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[New structures] Item safety mechanics on structure destruction

First post First post
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#301 - 2015-05-28 03:57:26 UTC
Not to mention that WH space has at least some ability to keep people out. It's not like a vastly superior force can appear overnight on your doorstep.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

SFM Hobb3s
Caldari State
#302 - 2015-05-28 13:40:06 UTC
Also I'm sure the smart wormholers frequently move their extra loot and assets to where? Safe indestructible stations/market hubs. It's not like absolutely everything you ever owned is stockpiled in your wormhole tower. And it wouldn't surprise me if the majority of wormholers have at least small caches of ships in many npc stations around Eve. I know I would (and do, although I live in null)
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#303 - 2015-05-28 20:24:03 UTC
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
Also I'm sure the smart wormholers frequently move their extra loot and assets to where? Safe indestructible stations/market hubs. It's not like absolutely everything you ever owned is stockpiled in your wormhole tower. And it wouldn't surprise me if the majority of wormholers have at least small caches of ships in many npc stations around Eve. I know I would (and do, although I live in null)


The problem with this strategy is that you cache your stuff in, say, Amarr, and your next week's worth of Empire connections are to Molden Heath, maybe Placid or Devoid. Anything that has any tactical value is in the WH, because you have no guaranteed access to any assets in K-space. It's easier and faster to just get what you need when you can. We had a running "shopping list" of requests. When someone got a good Empire connection they'd pop out, find the nearest non-awful market, and satisfy as many of the requests as possible.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Johny Tyler
Solar Forged
#304 - 2015-06-04 10:44:32 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Such gameplay is necessary if we wish players to use those new structures and not stash all of their items in NPC stations.

I think it is a big problem to start designing mechanics around what you "wish" players to do. Make good solid game mechanics and leave it up to the player what they "wish" to do with it.

IMO epic loss of a structure could/should be best balanced by making the structure useful enough to be worth the risk.

A possibility to preserve a few key assets would be to install an emergency compartment in a structure of a specific size. Items in the compartment at the time of destruction are ejected in a capsule similar to one of your options, not scanable or destructible until the player has retrieved it. Such a compartment could come standard on a structure, but I would recommend making it another module option that requires fitting space and a choice to use it over something else.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#305 - 2015-06-05 00:04:45 UTC

OK, so these Citadels have no fuel use. So they never go offline, never get weakened by inactivity. So they are still as theretically deadly when not inhabited as when inhabited. Then the junk inside them get squirelled away to sekrit space cans by space hobbits.

Well, OK, not a question. So here's the real one:

When i unanchor the Citadel, what happens to the junk inside it?

Right now, I have 82 toons in corp. Divide by 2 for alts, I have about 40 meatbods. Some of these meatbods go AFK for long periods. At the moment what I do is hump all their stuff out of their hangars, then take their ships out of the SMA, and either liquidate or contract it back to them.

This is predicated on the ability of a CEO like me, not only dashing and handsome, but able to peek into every nook and cranny of the POS and extract nuggets of caca from it before jacking it down and unanchoring it. the space hobbit milieux how does it work if my members have their own private space? Do you get the same problems you get with PHA's in that you can't unanchor them because of reasons? Do you get to force the issue and make Space Hobbits come along and steal your member's stuff and hide it in invisible leprecans around system, which will then expire and destroy all their stuff because your members are AFK?

Or soes the act of unanchoring the Citadel just trash everything?

I haven't heard anything either way on this issue. It would be interesting to hear, because I suspect that the way t deal with items being destroyed or space hobbitted is to just move out of the Citadel, leave it sitting there abandoned (just like now! except with no SMA killmail risk!) and take a bet that ecause it's 40 AU's off dscan no one will ever find it, and my members can come back from AFK and eventually get their stuff out.

I dunno. I mean, i hate moving out quitter's gear, but by the same token, this is a bit odd.
Rat Sotken
HC - Redemption
#306 - 2015-06-26 04:41:05 UTC
Okay, so I just found this thread and I'm going to contribute my two cents.

First option, not going to work. Noone in their right mind will re-enter a hostile WH or system to retrieve all of their stuff.

Second option, not going to work, some of those containers would have to be massive and require hundreds of trips.

