:59:36 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Bowbndr wrote:
so what your doing is making it so that your large Goon and CFC friends can just cover all of null sec because they keep people online and running this link, While smaller groups will be pushed out of null completely because they don't have the manpower to constantly defend against these links.

I fail to see how this kind of mechanic helps the little guys at all.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

if yure going to claim goons are trying to take all of null in any way, you might want to check news sites more often. I doubt dropping two regions from CFC (or Imperium as it is now) is the next step in their nullsec-domination plan. And with NC. dropping renters this is a prime time for the smaller dudes to swarm in and grab what they can hold.

And have you considered how many people will target the northern space, simply because they hate goons? I can see plenty of un-used space going either unclaimed or being flip-flopped depending on who shows up.


Dropping a few regions and "announcing" the end of the CFC mean nothing as long as CCP allowes them to keep everyone else from holding sov. the only thing Fozzy's new goonsov will do is make it so they can extort others without having to hold the sov themselves.
Bowbndr
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#410 - 2015-04-17 05:02:09 UTC
Bowbndr wrote:
so what your doing is making it so that your large Goon and CFC friends can just cover all of null sec because they keep people online and running this link, While smaller groups will be pushed out of null completely because they don't have the manpower to constantly defend against these links.

I fail to see how this kind of mechanic helps the little guys at all.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.



I dident name the changes Fozzy sov I would look to whoever laid his name under the goon bootheal
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#411 - 2015-04-17 05:29:54 UTC
Bowbndr wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Bowbndr wrote:
so what your doing is making it so that your large Goon and CFC friends can just cover all of null sec because they keep people online and running this link, While smaller groups will be pushed out of null completely because they don't have the manpower to constantly defend against these links.

I fail to see how this kind of mechanic helps the little guys at all.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

if yure going to claim goons are trying to take all of null in any way, you might want to check news sites more often. I doubt dropping two regions from CFC (or Imperium as it is now) is the next step in their nullsec-domination plan. And with NC. dropping renters this is a prime time for the smaller dudes to swarm in and grab what they can hold.

And have you considered how many people will target the northern space, simply because they hate goons? I can see plenty of un-used space going either unclaimed or being flip-flopped depending on who shows up.


Dropping a few regions and "announcing" the end of the CFC mean nothing as long as CCP allowes them to keep everyone else from holding sov. the only thing Fozzy's new goonsov will do is make it so they can extort others without having to hold the sov themselves.

So no one holds the sov. Everyone wins

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#412 - 2015-04-17 05:35:48 UTC
Bowbndr wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Bowbndr wrote:
so what your doing is making it so that your large Goon and CFC friends can just cover all of null sec because they keep people online and running this link, While smaller groups will be pushed out of null completely because they don't have the manpower to constantly defend against these links.

I fail to see how this kind of mechanic helps the little guys at all.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

if yure going to claim goons are trying to take all of null in any way, you might want to check news sites more often. I doubt dropping two regions from CFC (or Imperium as it is now) is the next step in their nullsec-domination plan. And with NC. dropping renters this is a prime time for the smaller dudes to swarm in and grab what they can hold.

And have you considered how many people will target the northern space, simply because they hate goons? I can see plenty of un-used space going either unclaimed or being flip-flopped depending on who shows up.


Dropping a few regions and "announcing" the end of the CFC mean nothing as long as CCP allowes them to keep everyone else from holding sov. the only thing Fozzy's new goonsov will do is make it so they can extort others without having to hold the sov themselves.

Dropping sov means nobody gets sov. Neat.

If thats the case, I guess taking all the sov means everyone gets sov?
Cade Windstalker
#413 - 2015-04-17 05:38:32 UTC
Bowbndr wrote:
Dropping a few regions and "announcing" the end of the CFC mean nothing as long as CCP allowes them to keep everyone else from holding sov. the only thing Fozzy's new goonsov will do is make it so they can extort others without having to hold the sov themselves.


It's an interesting theory, but they could also, in theory, do this now. They've got a big enough cap fleet, deep enough pockets, and more than enough members to run around rolling everyone's sov in a nice circle. The thing is that it's impractical in the long run and everyone knows it. Whether or not the CFC successfully rolls around trolling Sov is going to depend heavily on the final mechanics and how everyone reacts to them. My bet is this is another one of those "great in theory, doesn't quite work in practice" things.
Bowbndr
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#414 - 2015-04-17 20:02:11 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Bowbndr wrote:
Dropping a few regions and "announcing" the end of the CFC mean nothing as long as CCP allowes them to keep everyone else from holding sov. the only thing Fozzy's new goonsov will do is make it so they can extort others without having to hold the sov themselves.