Third option, not going to work, large entities will use it as an easy way of moving cargo. I can easily see it being used as a way to setup an immediate staging base. That much value should not be able to be moved without considerable cost.

As covering the obvious, citadels will be found in many areas, the three main ones are WH, Null, and HS. In that order of safety.

WH dwellers have a devil may care attitude and combined with the limiting feature of the WH's themselves, are the truest EVE players imo, standing by the creed "I am going to lose everything tomorrow."

Null, is where the most destruction occurs. Lack of CONCORD retribution and freedom to kill who they want. That destruction first requires a lot of assets to be built up to be used, before the actual battle. Who stand by the creed, "Pew, pew, pew"

HS, is where the carebears live. And where only guerilla tactics survive before the hammer of CONCORD arrives. "I don't care what you do, but leave me alone"

Easiest solution is I forsee is
in WH, leave them as it is, no recovery, no safety. Only currently available defensive systems.
Null, you'll most probably need to add some modicum of safety, a warning and time. I was thinking effectively choosing a base of operations and where every user has to pay excessively high to keep that base, effectively as a NPC station. But you'll always end up with the scenario where the offense moves faster than the defense can muster or organise and where you'd end up as an island. In Eve, that would require entosis sovereignty to slow down by orders of magnitude.

Personally, I am on the side of everything is destructible. That's the only way you're going to get gang guerilla warfare. Because then there will be no more big targets. It'll be too costly to store everything in one place. And therefore people will have caches everywhere. I'm also going to suggest pockets of dynamic high sec, maybe 10% of the systems in any single region. Then you'd only need Medium Citadels.

But you're hitting against people's laziness. The bigger the group, the safer they want to be. There's an inherent safety in numbers.

Yes, its a mindset shift. And it'll be greater for some than others. There will be attrition, no matter how you cut it. You decide what kind of gameplay you want and the players that fit that mould will stay/arrive. Use Quant, for those who subscribe with money what do they spend their time doing and use that as your guide. Follow the money.

If you make null destructible, they'll just base out of HS.
If you want to tweak, upon release of fozzie sov, move everything in null to systems within 5 jumps of Jita, and let null start anew.

In politics, you know what you want, so you pick the extreme version of it, then you'll seem reasonable when they bargain you down to your original intent and vision.

TL;DR Make everything destructible with the same current loot mechanics for ships.

Let the insecurities reveal themselves!
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#307 - 2015-06-26 06:43:05 UTC
Enya Sparhawk wrote:
You should know better than anyone...

In War, there is no neutral ground... anywhere.

Why should 0.0 be any different?

I know for a fact that there is a lot of loot to be had from players in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, United States and the Isle of Great Britain.

I plan of doing my share of the reaping...

This won't work. What that does is pushing people and their assets to empire.

SFM Hobb3s wrote:
The smack-down simple answer is this: If station destruction results in a players loss of stored assets, there will be LESS content in eve.

1. Player loses all his PVP ships/supplies=less content
2. Player learns not to store PVP ships/supplies in a destructible station=less content

If you think most of null is empty now...just wait.
Green Visstick High
#308 - 2015-06-26 09:13:54 UTC  |  Edited by: LujTic
I wouldn't make any radical changes that creates a risk a large number of people would unsub or leave nullsec. I would take it slow and step by step. First step would be to make them conquerable with the new mechanic. That's already a major change that risks driving people out of nullsec. Then you can add an option to destroy structures, moving the items stored inside. Activating the self-destruct should create timers so people can try to retake their structures and disable the self-destruct.
Destroying peoples assets or having the winner take all is not going to make this game any better.
Styphon the Black
Forced Euthanasia
#309 - 2015-06-26 18:36:40 UTC
• Third option could be to have the items inside the structure moved to another structure belonging to the same owners.

I wouldn't have it move to another stucture by the same owner but have the SoE recover the lost items and ship them to a fiendly NPC station. Someone might not have another structure that they own.
#310 - 2015-06-29 02:34:32 UTC
This doesn't encourage anyone to live anywhere but Highsec. lets say I live in some null system, my wife has a baby, I get hit by a bus, or whatever. I come back a week later to find 2 freighter loads of stuff in one container.
How do you honestly expect someone to move their stuff if they AFK for a few days and log back in to a space container?

... What next ??

Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#311 - 2015-06-30 16:29:52 UTC
I would like to reiterate on the planetary vault idea, which I think is a great way of shifting the current "safety" that outposts provide to a structure that is just as safe but with far less access ability.

Barren or ice planets can have a "space elivator" built on them, granting infinite cold storage options for players. Once per hour or day perhaps, a single "retrieval request" can be made for any and all belongings, you drag and drop everything you want to retrieve out of storage and it is sent up for you in the elivator. You can also do a single "deposit request" every hour or day. Drag and drop into a queue container with potentially infinite space and it will be immediately and safely stored for you.

With this in place, the bulk of expensive valuables would be stored there, with a small assortment of pvp and pve equipment stored in L or XL structures for quick fitting and flying options.

No terrible loot can mechanic, teleporting capitals, interbus shipping costs, itemized insurance, journal can bull$&@# or hellcamping trillions in assets until the 30 day timers expire "just for lulz or profit".

No unlimited access to all your stuff free of loss at any time like right now, your ease of use items will still be destroyable and loot able by attackers, but you will have potentially trillions safe from harm, out of sight out of mind. No retreating to npc stations. Only your local HOTH.

A new structure to be built monitored maintained and protected. If it is destroyed and a new one is built you are in the same boat as you are now with the new outpost owners locking you out. All you have to do to let your alliance retrieve their things is blow your enemies space elevator and build your own. Requiring you to take the system back anyways. Just like now. And since its in system, if you have to go on vacation for extended time, you don't have to ship back to high sec, only to the planet that's a single safe, all blues in local warp away.
Rat Sotken
HC - Redemption
#312 - 2015-06-30 22:21:35 UTC
This thread has been bugging me. Its a critical issue. And it'll affect how everyone plays the game.

So here are more ideas.
Seperate null.
-0.5 to -1.0, caters for blops and alliances. (BLOP Null)
0.0 to -0.5 caters for small gang pvp. No alliance support and corp size limitations. Maybe even fleet size limitations. (Small Null)

Null is dead because very few people want to be disturbed by a cyno and a BS fleet, when they aren't expecting one.
When people know the size of fleet to expect, there's better odds of getting an even fight.
The main consideration here is, you want Blop Null to still go to Small Null, just without the fleet support.
You'll still people docking up when they meet another fleet too large for them to take on, but at least you would be more likely to find another small gang fleet.

You could make BLOP space like Shattered WH's, enourmous systems but in null, and there would be 20 systems. And with one central and 3 sub-central systems connecting all of them in the center. You could implement a reverse reinforce, where the longer your Citadel is up, you can add more shield, armor, etc. Exponential curve time delay between each stage, maybe can upgrade 3 times. Which would force any attacker to go through additional reinforce timers. It'd even help the server load since you've aggregated all of the major null alliances. Or even thats the only place you can build XL Citadels which replace Outposts in terms of all functionality and are non-destructible.

Another idea is based on the number of people who use a Citadel, determines its upkeep costs. So Customs tax or Maintenance, w/e. This would especially apply to Small Null where you could group people to two bands. So say under 20 Citadel users, is the most value. Then you'd go 21-50 users, which would cost like 60% more. Essentially the less people that use a single Citadel the cheaper it is to run.

I've sort of come around to every character having access to what is effectively a single cloaked station container. If they keep their stuff in it, then its safe for pickup similar to what happens in Planetary. However there has to also be support where people can contract up the pickup, so put up the contract for those daring enough to pick them up in their Cov Ops ships. When a station blows up, the owners will get a master pass, which they can make a single copy at any one time, which will allow people to open their station container.
Wooly Akachi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#313 - 2015-07-01 05:07:07 UTC
Ok here's my version - most likely is bad or has a big hole somewhere in it.

The Outpost have been damaged or attacked by drifters doing "Stuff".
They are slowly deactivating - shutting down.

The new structures that are being rushed into service are not as good as what they are replacing (Destructable)
The old structures remain in space but no services are able to be run on them.