It's an interesting theory, but they could also, in theory, do this now. They've got a big enough cap fleet, deep enough pockets, and more than enough members to run around rolling everyone's sov in a nice circle. The thing is that it's impractical in the long run and everyone knows it. Whether or not the CFC successfully rolls around trolling Sov is going to depend heavily on the final mechanics and how everyone reacts to them. My bet is this is another one of those "great in theory, doesn't quite work in practice" things.



The problem for doing it now is that they would have to pay sov bill for any systems they take. Under the new system they can kill systems for other groups in the game with next to no risk on their part and they don't have to roll with a structure bashing fleet. just send in fleets with their new toy from CCP Fozzy and they can kill all reason to do anything in Null.

if you think about it is actualy a vary smart move for them to "give up" their regions. They get to loose their sov bill and yet I would be willing to bet that they keep collecting "Rent" from the area.
Bowbndr
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#415 - 2015-04-17 23:46:20 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Bowbndr wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Bowbndr wrote:
so what your doing is making it so that your large Goon and CFC friends can just cover all of null sec because they keep people online and running this link, While smaller groups will be pushed out of null completely because they don't have the manpower to constantly defend against these links.

I fail to see how this kind of mechanic helps the little guys at all.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

if yure going to claim goons are trying to take all of null in any way, you might want to check news sites more often. I doubt dropping two regions from CFC (or Imperium as it is now) is the next step in their nullsec-domination plan. And with NC. dropping renters this is a prime time for the smaller dudes to swarm in and grab what they can hold.

And have you considered how many people will target the northern space, simply because they hate goons? I can see plenty of un-used space going either unclaimed or being flip-flopped depending on who shows up.


Dropping a few regions and "announcing" the end of the CFC mean nothing as long as CCP allowes them to keep everyone else from holding sov. the only thing Fozzy's new goonsov will do is make it so they can extort others without having to hold the sov themselves.

So no one holds the sov. Everyone wins



I don't think I would say everyone wins. I think that the large blocks win because they don't have to pay sov bills anymore. all these little corps that try to make it in Null have to pay not only the sov bill, but whatever extortion the big blocks want to not kill their sov. sounds more like the only ones who win are the big power blocks.

Wonder why they all seam to be dropping their sov???
Bowbndr
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#416 - 2015-04-17 23:49:05 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Bowbndr wrote:
Dropping a few regions and "announcing" the end of the CFC mean nothing as long as CCP allowes them to keep everyone else from holding sov. the only thing Fozzy's new goonsov will do is make it so they can extort others without having to hold the sov themselves.


It's an interesting theory, but they could also, in theory, do this now. They've got a big enough cap fleet, deep enough pockets, and more than enough members to run around rolling everyone's sov in a nice circle. The thing is that it's impractical in the long run and everyone knows it. Whether or not the CFC successfully rolls around trolling Sov is going to depend heavily on the final mechanics and how everyone reacts to them. My bet is this is another one of those "great in theory, doesn't quite work in practice" things.



My personal feeling is that Fozzy's Goonsov is going to be the biggest blow to eve EVER. I cant remember anything in the 5 year that I have been playing that has the potential to do so much damage to the eve community.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#417 - 2015-04-17 23:50:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Interesting theory. Not really.

I think someone is hurt about their Dysprosium moons.

Rowells wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Cyno Reapers is truth. Entosis Velator will succeed. (ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)ง

Quote:
Given the proposed stats and fitting requirements I see the T1 version only used on cruisers and up, and the T2 only BC and up due to the amount of PG required. Such a limitation does not have "the minimum possible effect on what ships and tactics players can choose."


A hundred PG is nothing on a t1 cruiser, which probably are going to be yolo bricktanked.

Anyone know whether Entosis cycle can be interrupted prematurely via loss of lock? Or does it keep on finishing its cycle, preventing all remote repairs until it's over?

Depending, you could damp your own yolo kruiser, rep him up, regroup and repeat, since Entosis progress is saved AFAIK?

TooGoodToBeTrue.

Not on a 1400PG Maller sure, but absolutely on a 700PG Arbitrator, which is my whole point: The fitting (along with the nature of an Elink ship needing to keep itself alive w/o help) heavily restricts the ships you would use it on.

I foresee T3Cs being the only ship type that won't get you laughed out of the alliance for putting an Elink on it, which is not having "the minimum possible effect on what ships and tactics players can choose."

"having the minimum possible impact" and "being the optimal choice" are not the same thing. Of course people will throw these things on the tankiest ships they can scrounge, but that doesnt mean they cant throw it on something small and cheap too if they want.