You can still dock in them and store stuff (Limited space 20mil m3? dread plus a bit).
when changing ship and then undocking you have no sheild or cap.
anyone can dock in it as security services are disabled.
No refitting or other station services

This will provide a safe storage for people but only a small amount per person and will make current station systems a potential
conflict driver.

Nortion Adoulin
Not Listed
#314 - 2015-07-07 18:47:45 UTC
Everything should be Destructible

Start with the problem the station itself will keep this short and to the point

Limit the space available inside the station for hangers and storage. The larger the station the more space available.

Small station should be able to dock upto cruier size and larger sized stations battleships and the XL upto capitals but very limited numbers (4 max). EXCEPTION you can always dock a FREAGHTER.

Limited space = less assets = less loss of assets.

Limit hanger space for assembled ships. You want more space pay for it!

The station owner can buy insurance to become a BONDED secure station. An NPC corp. (most likely one of the existing large NPC corps) offers secure asset protection for all hanger items excluding Assembled ships. Alternately there should be an office in the station to allow charters for a one off fee to buy bonded status in the station the cost dependant on their standings and max payout. E.g. pay 1 mil less 2% because you well known and friendly to us for 200mil cover. Standings of -5 and your cover is refused or if you drop to -5 any cover is revoked.

The owing corp. alliance has to pay a fee for this so that can chose not to but that won’t encourage neutrals to visit. Also any chanter whose property falls under bonded status keeps that status until they opt to use it; no matter how many times the station changes hands. Items held can be left indefinitely or until the owner revisits the station.
When a station is forced into reinforced the contents become secured buy the Bond Corp. If it remains in the holder’s possession afterwards nothing changes. If lost there are several options for the attacker.

1 Destroy the station = Major loss of standing for the attacking corp. alliance and pilots with the bond holder corp. (becomes -10) Bond holder has to replace or pay for replacement of all assets lost excluding assembles ships. Lots of wreckage and containers drifting about for weeks/months afterwards.

2 Loot the station = Major loss of standing with the bond holder corp. (becomes -10) Bond holder has to replace or pay for replacement of all assets lost not belonging to the owning faction or corp. Attacker steals 50-70% of the contents of the station also all items currently up for sale in the station. Note must be able to remove the loot from the station buy their own corp. /faction ships. They cannot just move it to their own hanger space and contract it to neutral haulers also they must abandon the station within 2 hours after which time it becomes a free port again except they are refused docking access until the station has changed hands once more.

3 If captured the new owners can occupy and honour the bonded status. The owners of the bonded items can have then shipped to a neutral station of there choice or to a Hi sec station. Shipping takes 2-7 days. The new owner will have to buy bonded status if they wish they do not inherit the previous owner’s status.

4 Strip the station of assets which removes upgrades and services and receive large amounts of salvage i.e. electronic components scrap, computers food medical items ( basically anything not nailed down to hard) Every day a station being stripped produces X million isk of salvage .But leaving personnel items untouched and the station largely intact. Again these items must be shipped out by their own ships not contracted to neutrals. Useful if you don’t think you can hold a station for long. Striping a station gives a major negative to Sovereignty Industry hub and station control and can actively make it go negative.
Punx Evangeline
MHE Industries
#315 - 2015-07-12 01:21:19 UTC
I like the third option, have all your stuff be able to move to another structure like the one that is demolished. If you don't have a structure, then you have to build one to get it back.

I for one wouldn't move my stuff into player owned structures on a mass scale if they can be destroyed and lost. If I have to go pick it up somewhere in a freighter, I'm not likely to put very much in it.

If you want people to use it, keep their stuff as safe as their stuff is in NPC stations.
Nortion Adoulin
Not Listed
#316 - 2015-07-12 18:19:42 UTC
Punx Evangeline wrote:
I like the third option, have all your stuff be able to move to another structure like the one that is demolished. If you don't have a structure, then you have to build one to get it back.

I for one wouldn't move my stuff into player owned structures on a mass scale if they can be destroyed and lost. If I have to go pick it up somewhere in a freighter, I'm not likely to put very much in it.

If you want people to use it, keep their stuff as safe as their stuff is in NPC stations.


This gives the owners of the assets the option to protect them but does not guarantee that any one attacking a station will let them get there stuff back.

Also the attackers who take a station have options on how they are going to get benefit of taking the station after the fight.
BUT having real consequences for destroying the station or looting the valuables inside.

With all the corp. members and the corp. getting there standing trashed then there never going to get bonded status on their own stations. Negative standings could also be extended to Hi sec say having docking rights at NPC Corporation stations refused along with trading rights for all items for sale at their stations it would act as a restraining mechanism on the whole scale destruction in Null. These NPC Corporation are not like CONCORD whose authority stops Hi-sec. They have indirect influence beyond and financial interests out there. They’re going to punish anyone who cost them ISK any way they can.

More importantly anyone who really wants to live out in null totally independent of Hi sec and not relying on them to protect their assets can do so if they want to. They can destroy as much as they want to it just destroys there standings with the Hi sec factions and corporations. They just have to remember that like the mirror on NULL they cannot enter without being attacked by anyone who wants to or that there are few if any stations they can dock in to buy and sell stuff. They turn Hi sec into their care bear Null-sec.
O2 jayjay
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#317 - 2015-07-18 06:30:13 UTC
Item safety sound like world of war craft. I'm playing eve. High risk high reward. All items should drop just like everything else.
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#318 - 2015-07-26 03:52:05 UTC
O2 jayjay wrote:
Item safety sound like world of war craft. I'm playing eve. High risk high reward. All items should drop just like everything else.

So where's the high reward?
Josef Kennet
Deep Space Conquerors
Goonswarm Federation
#319 - 2015-07-26 11:08:39 UTC
I think the full destriction of station is bad idea at all.
Because if you make stations destructible than it is logical to make ALL of them destructible including LS\HS\NPC Stations.
And when you think what will happen if lets say Jita - m4 will be destroyed you will understand why this mechanic is so bad with any of assets evacuation mechanics.

So, my idea is:
1) Stations have reinforcement timers (armor\shield). Damage is done by regular firepower or if you wish by entosis links (i prefer regular firepower because destroying station by entosis is kinda lol)
2) Station services( + market + contracts + direct trade + whatever station activity you like) are station modules (fitted to stations).
3) When station recieve damage on some point (like 75% shiled, 25% shield etc) one random service(which is fitted to station) is destroyed (and station changes its model to some damaged variant). In addition it may be followed with some loot (minerals for example).
4) During reinforcement (plus some time for a fight like ~2h) station owner cannot fit any new station services.
5) When station gets to 0% all services should be destroyed and some of fitting will be dropped as loot, station enters freeport mode.
6) In freeport mode only dock\undock and moving your staff in hangars is available.
7) To gain control over station you need to bring some materials to station (maybe docking support service or just random basic things like capital plates\construction blocks\whatever so you do not know in advance what to bring with yourself) and then use entosis link. After that you probably want to repair station (if it on 0% you cant fit any services, if it for example on 50% structure you can fit only one - theopposite to their destruction: 100% station - all fitting slots for services are available, 0% - none).
8) During repair station model returns to is normal undamaged state.

The results are:
1) Any items are always safe on station (because its not destroyed fully)
2) A lot of visual candys (because its probably the only thing that is cool in station destructions)
3) Unexpected gameplay because of random fittings and random destroying of services (you can probably lost your ship fitting services on 75% shield and replace it only when and if you will win)
Lu Ziffer
Balanced Unity
Goonswarm Federation
#320 - 2015-07-26 12:06:30 UTC
The big question behind this how should station or space structure conquering work?
I would come up with 3 ideas

1. Hack the station disable the defences and take over the station.

2. Invade it you start a battle land troops and fight for the control of station inside and outside of it.

3. Siege the station with two options of taking over and repairing a badly damaged station or destroying it.

The first is like the new SOV System

The second is the old with some Project Legion added

The third is something which is only reasonable with stations that have defence systems and massive hp . This means if you want to destroy a station you have to bring the Dreadnaughts and Superscapitals. It is more like a last resort option if you can not get control otherwise.

In the event of station destruction I would propose that everything that has a volume of small container 100m³ and is worth more then 10000ISK per m³ is evacuate and can be retrived from a SOE holdingsite.
Everything else ressource stacks and ships gets blown up and can be retrived from the wreackage of the station.