I wonder how proficient Marauders are going to be here in the grand scheme of things. Smile

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Cade Windstalker
#418 - 2015-04-18 02:01:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Bowbndr wrote:
The problem for doing it now is that they would have to pay sov bill for any systems they take. Under the new system they can kill systems for other groups in the game with next to no risk on their part and they don't have to roll with a structure bashing fleet. just send in fleets with their new toy from CCP Fozzy and they can kill all reason to do anything in Null.

if you think about it is actualy a vary smart move for them to "give up" their regions. They get to loose their sov bill and yet I would be willing to bet that they keep collecting "Rent" from the area.


This... isn't really correct. If goons take the area then they have to pay the sov bill. If someone else takes it then they have to pay the sov bill. If you want to seriously threaten space then you have to take it. It doesn't matter if it's Goons holding the final flag or a shell corp.

Besides, having caps on the field is still a big strategic asset, so you at least need enough to deal with a Carrier or you're handing the defender a big advantage.

Really I'm not seeing where this makes Sov any easier to hold or deny to the enemy. You still need assets on the field and skin in the game, and that means you can lose assets and over extend. Certainly at the very least you can't be everywhere all the time and if you **** off enough people they start hitting those assets and other stuff while you're busy dealing with someone else.

Besides, if the large blocks try to "extort" people for territory then it has to be financially worth it to the renters, same as now, which means there's a finite limit on how much you can extort before you simply drive people out of the area entirely.

Like I said, great theory but I don't see it happening in practice. There are too many "what if's" and too many "only if's" in this to start making grand proclamations of doom and gloom.

Bowbndr wrote:
My personal feeling is that Fozzy's Goonsov is going to be the biggest blow to eve EVER. I cant remember anything in the 5 year that I have been playing that has the potential to do so much damage to the eve community.


And if I had $5 for every time I've seen someone declare Eve dead as a result of some change or other, or declare that CCP is *clearly* favoring one side or another in Null I'd be able to pay off my college debt and PLEX my account until the real year 23251.

So far Eve is still here and someone doing everything is complaining that CCP is out to ruin their particular style of play.
Naidrag
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#419 - 2015-04-18 02:19:54 UTC
Just an off the wall idea.

Maybe add a little functionality to the entasis link until the new structures come out you can use it to hack an offline tower. Might add a new carrier in high sec to hack the offline tower to take control of it.


It's gust a crazy idea.
Bowbndr
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#420 - 2015-04-18 05:35:27 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Bowbndr wrote:
The problem for doing it now is that they would have to pay sov bill for any systems they take. Under the new system they can kill systems for other groups in the game with next to no risk on their part and they don't have to roll with a structure bashing fleet. just send in fleets with their new toy from CCP Fozzy and they can kill all reason to do anything in Null.

if you think about it is actualy a vary smart move for them to "give up" their regions. They get to loose their sov bill and yet I would be willing to bet that they keep collecting "Rent" from the area.


This... isn't really correct. If goons take the area then they have to pay the sov bill. If someone else takes it then they have to pay the sov bill. If you want to seriously threaten space then you have to take it. It doesn't matter if it's Goons holding the final flag or a shell corp.

Besides, having caps on the field is still a big strategic asset, so you at least need enough to deal with a Carrier or you're handing the defender a big advantage.

Really I'm not seeing where this makes Sov any easier to hold or deny to the enemy. You still need assets on the field and skin in the game, and that means you can lose assets and over extend. Certainly at the very least you can't be everywhere all the time and if you **** off enough people they start hitting those assets and other stuff while you're busy dealing with someone else.

Besides, if the large blocks try to "extort" people for territory then it has to be financially worth it to the renters, same as now, which means there's a finite limit on how much you can extort before you simply drive people out of the area entirely.

Like I said, great theory but I don't see it happening in practice. There are too many "what if's" and too many "only if's" in this to start making grand proclamations of doom and gloom.

Bowbndr wrote:
My personal feeling is that Fozzy's Goonsov is going to be the biggest blow to eve EVER. I cant remember anything in the 5 year that I have been playing that has the potential to do so much damage to the eve community.


And if I had $5 for every time I've seen someone declare Eve dead as a result of some change or other, or declare that CCP is *clearly* favoring one side or another in Null I'd be able to pay off my college debt and PLEX my account until the real year 23251.

So far Eve is still here and someone doing everything is complaining that CCP is out to ruin their particular style of play.



Im not saying eve is going to die, far from it. WOW is about the most brain dead game I know and it makes a killing, but making eve in to a space based WOW is going to do nothing to "help" it either, other than dumb down the player base.

as far as the sov goes the biggest looser in that race IS going to be CCP when people understand that Fozzy sov removes all incentive to fight for a system. when CCP Clearly stacks the deck in the favor of the attacker then there will be no point in any Indy based corps to even attempt to hold sov. unless they have a pvp wing to defend their system they will just be throwing away isk to the guys that have no intention to hold the sov, just "create content" IE force their game style on those surround them.